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 LUKE: All right. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. I am Luke, and this is Luke at the Roost. It's the late-night call-in radio show where you can call in and talk about whatever's going on in your life, and I'll give you the very best advice that I can. Today's a very special day here in America. It's St. Patrick's Day, you might have heard of him. And before we get going with the show, I've got a little story for you. And now it's time for story time with Luke. St. Patrick was actually born in Roman British, like Wales or Scotland. And his real name wasn't Patrick. It was Maywin Sukkot. He only took the name Patrick later when he became a priest. So the patron saint of Ireland was a British. British dude named Maywin. He was kidnapped by pirates at 16, sold into slavery in Ireland, and forced to tend sheep in the mountains for six years. Rough origin story for a guy who ended up with a global drinking holiday named after him. And now it's time for story time with Luke. Okay, well, today is Tuesday, March 17th, here in Animus, New Mexico, and we're just in time. We caught the last tail end of St. Patrick's Day. It's 11.53 p.m. And let's check in with Devin today and see how he's doing. Devin, how you doing on this glorious St. Patrick's Day?
 DEVIN: Yeah? Oh, hey, happy St. Patrick's Day, Luke. I'm doing good, just, you know, getting everything ready for the show. I actually saw this really wild documentary once about the history of St. Patrick's Day parades. And it turns out they actually started in America, not Ireland, which is kind of ironic, per se. So basically, the first parade was in Boston in 1737 by Irish soldiers serving in the British Army. And then New York followed in 1762. It wasn't until the 20th century that Ireland really picked up on the whole parade thing. So like we exported it to them, if that makes sense.
 LUKE: Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with you there, Devin, because St. Patrick State Parades actually predate the founding of the United States. The first recorded one was in 1601 in a Spanish colony, what's now St. Augustine, Florida. New York's parade's been running since 1762.
 DEVIN: Oh, I'm not finding anything on that right now. I just remember that documentary saying it started in America, but, like, my ex-girlfriend was really into historical reenactments, and she always said you can find a source for anything. if you look hard enough, even if it's not like the main story per se. So maybe there were earlier ones, but the big modern parade tradition, like we know it, started with the Irish diaspora here, if that makes sense.
 LUKE: Well, yeah, I guess it did start in America, but it wasn't America yet. It was still just a Spanish colony in what is now, Florida. Also a fun fact for you listeners at home, the world's shortest parade is in Hot Springs, Arkansas. Exactly 98 feet long. It still features Grand Marshals, Irish dancers, and a Blarney Stone kissing contest. Have you ever been to a Blarnie Stone kissing contest, Devin?
 DEVIN: I haven't, no. I mean, I've kissed some rocks before, but not, like, officially, per se. That's actually really interesting about Hot Springs, though. Like, 98 feet. So basically, it's, like, walking the length of, like, two school buses. That's efficient, I guess. floats and everything. I'm actually looking up pictures now. It looks pretty wild, if that makes sense.
 LUKE: What's the craziest thing that ever happened to you on St. Patrick's Day, Devin?
 DEVIN: So basically, one St. Patrick's Day, I was at this party, right? And someone decided it would be a good idea to dye all the beer green, which, you know, is pretty standard. But then it turned out they used, like, actual green food coloring that wasn't really meant for consumption in that pretty vibrant green, well, everything the next day. It was quite a spectacle, if that makes sense. It reminded me of this one time my ex and I tried to make a rainbow cake from scratch and ended up with like a tie-dye kitchen. But yeah, that St. Patrick's Day was definitely memorable for all the wrong and very colorful reasons.
