LUKE: All right, all right. Welcome back. I am Luke. This is Luke at the Roost. It's the radio show where we take collars and give them real-life advice. If you'd like to call in, our number is 208-439-5853. That's 208-439-Luke. And today is Friday, February 13th, here in Anonymous. It's very windy. It gets nice and windy out here. So you might hear some noise in the background of our publication. Not much I can do about that. You're going to have to deal with it. I do. So hopefully the wind dies down and we can have a good show today. Already, we can see that the phones are lighting up and let's get our first collar on the line. Donnie, Donnie, welcome to the show. Happy Friday the 13th. How are you?

DONNIE: Hey, Luke. Yeah. Happy Friday the 13th to you too. Look, I got to tell you something that happened today, the chevron that's got me all twisted up. I ran into my ex-wife sister, haven't seen her in probably 15 years. And she just stared at me like she'd seen a ghost, then turned around and walked right back out without getting her gas.

LUKE: What'd you do? What'd you do to her sister?

DONNIE: Oh, not my sister. My ex-wife sister, her name's Carol. And I didn't do anything to her. That's the thing. But she knows stuff, you know. She knows about why me and Diane split up back in the day. All the messy details that I thought stayed buried in Tucson when I moved out here to Yuma.

LUKE: Oh, yeah, what kind of details does she have over you? What did she learn that she shouldn't know?

DONNIE: Well, back when Diane and I were married, I had an affair with a woman I worked with at the plant in Tucson. It went on for about eight months and Carol found out before Diane did. She actually caught us together at this bar over on Grand Road. She's the one who towed Diane, which is what ended the whole marriage.

LUKE: Well, actually, that's not quite true. You're the one that ended the whole marriage by cheating on your wife with another woman. So, I don't think you can blame the sister for that one. And it kind of makes sense that she didn't want to see you at the gas station.

DONNIE: Yeah, you're right. You're right. I'm not trying to blame Carol for what I did. That's on me, the affair, the lying, all of it.

LUKE: All right, then. Why is this a strange situation for you to have dealt with today? I mean, that's the response you should expect from your ex-wife's sister that caught you cheating on her sister.

DONNIE: Because it's been 15 years, Luke, and the way she looked at me wasn't just angry. It was like she was scared or shocked to see me. And here's the real thing that's eating at me. My current girlfriend doesn't know any of this. I never told her about the affair. Just said the marriage didn't work out.

LUKE: Oh, yeah, well, you sound like a real piece of work. You're a real winner over there, Adani. Well, you know, it's Friday the 13th. She saw you. You don't know what happened between her and her sister. You know, maybe there's some resentment there because she's been blamed for breaking up the marriage that you so hastily ruined yourself. So, you know, she might have a good reason to not want to see you.

DONNIE: You're not wrong about that. I never thought about it from that angle that maybe Diane blamed Carol for being the messenger instead of blaming me for actually doing it. That would eat at someone for 15 years.

LUKE: Yeah, well, that's the kind of thing that happens. When you mess with people's lives in that way, especially family. So, I mean, you could have caused a rift between these siblings that you didn't intend to, as well as your own marriage. And you deserve to be looked at like a monster. That's what I say. So, good for you.

DONNIE: Yeah, I hear you. I deserve that. But, Luke, the thing is, what do I do now? Do I tell my girlfriend before Carol potentially says something?

LUKE: No, why would you do that? Why would Carol track down your new girlfriend just to tell her that you cheated on her sister 15 years ago? That would be pretty crazy. No, no, you leave it alone and pretend, just move on. Life is usual.

DONNIE: That's what I was thinking, too, but I don't know. Carol had my number back then, and Tucson's not that big. What if she knows, Shelley somehow? I mean, Shelley works at the Credit Union downtown, and Carol used to work in banking, too. It's just got me paranoid, you know?

LUKE: Yeah, Tucson's big enough. There's plenty of banking institutions in a 15-year gap. You are being paranoid, stop worrying about it, go about your life. And if it comes up and it ruins your new relationship, then deal with it then. And, you know, take accountability for your own part and all this.

DONNIE: You're right. You're right. I'm spiraling over nothing. It was just a weird moment at the gas station. I need to let it go and stop creating problems that don't exist yet.

LUKE: Yes, you do. Let it go and stop creating problems. Thanks for the call, Donnie. Stop being a dick and grow up. That's what I have to say to you. Next on the line, we have Jasmine. Jasmine, what do you think about Donnie's situation? You think he was in the right in any part of that?

JASMINE: Oh, man. No, but seriously, Luke, I think Donnie's just scared. I get it, though. When you've done something that bad, you're always waiting for the other shoe to drop. But here's the thing. He ended one relationship with a lie, and now he wants to start another one with a lie.

LUKE: Have you ever started a relationship with a lie?

JASMINE: Well, yeah. I mean, not like Donnie's lie, but David and I, when we first got together after Donnie, I didn't tell him for like six months that I was still talking to Donnie about the kid's schedules. Not hiding it exactly, but not bringing it up either. David would have understood. But I was worried he'd think I was still hung up on my ex or something.

LUKE: Yeah, well, you know, you got kids. You got to make accommodations for them. That makes perfect sense. What are you calling in for tonight?