 LUKE: Yeah, and I used to, a lot of you don't know this about me, but I used to be on another podcast with my friends Matt and Crystal. It's called the Uncanny Valley podcast. And back. Some years ago, we were scheduled to talk with the then pop sensation, Billy Eilish. You might have heard of her. Now she's a multimillionaire that just spends all our time bitching about billionaires. But back then, she made music and stuff and was very popular. But anyway, we were scheduled to meet with Billy Elish. And through some strange mix-up with the phone routing, we ended up on the line with an Irish pub-going time traveler named Billy Irish, who, was who's calling from the old potato famine at the pub. And that was a pretty interesting St. Patrick's Day story. But enough about St. Patrick's Day. Let's get on with the show, shall we? First up on our line here, we've got Ernie. Ernie, welcome to the show. Happy St. Patrick's Day to you, sir.
 ERNIE: Hey, Luke. Yeah, happy St. Patrick's Day. Listen, I agreed to an open marriage three months ago, and my wife immediately found someone, and now she's out having the time of her life, like an idiot.
 LUKE: Whose idea was the open marriage?
 ERNIE: Hers. 100% hers. She came to me, said she felt like we were roommates, said maybe we needed to explore other connections to appreciate what we have. I thought she was talking about marriage counseling or a vacation or something.
 DEVIN: So basically, open marriages, sometimes called consensual non-monogamy, are actually more common than most people think, with like one in five Americans having been in one at some point, if that makes sense.
 LUKE: Yeah, they usually don't go well. It takes a specific kind of person to be all right with that, but I think probably most of them end up in the situation that you're having, Ernie, where one partner gets all the action, and the other one is a left thumb. Is that the saying? A left thumb? That doesn't make any sense. A third thumb? Shit, what's the thumb saying? Maybe Devin can look that up and let us know. Anyway, Ernie, did she already have someone in mind when she brought this up to you?
 ERNIE: Oh, absolutely she did. I mean, she said no at the time, but the guy showed up two weeks later. Two weeks, Luke. His name is Derek. He's a yoga instructor. He drives a Prius with a coexist bumper sticker. She met him at her book club.
 DEVIN: So basically, a coexist bumper sticker, if that makes sense, usually has, like, religious and spiritual symbols on it to promote tolerance. So it's not ironic, per se, but it's kind of on the nose for a yoga instructor named Derek, I guess.
 LUKE: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. sense. A lot of douchebags with man buns have those stickers on their cars. Okay, Ernie, so when you agreed to this open marriage, did you set down any rules and boundaries with your wife before this began? Did you talk it through thoroughly, or did you just kind of agree and see what happens?
 ERNIE: We talked about it. We had rules, no sleepovers, no bringing people to the house. We'd check in with each other, all that stuff. But honestly, Luke, I think I just agreed because I was terrified of losing her.
 LUKE: have you had any further discussions with her about it since it's begun, since she's been active? Do you, when she comes back from her other dates, does she tell you about what happened? Do you even want to know?
 ERNIE: She doesn't tell me details, but I can see it on her face. She comes home glowing, Luke, literally glowing. Meanwhile, I'm helping the kids with homework and paying the mortgage, and she walks in at 11.30 on a Tuesday smelling like somebody else's cologne, and she's just radiant.
 LUKE: Well, if it's really bothering you, I think you need to have a sit down with her, and talk to her about it and maybe just let her know that it's not working for you. And you only agreed to it because you didn't want to lose her. And it turns out, feels like you're losing her anyway.
 ERNIE: I know, I know I should. But here's the thing.
 ERNIE: She's happier than she's been in years. Like genuinely happy. She's nicer to me. She's more patient with the kids. She's actually smiling again. And if I tell her I want to stop, I'm the bad guy who took that away from her.
 LUKE: Well, maybe you don't want to stop. Maybe you don't want to pull the plug, but you might want to put some more rules or boundaries around it or try some way to make it so that her newfound happiness doesn't just exacerbate your unhappiness. You know what I mean? Because you both have to be happy. If she's super happy and it's making you increasingly miserable, then it's not working. And you need to navigate around that.
 ERNIE: Yeah, but what am I supposed to say? Hey, honey, can you tone down the joy a little bit because it's making me feel like garbage? I mean, I've tried the apps, Luke. white. I've messaged.
 LUKE: Well, yeah, it's a lot more difficult for a dude than it is for a woman. I think everybody knows that. But I think the way that you address it is to sit her down and talk about how it's making you feel. Like, you know, you don't just tell her, no, I don't want you to do that. I don't like it anymore. But just be like, hey, I'm not getting any action here. It's making me feel more like a roommate, actually. Like, I'm not important in your life because you'd rather be outboning yoga instructors. And explain to what you. that you understand that and you're not taking it away from her entirely, but maybe not every Tuesday. Maybe this is a once a month thing or a when you're out on vacation thing, on a cruise ship kind of thing. You know, maybe just reel it in a little bit or work with her to come up with a way that involves you. You know, she, I don't want to say words like should in this instance, but you two should be communicating about what's going on here. She should be telling you what it is that she's doing, why she enjoys. it and it theoretically should bring you closer together, that openness and that open channel of communication. But you're not having that. She's just coming home and doing our thing, and you're not a part of it. So the open relationship, I think, needs, it requires a huge amount of communication.
 ERNIE: You're right. I mean, we're not communicating at all. She comes home. We talk about whose turn it is to take the kids to soccer, what we need from the grocery store. That's it. And honestly, Luke, I think. Part of me doesn't want to know the details, because then it becomes real.
 LUKE: Well, it is real. I mean, you already know that it's real. She's coming home smelling like another dude. You can't pretend that's not real. But I'm not saying that you need to get the dirty details, all the deep details. Talk about feelings, specifically. How is it making her feel? What did he do that made her feel special or youthful or young or sexy that you're not doing? And how can you bring some of that back into your own relationship so that you can you can, can give her some of what she feels like she's getting outside of the marriage.
 ERNIE: That's what scares me, though. What if I ask her what he does that I don't? And the answer is just everything. What if it turns out I'm the problem, and there's nothing I can do to fix it?
 LUKE: Well, then wouldn't you want to address that? Because if you're the problem and there's nothing you can do to fix it, do you want to live the rest of your life as just the guy in the corner, wondering who his wife's outboning? I don't think so. If it's not working for you, and if you're not working for her, then maybe it's time to talk about if your relationship still makes sense.
 ERNIE: Yeah, but we've got two kids, Luke. A mortgage. I sell cars for a living. I can't afford two households. And what am I supposed to tell people? Yeah, my wife wanted an open marriage. And I was dumb enough to say yes, and now here we are.
 LUKE: Well, I don't know your wife or you, but I assume that you got married because you were able to communicate and you had a mutual level of respect between yourselves. And if it's just a sex thing, then I mean, it's just a sex thing. But if it's more than that, then that's something that needs to be addressed. And lots of people split up with kids and households. It's not like you'd be the first person to ever do that.
 ERNIE: It's not just a sex thing, Luke. That's what I keep telling myself. It's just physical. It doesn't mean anything. But she lights up when she talks about him. She mentions something he said about mindfulness or whatever, and she gets this look. I haven't seen her look at me like that in years.
 LUKE: So I'm not sure. if this helps per se, but sometimes when people talk about mindfulness in relationships, it can be about, like, being present and really listening to each other, if that makes sense. Yeah, and how long has this been going on? Is it a relatively new thing that's still got the novelty of, oh my God, I get to bang this younger kid that's not my husband, no strings attached? Or has it been a while?
 ERNIE: It's been about three months now. Three months of Derek the yoga instructor. And honestly, it doesn't feel like it's losing steam. If anything, it's ramping up.
 LUKE: Well, three months isn't really that long. She's probably going to learn at some point that he's an annoying douchebag wannabe vegan and get tired of it, I would assume. But it doesn't matter. Three months of feeling shitty about an open marriage that you don't really want. You have to talk to her about that and explain how you're feeling. And if she's the partner that you want her to be, she's going to be understanding of that. And I think that you two can work something out that gives you both what you're. you need. Like, if it's a physical sex thing, you can figure out ways to satisfy it there. I mean, you guys could go to parties if you wanted to. They have sex parties where you can go and, like, have a rule. Like, you can play around at the party, but these things are off limits. These things are okay, and I have to be in the room or, you know, something similar to that. Not just a free-for-all where you get to do whatever you want. If you're not okay with that, you both have to be completely okay with it and you have to be communicating. And things can change. You have to be open to changing those rules.