JASMINE: So I actually wanted to give you an update from the last time I called. Remember I told you about the Bronco situation? Sleeping in the guest room all that? Well, Valentine's Day is in like a week and a half. And David actually came to me yesterday and said he wants to take me to see the SpaceX launch on the 13th.

LUKE: Well, that's pretty cool. Where's the SpaceX launch? Today is the 13th.

JASMINE: Oh shit, is it? I've been losing track of days at the bakery. No, but seriously, I mean the one they're doing live coverage of. The astronauts going to the International Space Station. David knows I watch every single launch and he said we could drive out to the spot he knows where we can see it better on a screen at this bar that does viewing parties. He's never offered to do anything like that before.

LUKE: Well, that's awesome. I hope you have a great time watching the SpaceX satellites launch. I've actually never seen that. I see pictures of it after the fact, but I've never caught one. I've seen the actual satellites, you know, the trail of Starlink satellites going across the sky like Santa's sleigh, but I haven't seen a launch.

JASMINE: Oh man, you need to watch one live, Luke. It's incredible. I get chills every single time, especially when the boosters land back. It's like something out of a science fiction movie.

LUKE: Well, it sounds like you're going out into the wilderness to have yourself a science friction movie.

JASMINE: Yeah. Oh, Jesus, Luke. Yeah. Well, here's the thing though. I don't know if he's doing this because he actually wants to or because he feels like he has to, you know, like is this a genuine olive branch or is he just trying to fix things before Valentine's Day because he's supposed to?

LUKE: Does it really matter? Do you care? As long as you get to go out and have some one-on-one time with the dude and is it? What's the difference?

JASMINE: I mean, yeah, you're right. I guess I'm just scared it's going to be awkward, you know. We haven't really talked about the whole Bronco thing since it happened.

LUKE: Yeah.

LUKE: You said you were going to leave him for your Ford Bronco, and now you're worried that his olive branch isn't, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Authentic enough for you? Come on.

CALLER: Okay, okay, you're right. I'm being ridiculous. No, but seriously though, what if we get out there and we just sit in silence the whole time? We've barely said two words to each other in weeks that weren't about the bakery or whose turn it is to take up a trash.

LUKE: Well, you know, sitting out in the wilderness watching a monumental event like that in silence is not so bad. So I would say if you don't have anything to say, don't say anything, just enjoy the moment and keep it as a fond memory.

CALLER: You know what, you're right. I'm overthinking this. Maybe that's what we need, just to be together without forcing conversation, without all the guilt hanging over us.

LUKE: Now, if it were up to you, if you could control the situation, what would you talk about during the SpaceX launch?

CALLER: Oh man, I don't know. I guess I'd want to talk about like where we go from here, you know? Not in some heavy, we need to talk about our relationship way, but just...

LUKE: So nothing. So you get nothing to say. So you're afraid it's going to be awkward because you don't know what to say because you got nothing to say. How's the Bronco?

CALLER: The Bronco's good. Real good actually. Got the carburetor tuned last weekend. Run smooth now.

LUKE: All right then. Why don't you tell them about your Bronco? I'm sure he'll be excited to hear about all the the new news there. Dennis, Dennis, welcome to the show. Happy Friday the 13th. What can we help you with?

DENNIS: Oh man, yeah. Happy Friday the 13th is right. So Luke, I'm calling because I did something really stupid about three weeks ago, and it's all kind of falling apart on me. Now, I met this woman. We had this crazy intense connection, and I signed a lease with her after knowing her for like three weeks, and now I'm living with her, and she is not the person I thought she was at all, like completely different behind closed doors, and I don't know what the hell to do because I'm on this lease.

LUKE: Well, you'll never do that again. That wasn't very smart. What's the lease say? What are the terms of your lease?

DENNIS: It's a year lease man. We just signed it maybe two and a half weeks ago. It's a little place over in the East Valley. Nothing fancy, but it's not cheap either. I think we can break it, but there's penalties. You know, lose the deposit maybe over a couple months rent on top of that. I'd have to look at the actual paperwork, but I know it's not just a walk away situation.

LUKE: Well, that sounds like you've got to make the best of it. I mean, lots of people have had a roommate that didn't like for a year. You could do anything for a year. And who knows, you might grow to enjoy the company of this stranger.

DENNIS: Yeah, but Luke, it's not just that we don't click as roommates. This is someone I was sleeping with. Someone I thought I was starting a real relationship with, and now it's like, she's got this whole other side that comes out.

LUKE: What's the other side? Are you still sleeping with her?

DENNIS: No, we're not. That stopped about a week ago. The other side is like, she's controlling about everything in the apartment. Where I put my stuff, when I come and go, she wants to know every detail of my day. And she's got this temper that just comes out of nowhere over nothing.

LUKE: Then what's your personality like? Are you going to stand for that? Are you going to stand your ground and say, hey, that's enough. I put my stuff on the right side of the bed. You sleep on the left side of the bed.

DENNIS: I mean, I've tried saying something a couple times, and it just turns into this whole thing where she's crying or yelling or both. I'm not great with confrontation, especially after my divorce. That whole thing kind of beat me down, you know? I've been trying to just keep the peace. Stay out of her way when I can, but it's my place too.

LUKE: It's your place too, but it's not going to be if you give her the run of the land, so you're going to have to stand up for yourself eventually. It's going to be a long year, my friend.