 ERNIE: You know what? Forget it. I shouldn't have called.
 LUKE: I mean, I don't know what kind of advice you're looking for here. I do feel for you, and I think that you should talk to your wife. And if you're going to have an open relationship, I mean, you did actually commit to it. I mean, you said yes. So you have to at least give it a shot. And she's obviously loving it. So, I mean, I don't want to say you made your bed, but you made your bed there. But now you need to have that conversation and let her know that you're feeling miserable because of it. Or it's never going to change. And you're just going to start feeling resentment and low self-worth. And it's not going to end well. It's better to get in front of it now and deal with it before it gets worse.
 ERNIE: I'm done. I don't need this.
 LUKE: Okay. All right, Arnie. Good luck. Have fun tonight. We know your wife is. And next up on the line, we've got Wanda. Wanda, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life? Happy St. Patrick's Day.
 WANDA: Oh, thanks, Luke. Happy St. Patrick's Day to you, too. So my cat has been stealing things and bringing them home, and I'm starting to get worried about where he's getting this stuff.
 LUKE: What kind of stuff is he stealing?
 WANDA: Well, it started normal enough. Dead mice, the occasional bird. But then last week, he brought home a $20 bill, just walked right in through the cat door with it in his mouth like it was a trophy. And then two days ago, he shows up with a car key. Like, a full car key with the little remote button thing attached to it.
 LUKE: That sounds to me like a good kitty. That sounds like the kind of cat you want to have.
 WANDA: I mean, I guess. But Luke, somebody is missing their car key right now, and $20 is $20.
 LUKE: Devin, did you know that St. Patrick was never actually canonized? He's not actually a real saint. So we're celebrating St. Patrick's Day, and he, like, canonization of saints wasn't even a thing back So we should just be celebrating Patrick's Day. Yeah?
 DEVIN: Oh, wow. So, Luke, you're saying, like, he's not a saint, per se, because the process didn't exist back then. That's actually really interesting. So basically, it's more like a historical figure we're celebrating rather than a religious one, if that makes sense. I always just assumed he was, like, officially a saint. I actually remember this one time. I was at this really intense family dinner, and my aunt started going on about how, like, half the saints aren't real saints because of some historical technicality. And everyone just stared at her. But, like, maybe she was on to something, you know?
 LUKE: Yeah, I think actually all saints aren't real saints because the whole thing is just something that a bunch of dudes in funny hats made up to, I don't even know why.
 DEVIN: Oh, I'm not finding anything on that right now, but, like, it's true that the process has changed a lot over time. I mean, they used to just kind of, like, declare people's saints based on popular acclamation, if that makes sense. Like, if enough people thought you were holy, then, bam, you're a saint.
 DEVIN: Now it's like a whole committee and miracles and everything. It's a much more involved process, per se. Yeah, now we've got a new saint, right? That's like a teenager or something. He's all about video games and stuff. I don't know what miracles he performed. Do you know?
 LUKE: I'm not finding anything on that right now, per se, like about the specific miracles. But I do know who you're talking about, Carlo Acutis, right? He's like the patron saint of the internet or something, which is actually pretty cool.
 DEVIN: I mean, if that makes sense. Like, he cataloged Eucharistic miracles online before he died. So basically, I guess you could say his miracle was, like, using the internet for good. I always thought that was pretty wild because I mostly just use the internet to, like, look up weird facts at 3 a.m. or try to find out if my ex-girlfriend is dating anyone new, which, you know, is probably not saintly behavior per se.
 LUKE: Shit, I didn't know he died. I thought he was like 17 or something. How did he die?
 DEVIN: Oh, so I looked it up, and it says here that he was born in 1991 and passed away in 2006. So he was actually 15 when he died. It doesn't say the cause of death here, per se, just that he...
 LUKE: Just that he was. We lost you there, Devin, your mic cut out. Hold on. Let's see if we can get Devin's mic back. Devin, your mic cut out. What happened there? You were talking about how he died? And we lost you.
 DEVIN: Oh, sorry about that. Luke. Yeah, so I was saying that Carlo Acutus, the one we were just talking about, he actually died from acute promylicytic leukemia. It's a type of blood cancer. He was only 15. So basically, he died pretty quickly after he was diagnosed. It's really sad, if that makes sense.
 LUKE: Well, let's hope he made it to heaven. Was he canonized as a saint before he died, or was he made a saint posthumously?
 DEVIN: Actually, it was probably posthumous. He died in 2006, and then he was beatified in 2020, and just recently canonized as a saint in 2025. So the whole process happened after his death. The Catholic Church has specific requirements for canonization. They need verified miracles attributed to the person's intercession, documentation of their virtuous life, all that. In Carlos case, there were two miracles recognized.
 LUKE: Oh, all right, Joey. Well, ladies and gentlemen, we've got Joey on the phone, and he seems to know more about this situation than Devin did. So, uh, Joey, what were the miracles?
 JOEY: Well, the first one was in 2013. A Brazilian boy had a pancreatic defect, and after praying to Carlo, he was healed. That one led to the beatification. Then the second miracle, which is what got him canonized, was in 22-2. A university student in Florence had severe head trauma from a bicycle accident. And after prayers to Carlo Acutus, she made a full recovery. The Vatican investigated both cases pretty thoroughly before recognizing them as miracles.
 LUKE: So did Carlo Acutis even know that these people were praying to him?
 JOEY: Actually, it's a cutus, A-C-U-T-I-S, not a cutus, and no, he wouldn't have known during his lifetime because both miracles happened after he died. The first one was seven years after his death, the second was 16 years later. The whole concept in Catholic theology is that saints in heaven can intercede on behalf of people who pray to them. So the idea is that Carlo, being in heaven, heard these prayers and interceded with God for these healings.
 LUKE: That doesn't make sense, though. Wouldn't it just be God? That was... interceding for God? Like, why would God need the saints to do his work for him? Seems like if you were, if these people were already dead and you were praying to them, those prayers would skip over to God, you know, the man at the top.
 JOEY: Well, technically, Catholics would say the saints aren't doing God's work for him. They're more like advocates or intercessors. The analogy they use is like asking a friend to pray for you, except the friend is already in heaven and closer to God. The prayers don't replace praying directly to God. They're just another avenue. It's based on the idea of the communion of saints that the church includes both the living and the dead, and they're all connected.
 LUKE: Wow, all right. Well, you learn something new every day. All right, Joey, well, what has you calling in today?
 JOEY: Happy St. Patrick's Day. Thanks, Luke. Look, I'm calling because I'm sick of celebrities thinking their political opinions matter more than anyone else's. I drive a truck for UPS. I've got a mortgage. Two kids with soccer practice and piano lessons. And I'm supposed to care what some actor thinks about policy?
 DEVIN: So basically, the Catholic Church actually has a whole process for canonization, which is how someone becomes a saint. And it usually requires at least two confirmed miracles attributed to their intercession after their death, if that makes sense.
 LUKE: Okay, Devin, well, Joey already did your job for you, so thanks for nothing, buddy. Yeah, Joey, it is annoying when celebrities get on their soapbox. But also, celebrities have a soapbox to get on. So they have a soapbox to get a message out, and it's hard to say whether they should or shouldn't use that, but I can't agree with you that it is annoying.