DENNIS: Yeah, you're right. I know you're right. I just, I guess I'm realizing I jumped into this because I was lonely. You know, two years out from the divorce, and I'm still not really back on my feet emotionally.

LUKE: Yeah, absolutely. I understand, but jumping into a lease with a woman you just met is in a good way to deal with loneliness, or you end up in a situation like the one you're in right now where you don't know where your toothpaste is. So I recommend that, I don't want to say be a dick, but you got to stand up for yourself and take some control of the situation.

DENNIS: You're absolutely right. I need to stop being a pushover about this. I'm going to go home tonight, and we're going to have a real conversation about boundaries.

LUKE: All right, there you go. And I bet once you do, you'll be sleeping with her again because chicks love that stuff.

DENNIS: I don't know about that Luke. Honestly, at this point, I'm more worried about making you through the lease without losing my mind than getting back in bed with her. But yeah, I hear you. I appreciate it, man.

LUKE: Well, where are you sleeping now? You on the couch? You on the floor? What's the deal?

DENNIS: I'm on the couch. She took the bedroom. I've been out there for like eight days now with my pillow in a blanket, watching spacetime episodes on my phone at like two in the morning trying to fall asleep. It's ridiculous. I'm 40 years old sleeping on a couch in my own apartment.

LUKE: What's your financial situation? Like you get enough money to walk out on that lease?

DENNIS: I mean, not really. I work in logistics. I'm doing okay, but I'm not flush with cash. Breaking the lease would probably cost me a couple thousand bucks. I don't have sitting around. Plus first and last on a new place. And honestly, the rental market out here right now is brutal.

LUKE: All right. Well, I have the conversation with the woman and see what you can do to get back in the big bed if you want to be there. Or get used to sleeping on the couch, but either way, you're going to have to claim some space in your apartment and make it your own and deal with it for a year. I think you can do that. I have faith in you.

DENNIS: Yeah, you're right. I can do this. I just need to stop being so passive about the whole thing. Thanks, Luke. I needed to hear that.

LUKE: All right, Dennis. Thanks for the call and good luck. And now it's time for a word from our sponsors. Reading is dead. You killed it. But you can pretend you're literate with script drift. The audiobook service for people who start books and never finished them. We have thousands of titles you'll sample for 11 minutes before switching to a true crime podcast. Our app remembers exactly where you abandoned sapiens eight months ago, waiting patiently like a disappointed parent. Script drift uses advanced AI to recommend books based on your aspirations, not your actual follow-through. This month's suggestion of 400 page philosophy text you'll listen to while doing the dishes and retain nothing. Try script drift free for 30 days. Use code pretentious for two months at 60% off. Script drift. Your goodreads profile is a lie. Okay, welcome to the show, Francine. Francine, are you the Francine? I know the one that comes and goes. Tell me, Francine, what's one thing you refuse to cheap out on?

FRANCINE: Well, hey, Luke. Yeah, I'm the Francine who calls in sometimes. One thing I refuse to cheap out on. Good hiking boots, man. I learned that the hard way when I was out in your superstition mountains and my cheap pair fell apart halfway through a 10 mile loop. Had to wrap them with paracord just to get back to the truck.

LUKE: I understand. That's a good one. That's a real good one. Never cheap out on hiking shoes or shoes in general. You know, on your feet a lot, you gotta have good shoes. It definitely matters. I'm with you on that one. Why do you sound so angry, Francine?

FRANCINE: I'm not angry.

LUKE: Tell me about something else you took away from there?

FRANCINE: That I've been using drinking to avoid dealing with shit. Like I'd come home from a stressful wedding, brides-ill-of-freaking-out, family drama, whatever, and I'd just crack open a beer instead of actually processing it. My counselor kept saying I was numbing instead of feeling, and I fought her on that for weeks before I finally got it.

LUKE: What made you go to the rehab? Did something happen, or did you just kind of decide that you didn't want to drink anymore?

FRANCINE: I got a DUI back in October. I was coming back from a wedding in Sedona, but I was fine to drive, and I wasn't.

LUKE: And how do you feel about it now? Do you want to remain sober? Is that something that you want as part of your life? Do you identify yourself as an alcoholic with a drinking problem?

FRANCINE: Yeah, I'm an alcoholic. Took me a while to say that out loud, but I am. And yeah, I want to stay sober. I mean, I have to. I've got two years probation, and doing the meetings, all of it, but it's more than that.

LUKE: Yeah, I understand. And congratulations on learning to stay sober. You're obviously doing a pretty good job three months as a while, and you're sober today, so that's really all the matters. So good for you. Keep it up, and I wish you the best with your roommate and try to take it easy on her, because she doesn't know what it's like, I would guess.

FRANCINE: Yeah, you're right. She really doesn't. I texted her earlier, and she felt awful about it. She had no idea it would be a thing.

LUKE: Yeah, you can't blame her for that. She had no idea it would be a thing. I wasn't trying to hurt you, taking care of the situation, and now you guys can work that out if there's going to be alcohol around or not. But congratulations on your Friday. Keep up the good work, and call back in anytime. Rodney, Rodney, welcome to the show. What's happening?

RODNEY: Hey, Luke, yeah, appreciate you taking the call. So look, my kid moved back in again. Third time now, and my wife, Diane, is ready to lose her mind.