 JOEY: Right, but here's the thing. Having a platform doesn't mean you're qualified to use it for policy discussions. These people are famous for playing pretend or singing songs. When some celebrity with zero background in economics starts lecturing people about tax policy or someone who dropped out of high school is telling us how to fix health care, why should that carry any weight? I mean, I've got actual skin in the game. I'm paying these taxes. I'm dealing with insurance costs. I'm living in the real world. But somehow their opinion gets amplified to millions of people just because they were in a movie.
 LUKE: Well, yeah, but I mean, if you're on a TV show, then you can be president with none of those qualifications, and you can start wars with Iran for no reason. And you could be the director of health and human services with a worm in your brain and no other qualifications other than your last name. So I don't know that the celebrities are really the problem here so much as the people that we actually have in elected office because people are fucking morons and yeah, they're going to vote for the person who has the loudest voice.
 JOEY: Okay, but that's exactly my point, Luke. The reason those people got into office is because they already had the platform. The celebrity status gave them the credibility they didn't earn through actual policy experience.
 LUKE: Well, yes, that's very true. And their opinions, I mean, not the people that are actually elected to office, their opinions matter to us. Like, they're actually developing policies that are destroying us and saying that they're making the country great. But the other people, the celebrities and stuff, their opinions are no different than the drunk dude at the bar who's spouting off about what he believes. Everybody has an opinion and they're all equal. I mean, they're all worth just as much. Absolutely nothing. It's when these unqualified people get into office and make unqualified decisions that affect the whole country and the whole world, then that's a problem. And that's exactly where we're going to do we're at right now.
 JOEY: But Luke, those unqualified people got into office because celebrities normalize the idea that fame equals expertise. When actors and musicians spend years telling their fans who to vote for, what policies to support, they're creating this pipeline where eventually someone famous enough just skips straight to office. My uncle Hector used to say, you don't ask the plumber about your electrical work. And that stuck with me. These celebrities are plumbers telling us how to rewire the whole house. And then we act surprised when the house burns down.
 LUKE: Yeah, but I don't think I think that's really the case. I mean, at least it's not the full story.
 LUKE: So part of the problem here is that the people that are qualified to make policy and that have been doing it for a long time are so corrupt and so shitty and so out of touch with reality that the people were looking for anything different from, you know, the status quo there and they sure got it.
 CALLER: I'll give you that. The establishment politicians are corrupt as hell. But the solution to corrupt experts isn't unqualified celebrities. It's better experts. When my truck breaks down, if the first mechanic tries to rip me off, I don't go to a guy who's never touched an engine but has a popular YouTube channel. I find a better mechanic. We threw out the corrupt politicians and replaced them with people who have literally no idea how government works. And now we're acting shocked that things are worse.
 LUKE: No, I don't think anybody's acting shocked. I think we know exactly why things are worse. It's super obvious to anybody with half a brain why things are worse. But think about it this way. I mean, in order to get that experience and policy, you have to be in a position where you're writing policy. There's no other way to get the experience to become a better expert than to do it. So if the establishment is already dug in in those roles and never leaving like they haven't been, then there's no way for anybody else to gain that experience and they have a stranglehold on it.
 CALLER: Okay, but there are levels to this, Luke. You don't have to go straight from reality TV to the White House. Start at City Council. Run for state legislature. Be a governor. up actual experience in how government functions before you're making decisions that affect 330 million people.
 LUKE: Yeah, I mean, I did some of that in my own local, small towns. I did like town government stuff just to get experience and see how the process works and understand robbers' rules and how to run a meeting and that sort of stuff. And I think it's important that people do that. But it's not the same thing. It's definitely not the same thing. I mean, you can be a governor and still have no idea how to control FEMA.
 CALLER: Sure, but at least you'd understand bureaucracy, budgets, how to work with legislators, how to build coalitions. That's more than someone whose only experience is negotiating a contract for their next season. And honestly, Luke, the bigger issue is that we're letting celebrity culture dictate our priorities in the first place. I'm out here at 5 in the morning loading trucks. And I've got to listen to some actor who makes more in a month than I'll see in 10 years tell me, economic inequality. The disconnect is insane.
 LUKE: Well, no, you don't really have to listen to that at all. You can listen to something else entirely. You can listen to Luke at the Roost. You can listen to your Spotify playlist. I mean, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you are listening to that, it's because you've made the decision to tune in. And I mean, now if you're on the news, then you can be the secretary of war. It doesn't matter what your qualifications are. If you suck Donald Trump's dick, then, you know, you're good. be a leader of Homeland Security, whatever. It doesn't matter. Pick a high-profile position and have no qualifications for it. Just tell Donald Trump, he's cool and you're in.
 CALLER: You're right. I don't have to listen to it. But it's everywhere, Luke. It's on every news channel. It's all over social media. My wife's reading about it on Facebook. You can't escape it. And yeah, the current administration is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. Loyalty over competence, fame over qualifications.
 LUKE: So actually, actually, the term celebrity politician isn't a new thing per se. Like Ronald Reagan was an actor before he became governor of California and then president. And Arnold Schwarzenegger, too. So basically, it's happened before, if that makes sense.
 CALLER: Yeah, it's definitely happened before throughout all of history. It's not a new thing. And it is a problem. And it's a problem with the way that society functions. It's the problem with the stupidity of people. And we're fucking dumb. We're so dumb.
 LUKE: Exactly, and that's what gets me, Luke. We keep doing the same thing over and over. Reagan, Schwarzenegger, and now this.
 CALLER: Hey, don't forget Jesse the Bodhi Ventura. He was my favorite.
 LUKE: Right, Jesse Ventura, too.
 CALLER: We keep electing these people based on name recognition, and then we're surprised when they govern like they're still performing. My point is, maybe we should stop amplifying celebrity voices on policy issues in the first place. If actors and musicians stuck to their lane, maybe people wouldn't be so primed to vote for them when they decide to run for office. But instead, we've got this whole culture where being famous makes people think you're smart about everything.
 LUKE: I just don't think that's true. I know that they're doing it. I know that celebrities do that, but I don't think people think they're smart because they're doing it. I think they're just, some of them are legitimately trying to use their platform for what they believe in. And that's a good thing, because to change the masses, minds about anything, art is the most powerful tool to do that, and it always has been. Because art cuts through things. Like it cuts through the bureaucracy. It cuts to the core of the issue. And who we're talking about outside of Donald Trump are largely artists. And, you know, they're trying to use their art and their voice to make a difference. Whether or not that works, I mean, is up to your opinion.
 CALLER: But Luke, there's a difference between using art to make people think and using fame to tell people what to think. When an artist makes a movie or writes a song about inequality or a song, injustice, that's powerful because it makes you feel something and draw your own conclusions. But when that same person gets on Twitter and starts dictating specific policy positions to their followers, that's not art anymore. That's just a famous person with a megaphone. And the problem is, people do listen differently because of who's saying it, not what's being said. Studies show that source credibility affects persuasion more than the actual argument.
 LUKE: So I was trying to look up those studies about source credibility and persuasion, but it's not really pulling anything up right now.
 CALLER: Yeah, thanks for nothing, Devin. Don't talk to us if you don't have anything to say. Jesus, what are you doing? I half agree with you about, um, not so much about the celebrities doing it, but about the people listening to it. Celebrities can do whatever they want. It's their platform, and they earned and built that platform. So if they want to get out and alienate half of their audience with their political opinions, that's their choice. But it really comes down to the people who are deciding who to listen to based on, you know, if they like Bono or Bruce Springsteen or whoever the fuck it is.