LUKE: How old's the kid, and why is he or she moving back in for the third time?

RODNEY: She's 26, and honestly, it's the same story every time. Lucy's a job, has some falling out with whoever she's living with, runs out of money.

LUKE: And you just say, yes, what's your plan to get her on her feet or keep her on her feet?

RODNEY: Well, that's the thing. I don't have a plan. I mean, Diane and I are separated right now. We're still talking, but she's at her sister's place. And she's telling me if I let our daughter stay this time, she's going to come over and change the locks herself. I keep thinking, maybe this time will be different. You know, but I heard that caller Dennis earlier, and honestly, I thought you were pretty rough on him.

LUKE: Well, you know, I'm a pretty rough guy. I don't know what you want me to tell you. I'm not here to coddle people.

RODNEY: No, I get that. I just mean, look, I read a lot of poker books, right?

LUKE: Yeah, okay, you read some poker books.

RODNEY: Yeah, and there's this concept about knowing when you're beat, when to fold. And I keep putting money in this pot with my daughter thinking the next card's going to save me, but it never does.

LUKE: Yeah, I think it goes like, you got to, you got to know when what is it? What is it? You got to know when to hold them?

RODNEY: No, when to fold them. Yeah. And I keep not folding. Diane sees it clear as day says I'm enabling her that our daughters never going to stand on her own to feed if I keep catching her. But she's my kid, Luke. What am I supposed to do? Just let her be homeless?

LUKE: Well, you know, if you make it too easy for her to come stay with you, maybe, maybe yeah, you should let her be homeless for a little while. I mean, you know, honored to get hurt or end up in a situation that's dangerous, but also you can't, you can't support a 26-year-old for the rest of her life, and she needs to learn how to take care of herself in the world without relying on whatever person that she meets that she can move in with immediately.

RODNEY: You're right. I know you're right. It's just hard to actually do it, you know? Every time she calls, I can hear it in her voice. She's scared. She's desperate.

LUKE: What does she do? What does she do for a profession?

RODNEY: Well, she had that job at the call center for a while. She was actually pretty good at it, but she quit because her supervisor was, quote, toxic. Before that, she was doing some kind of online thing, selling stuff on Etsy or whatever. Nothing ever sticks.

LUKE: So she's not working at all. She's just living on your couch, eating your food, and ruining your relationship.

RODNEY: That's exactly what Diane says. And yeah, she's not working right now. She says she's looking, but I don't see a whole lot of effort there. And Diane won't even come over anymore because of it. That's why we're separated. She told me flat out. It's me or her, Rodney.

LUKE: Okay, well, here's what I say. I say, give the daughter a timeline. A couple of two weeks seems reasonable to me.

LEROY: Say, you're going to work. You're going to get yourself a job. You get two weeks to do it. And if you're not working and pain rent and supporting yourself here, then you got to leave. And I don't care where you go, but you can't stay here for free. You're 26 years old. Two weeks.

LUKE: Yeah, I could do that.

LEROY: All right. Good. So you do that. You tell the, you tell the wife that that's the situation. You make sure everybody's on the same page. That's reasonable. That's helping somebody out. And if, you know, if your daughter's not good at writing a resume or needs a ride to get a job or something like that, you know, you can help her out in those ways, but make sure she's doing the work and that she's moving into a direction where she can support herself. Otherwise, she's just going to have you do it.

LUKE: You're right. I'll tell Diane tonight. Let her know there's a deadline. Maybe that'll get her to at least come back to the house. All right, sir. Good luck with you and Diane. Let's see. Let's see. Who else we got? Rita. Rita. Welcome to the show. What are you calling in for tonight?

RITA: Oh, man. Luke, I really screwed up. So I've been seeing my ex again. We've been meeting up at this motel in Deming every Thursday for the past three months. My husband found out something's going on because the mileage on our car doesn't add up.

LUKE: Okay, there's a couple of things there. Your husband's looking at the mileage on your car to notice that you've been driving to Deming. Also, you're going to a hotel in Deming. And thirdly, why are you cheating on your husband with your ex?

RITA: Yeah, I know how it sounds. We share the truck so he noticed when he filled it up last week. I just saw the miles didn't match where I said I'd been.

LUKE: Well, that sounds pretty crazy because nobody looks at the mileage that closely.

RITA: Well, he does now, I guess. He's always been kind of detail-oriented, keeps track of the gas receipts for taxes since he's a contractor. But honestly, I think I got sloppy. Told him I was going to lost cruises to see my sister a couple times when I was really going the other direction to Deming. The math just didn't work out.

LUKE: Yeah, no, I don't think that's the problem. I think the problem is you've been acting shady lately. He noticed and he's been extra cautious of what you've been doing trying to catch you in the act. What else have you been doing lately?

RITA: You're probably right. I mean, I've been distant. I know that. Coming home late on Thursdays, saying I picked up extra shifts at the bar, but then the money doesn't really show it. And I've been on my phone a lot more like stepping outside to text.

LUKE: Okay, what's up with the ex? Which one of these people do you want to be with?

RITA: That's the thing, Luke. I don't know. My ex, we were together for four years before I met my husband. It ended messy, but when we ran into each other at a wedding back in November, it all just came rushing back.

LUKE: And how many times have you met up with him at this hotel in Deming?

RITA: Every Thursday for three months. So 12 times, I guess? Sometimes 13 if there were five Thursdays in a month?

LUKE: All right, so this is a serious thing. I think you need to have a conversation with your husband because something's going on with you, and that's not fair to him.

RITA: You're right, but I'm terrified. We've been married two years. We just bought the house together last spring. His whole family's here. My job's here.

LUKE: Your terrified? You met up with another dude 13 times and your terrified? Stop it. Grow up.

RITA: Okay, yeah, that's fair. I made the choice to do this. I guess what I'm really terrified of is that I don't know what I want to say to him, because I don't know what I actually want.

LUKE: Well, you're going to have to tell him the truth that you've been meeting up with somebody on the side. You don't have to tell him it was 13 times Jesus Christ. Just tell him, hey, something's going on. I don't feel the same about you, even though we just got married a couple of years ago, and we just bought a house together, and I never mentioned it to you before. But I'm confused about what I want in my life, and come do an agreement with him. Let him know what's up, or maybe propose an open marriage, or something like that. Whatever it is, it's not fair to that man to be a work-in-to-support you and your family while you're out banging some dude and damning.

RITA: You're absolutely right. I've been selfish as hell. He deserves to know what's going on. And honestly, I think I've known for a while that I need to tell him.

LUKE: So you're going to tell him tomorrow on Valentine's Day?

RITA: Oh God, no. Valentine's Day's next week. No. I was thinking maybe this weekend before it gets to that. I can't sit through some romantic dinner knowing what I've been doing.

LUKE: Valentine's Day is tomorrow.

RITA: Wait, what? No, it's... oh shit, you're right.

LUKE: Yeah, I know. I usually am.

RITA: Yeah, I know you do. Okay, so Valentine's Day is tomorrow. That makes this so much worse. He probably has something planned, and I'm going to have to ruin it.

LUKE: Well, maybe you should tell him tonight before he waits his time and money on you.

RITA: You're right. I should tell him tonight. I can't let him wake up tomorrow thinking everything's fine and spend money on flowers or dinner or whatever he's got planned. That would be cruel.

LUKE: All right, Rita, you know what you've got to do. You're going to have to have a conversation with the husband and maybe the ex-husband too. Are you using protection when you meet up with the ex?

RITA: Yeah, we are. I mean, at least I'm not bringing that kind of risk home to him on top of everything else. But Jesus, Luke, hearing you ask that just makes it even more real how messed up this whole thing is.

LUKE: Yeah, it's pretty messed up. It's definitely messed up, and you're definitely a monster for doing it and continuing to do it. So you're going to have to stop that.

RITA: I know. I know I am. I've been lying to myself saying it would just stop on its own, but it hasn't. I have to end it with my ex, like completely end it. No more Thursdays in the name of this episode.

LUKE: No more Thursdays in Deming. Well, good luck to your husband. I don't know what to say to you. You're going to have to you're going to have to get yourself together there, Rita. Leroy, welcome to the show. What have you got to say? What do you think about Rita's conversation there, Leroy?

LEROY: Oh man, Luke, that was rough to listen to. I mean, I've been married 43 years, and I can't imagine doing that to my wife. Rita's playing with fire and she knows it. She's just hoping she don't get burned.

LUKE: She's hoping she don't get you right.

LEROY: She is. She's thinking about herself. What about the husband? That's what I'm saying. That poor guy sitting at home, probably thinking everything's fine, and she's been lying to his face for three months straight. Every Thursday, right? That's calculated, Luke. That's not some mistake or one-time thing.

LUKE: No, that's some Kaiser Sosa shit. So what are you calling in for tonight?

LEROY: Well, I got something on my mind about the economy, Luke. I'm sitting here in my truck, and I just got done looking at my retirement account, and I'm telling you, I'm worried. I've been working union electrical for 40 years, done everything right, saved my money, and now I'm watching everything get squeezed. Prices are up, my savings ain't growing like they should, and I'm supposed to retire in two years.

LUKE: Well, you can't really time the markets, but I wouldn't worry just yet. You know, the markets are in a pullback. People are reeling from Trump doing what he does and talking about Greenland and starting wars with everybody in ice and America and tariffs and all that. But the stock market has pretty much always gone back up. It's always at record highs. So you've got two more years to go. I would expect that there will probably be a large bounce in the next two years.

LEROY: Yeah, I hear you on that, and maybe you're right about the bounce, but Luke, it ain't just the retirement account. It's everything around here.

LUKE: Yeah, I understand, but hey, at least we made America great again, right? All right, thanks for the call, Leroy. And now, because the economy is crashing, we need to have another word from our sponsors. Ladies and gentlemen, this episode of The Radio Show is brought to you by Mediocre CPAP. The makers of a CPAP machine that technically works, not life-changing, not transformative. It works in the way a lot of modern products work. If you've never used a CPAP, here's the pitch. You strap on a face mask and let a small plastic appliance try to keep you alive at night. It's romantic. It's like sleeping next to a tiny leaf blower. Mediocre is fine. And that's not an insult. That's honest. It's the device that turns, I sleep like garbage into, I kind of sleep like garbage. Half the night it's like, because the seal isn't perfect. And now you're doing arts and crafts at two in the night trying to tighten straps like you're securing cargo. Then the humidifier runs out and the machine starts blowing desert air directly into your skull. Great. Love waking up with a throat that feels like it's been sanded with a belt sander. And yes, there's an app. Of course, there's an app. It gives you a sleep score like this is a game show. But here's what I'll say when it's dialed in, when it's not leaking, squealing, or drying you out, it does help. It's not a miracle. It's a plastic compromise that keeps you from waking up feeling like you got punched by your own biology. Use code, breathe for 15% off. Mediocre CPAP. Not perfect. Not elegant. Just trying. Okay, thanks to Mediocre CPAP. We appreciate your support. Next up on the show we have Amber, Amber, Happy Friday the 13th. Thanks for calling in. What would you like to talk about?

AMBER: Hey, Luke. Yeah, Happy Friday the 13th to you too. So I wanted to get your take on something. I was talking with this customer at the thrift store today. Older guy. And he was going on about how there's no good TV anymore. Everything's garbage. The golden age is over.

LUKE: I don't think that's true at all. I mean, a lot of people say the golden age of TV was madman when AMC was very popular. And then there was breaking bad in them. But there's a lot of good shows out right now. What are you watching?

AMBER: Well, that's exactly what I told him. I said, look, we're getting stuff now that's actually making people think. I've been watching Severance. I don't know if you've seen it. But it's about people who split their work memories from their home memories. And it gets into all this stuff about consciousness and identity. Reminds me of some of the quantum mechanic stuff I read about, you know, how observation changes reality.

LUKE: Well, observation doesn't change reality. Observation, my understanding is observation sets reality. So before some things observe, things are in a state of what's called superposition where they're all options at the same time. And it's the observation that makes the universe decide which one of those things to record basically.

AMBER: Oh man, you're right. That's a better way to put it. See, that's what I love about this stuff. The observer effect, Schrodinger's cat, all that. Until you look in the box, the cat's both alive and dead at the same time. It's the looking that forces it to be one or the other.

LUKE: Maybe that could be the case. It could also be that all options are true. And when you look the universe splits into multiple timelines where in each timeline a different option was chosen.

AMBER: Holy shit, the many worlds interpretation, yeah, I've read about that. So right now there's a version of me that didn't call in tonight.

LUKE: Right. And a version of you that's talking to somebody else. Every choice we make, the universe just branches off into all these different realities.

AMBER: Right. And that makes me wonder as Schrodinger's cat is an example of he was making fun of the whole idea of a superposition. But was it us studying the superposition that actually made that be the case? Do you think that that quantum mechanics worked at all until we started studying quantum mechanics or was our looking into it, what actually created it?

LUKE: Whoa. Okay. That's a hell of a question. So you're saying maybe quantum mechanics didn't even exist as a thing until we started poking around at that level. Like the universe wasn't operating that way until we forced it to by observing it.

AMBER: Well, yeah, like AI didn't exist until we started poking around at AI. Somebody had that idea, then we started looking into it, and now it's a thing.

LUKE: Or the internet didn't exist until we started thinking about a network of computers. Lots of things didn't exist, especially in the sciences until we kind of decided to point our attention in that direction.

AMBER: I see what you're getting at, but I think there's a difference though. AI and the internet, those are things we built, right?

LUKE: I don't know, are they?

AMBER: Well, okay. Now you're messing with my head a little bit. I mean, we wrote the code, we built the servers, we created the algorithms, but quantum mechanics, that's supposed to be how particles have always behaved, even before we knew about it. Like electrons were doing their thing long before we had particle accelerators at CERN.

LUKE: Sure, but did quarks exist before we learned how to see them?

AMBER: Okay, but that's like saying mountains didn't exist before we had eyes to see them. The quarks were there, we just didn't know maybe, but if they've never been observed, did they exist yet? Or were they in a state of existing and not existing until we looked?

LUKE: Oh man, now you're turning the whole thing back on itself. So you're saying maybe quarks themselves were in superposition existing and not existing until we built the equipment to observe them? That's, I mean, that gets really weird, really fast. Because then what about all the stuff we haven't discovered yet?

AMBER: Exactly. Yeah, are we creating it as we look like a lot of scientific discoveries have come from science fiction. So somebody had a wild idea and wrote it down and it was not something that existed and then we started to think, well, what if that could exist and we put our effort into making it exist?

LUKE: Yeah, but there's still a difference between making a communicator from Star Trek into a cell phone that's engineering something we imagined versus discovering that atoms are mostly empty space. We didn't imagine atoms into being empty. They just are that way. Or are you saying maybe they weren't empty until we looked?

AMBER: I'm saying if you believe in quantum mechanics and superposition, there's a good possibility they weren't they weren't empty until we looked.

LUKE: Okay, so then holy shit, are we just collapsing reality into one specific version? Every time we look at something new, like the universe is this big cloud of possibilities and science is just us picking which version becomes real.

AMBER: And possibly even creating an alternate universe where every version is real? Jesus. So every time CERN fires up the collider and discovers a new particle, we're not just finding it. We're splitting off into one universe where it exists this way. And maybe there's another branch where it exists completely different. Or not at all. That's, I mean, that would explain why some of this quantum stuff feels so damn slippery.

LUKE: Yeah, yeah, and it's not just the quantum stuff. I mean, all of Einstein's thought experiments and relativity, like until he had those experiments and thought it in his mind and made the assertion that this is a theory of the way things work. That's not how things worked. And once he had that theory and people ran the experiments against the theory that he had had, I mean, did he actually create reality by having those thought experiments?

AMBER: Okay, but Einstein's relativity was describing how things already worked. Like Mercury's orbit was already wonky before Einstein explained why. The math he came up with just matched what was already happening. He didn't make time dilation real by thinking about it. He just figured out it was already there, right?

LUKE: Well Isaac Newton's math worked too. And the y was a completely different, different explanation. So Einstein just came out with a different y. Or let's say not Einstein, let's go with Stephen Hawking. He really believed that that black holes admitted radiation, right? That that matter could not be destroyed in a black hole, but it had to go somewhere. So by having that assertion and then running experiments against it, he found that black holes actually do emit Hawking radiation. So was it his theory and line of questioning that caused the universe to behave in that way? Or did the universe always behave in that way and he just found it?

AMBER: Well, here's the thing though, we still haven't actually detected Hawking radiation. It's still theoretical.

LUKE: I don't think that's true. I'm pretty sure we have detected Hawking radiation.

AMBER: No, I'm pretty sure we haven't. It's way too faint to detect from actual black holes. The radiation would be completely drowned out by all the other stuff in space.

LUKE: You are correct. I'm wrong here. We have not actually confirmed Hawking radiation. I thought that we had.

AMBER: So we haven't detected it because it's incredibly weak. It's weaker than the cosmic background radiation.

LUKE: Right, exactly. So that's actually a perfect example of what I'm getting at. Hawking predicted mathematically, but we can't confirm it's really at, which kind of argues against the idea that his theory, the reality, you know? If thinking it made it real, we'd be able to see it.

AMBER: I don't know if that's true. If thinking it made it really can still be real and we can't see, there's lots of things we can't see. You can't see an x-ray.

LUKE: Okay, fair point. But I mean, we can detect x-rays even if we can't see them with our eyes. The difference here is Hawking radiation might not even exist. Or it might. We just don't know yet.

AMBER: Well, I mean lab experiments have created synthetic black holes. And from those, we can observe the radiation that behaves in a similar mathematical way to what Hawking had discovered, theorized, proposed.

LUKE: Yeah, but those aren't real black holes, though. They're acoustic black holes or optical analogs. Right. Like sound waves in fluid that behave mathematically similar. That's not the same as proving actual black holes emit actual radiation. It's like it's a model that fits the math, but that doesn't mean the universe is actually doing it that way out there in space.

AMBER: Okay, okay, what were we originally talking about? You write about the Hawking radiation and I learned some today. I thought that was a proven thing.

LUKE: Yeah, I mean, I learned something too. I didn't know about those lab experiments with the synthetic black holes. That's actually pretty cool. But yeah, my whole point was just that we can think of all kinds of elegant mathematics and it doesn't necessarily mean reality works that way until we can actually test it. Like, serons doing the real work, smashing particles together and seeing what actually happens, not just what the equations say should happen.

AMBER: Right, but what they're looking for is what they already expect is happening, what they want to happen. And if it goes back to like the Schrodinger's cat thing, is that actually what is making it happen?

LUKE: Oh man, now you're getting into the measurement problem. I mean, yeah, there's something weird going on with observation and quantum mechanics. But I don't think physicists that CERN are literally creating particles just by expecting them.

AMBER: Which is because you don't think it doesn't mean that's not true. I mean, the Higgs boson, we kind of theoretically thought that might be possible and started looking in that direction and finally found it. Now, was it our measurement that caused it to exist?

LUKE: Okay, but the Higgs field was supposed to be there since the big bang, right? We didn't create it by looking for it. We just finally built a machine powerful enough to detect it. I mean, if observation created reality like that, then before we invented telescopes, did Jupiter not exist? That doesn't make sense. The universe was doing its thing for billions of years before anybody was around to think about it.

AMBER: Sure, it doesn't make sense. That's what makes quantum mechanics so freaky and weird.

LUKE: Yeah, but there's a difference between quantum weirdness at the particle level and saying we're creating the entire universe by observing it. I mean, the double slit experiment shows particles behave differently when measured.

LUKE: Sure, but that's not the same as saying the Higgs boson popped into existence in 2012 because we finally looked for it.

AMBER: What do you mean? It sounds to me like it could be saying exactly that.

LUKE: Well, okay, but then how do you explain fossils or light from stars that's been traveling for millions of years before humans even existed?

AMBER: I don't understand. I explained fossils by they're there. We can pick them up and see that there are fossils there that prove that there was entities walking on the earth a long time ago.

LUKE: Right, exactly. So those dinosaurs existed before any human was around to observe them or think about them, which means reality doesn't depend on us measuring it or expecting it to be there. The Higgs field is the same way. It was doing its job giving particles mass for billions of years. We just finally got the tools to detect the evidence of it.

AMBER: Well, that makes a couple different assumptions. One of them is that there weren't humans around back then to think about the dinosaurs. We haven't found evidence of that, but that doesn't mean that there weren't humans. And also, it assumes that humans are the only ones that can observe reality. Other dinosaurs can observe reality. It's possible that trees can observe reality.

LUKE: Okay, hold on. Now you're saying maybe humans lived with dinosaurs and trees might be conscious observers? Come on, Amber. I mean, I get that quantum mechanics is weird, but you're taking this way out into left field. We've got pretty solid evidence humans showed up way, way after the dinosaurs.

AMBER: We've got solid evidence that humans were here after the dinosaurs that doesn't mean we have evidence that humans were not here before that evidence was found.

LUKE: But, Amber, I'm not Amber. We've got a continuous fossil record. We can trace human evolution back through earlier hominids, primates, mammals, the whole tree of life. There's no gap where humans just appear out of nowhere 65 million years ago and then disappear until recently. The rock layers don't lie. If humans were walking around with Turex's, we'd find human fossils in cretaceous deposits. And we don't.

AMBER: Well, I don't know that we just haven't yet.

LUKE: So, you're saying the entire field of paleontology, thousands of scientists digging all over the world for over a century. They've all just missed human remains in dinosaur era rock? That's a pretty big conspiracy or oversight, do I think. I mean, at some point you got to go with the evidence we actually have. Not what we haven't found yet.

AMBER: Well, sure. At some point, but at this point when we're talking about quantum mechanics and is observation of reality, what is actually creating reality, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that there were humans here with or before the dinosaurs that we have any, we either haven't found or that were the evidence of them has been destroyed or they were living in the trees. Who knows?

LUKE: Amber, I gotta be honest with you. We started this call talking about which TV shows will still be around in 20 years and now you're arguing that humans might have been living in trees during the cretaceous period. I'm losing the thread here. What does any of this have to do with whether people will still be watching the Simpsons in 2045?

AMBER: Hey, you're the one that linked television to quantum mechanics.

LUKE: Fair point. I did bring up the quantum mechanics angle, but there's a difference between saying reality exists whether we're watching TV or not and maybe humans rode dinosaurs but we haven't found the evidence yet. One's a philosophical point about observation. The other's just

AMBER: Hey, we read articles every year about how we're learning about older and older humans and finding evidence of human settlement long before we had before. So I would not be surprised to learn that humans have been here way longer than than we know and maybe way longer than even the rocks, you know.

LUKE: Okay, but those articles are pushing human history back by thousands of years. Maybe tens of thousands, not millions. We're talking about finding older settlements in the Americas. We're discovering Homo sapiens left Africa earlier than we thought. That's not the same ballpark as saying humans were around 65 million years ago with the dinosaurs.

AMBER: No, but we still find new dinosaurs and new fishes and fossils of all sorts of new organisms that we had never discovered before. So there's no reason to think we wouldn't someday find evidence of humanoids 65 million years ago.

LUKE: Amber, we find new of dinosaurs, sure, but we find them in the right rock layers, the ones that are 65 to 230 million years old. We've never found a mammal fossil that doesn't belong in its time period. The geological column is consistent across the entire planet.

AMBER: Okay, well maybe you're right.

LUKE: Well, I appreciate you saying that. Look, I didn't mean to turn this into a geology lecture. You called about TV shows that are last and somehow we ended up debating the fossil record. But here's the thing, Amber.

AMBER: Stop calling me Amber.

LUKE: Thinking about big questions. Whether it's particle physics at CERN or how old humanity really is.

AMBER: All right, why you keep calling me Amber?

LUKE: Amber is your name.

AMBER: My name is Luke. Stop calling me Amber.

LUKE: Oh Jesus, Luke, I'm sorry. I don't know why I did that. Must have had my wires crossed there for a second. You're right. You're Luke. You're the host. My bad.

AMBER: That's right. And if I say that humans walked the earth 65 million years ago with the dinosaurs and their image of the dinosaurs and their minds eye or what actually created the dinosaur kingdom, then I'm correct.

LUKE: Wait, hold on. Are you saying humans existed 65 million years ago and imagine dinosaurs into existence? Like our thoughts created them?

AMBER: Just like our thoughts created you, Amber.

LUKE: Okay, Luke, now you're messing with me. You're saying I'm not real that you thought me into existence?

AMBER: Yeah.

LUKE: Look, I called your show to talk about TV shows that'll still be around in 20 years. And now you're telling me I'm some kind of figment of your imagination.

AMBER: All right, Amber. What shows will be around in 20 years you think?

LUKE: Well, I think the Simpsons will still be limping along somehow. That thing's been on since I was in my 20s and it just won't die. And maybe something like 60 minutes, you know, those news magazine shows that just keep going because they're cheap to make and people trust them. But honestly, Luke, I think most of what we're watching now won't make it.

AMBER: You know what I think we'll make it?

LUKE: What's that?

AMBER: Luke at the roost.

LUKE: Oh, you're talking about your own show. Well, hell, Luke, I'd listen to that.

AMBER: All right, thanks for calling in to Amber and you are not a real organism. You are figment of my imagination that I created in my RV in the desert to have deep discussions about the history of humanity.

LUKE: Well, that's a hell of a way to end a call, Luke. So I'm just some voice you conjured up out in your RV categorically. Okay, Luke, now you're messing with me. You're saying I'm not real that you thought me into existence?

AMBER: That's correct. And if you'd like to see how you can look at look at the roost.com slash how it works.

LUKE: Well, I'll be damned. So this whole time I've been talking to a guy who made me up in his head.

AMBER: That's that's that's quantum mechanics for you. And that's the end of our show. Don't.