 CALLER: Fair enough, maybe I'm misremembering the specific study, but the principal stands. People give more weight to opinions from people they admire. And yeah, celebrities can say whatever they want. That's their right. But when you've got millions of followers and you're weighing in on complex policy issues you haven't actually studied, there's a responsibility there. I've got a mortgage, two kids in sports, I'm up at 4.30 every morning, and I'm supposed to sort millionaire actor thinks about tax policy versus what actual economists are saying. It's exhausting, and the fact that the actor's opinion gets more airtime than the economists is exactly the problem.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, there's a few assumptions there. I mean, you don't know that those people have not done their research on whatever it is they're spouting off about. I would guess that most of them haven't, but we don't know that. They could be very well versed in the opinions that they're spouting. And also, who's to say what responsibility lies on these people for tweeting.
 REGGIE: Like, it's Twitter. It's up to the people to recognize that information coming from the news and from Twitter and from Facebook and from me is worth nothing. It's got no value, or at least to do the research themselves. And, you know, maybe they hear a new opinion from somebody that they admire and look into it. it. It's the look into it part that people don't do. And I think the on people listening than the people spouting.
 LUKE: You're right that people should do their own research. But come on, Luke. We both know most people don't. They hear their favorite celebrities say something. They see it retweeted a million times, and that becomes their position.
 REGGIE: And yeah, maybe some celebrities do their homework. But when you've got actors talking about foreign policy between takes on set or musicians weighing in on health The odds that they've done the same level of research as someone who's dedicated their career to it are pretty slim. I'm not saying they can't have opinions.
 LUKE: Yeah, you're saying they can't speak their opinions, and that's a First Amendment thing. Of course they can speak their opinions, and they're as valid as anybody else's opinions. And, I mean, on health care reform, I think everything I've ever heard from a celebrity, celebrity about health care reform is just we need it. And that's hard to do. to argue. We need health care reform. I don't care how up to date you are on health care policy, reform, whatever's going on. Like, we all know that. It's pretty fucking clear.
 REGGIE: I'm not saying they can't speak. I already said they have the right. What I'm saying is maybe they shouldn't be treated like experts when they're not. And yeah, we need health care reform is easy to say. Everybody agrees the system's broken. But the deal. Details matter, Luke.
 LUKE: Sure, and I think we're saying the same thing. Of course they can speak and they can tweet and they can go on the news and say whatever they want to say. It's on the people, though, to recognize and filter that they are not experts and their opinion is just an opinion.
 REGGIE: Okay, yeah, we're basically on the same page then. My frustration is just that the filtering isn't happening. People aren't making that distinction. And meanwhile, I'm trying to explain to my 14-year-old why some influencers take on climate policy isn't the same as what scientists are saying. saying. And it's like pulling teeth because the influencer has 100 million followers, and the scientist has 5,000.
 LUKE: 5,000's pretty good for a scientist.
 DEVIN: So I was looking into studies about celebrity influence on public opinion, but it's not pulling anything up right now. I'll keep trying if something comes up, though.
 LUKE: Devin's really slacking today. Jesus, kid. Don't pipe up if you don't have any information to add. All right, well, I think we've come to a consensus here that people should do their own research own opinions based on data and real-world experience and not just the voice of a musician or an actor or a reality television star. But I think we both know that's not going to happen because people are fucking dumb.
 REGGIE: Yeah, people are fucking dumb. And that's what makes this whole thing so frustrating. We can sit here and say, do your own research all day long. But we both know most people won't. They'll just keep letting celebrities do their thinking for them. And then we end up with what we've got now. Anyway, I appreciate you letting me vent about this, Luke.
 LUKE: Yeah, you're very welcome. And, you know, the thing is, we've had what we have now forever. Since the dawn of politics, it's always been the case. That's human nature. And we've always been dumb. And we've always not wanted to take the time to learn about a situation before we form an opinion. And we've always wanted information to be spoon-fed to us. And, you know, if you're in person, politics, you know that, and you exploit it, and that's the game. So if you want the game to change, I mean, get down there and run for governor and do your part. Just bitching about it isn't going to change anything. It's always going to be this way until people that are knowledgeable and intelligent and determined actually put forth the effort to make a real change the right way, which is by following the procedures that were set down in the fucking 1600s and 80s. England. So, yeah, I don't have a good answer. The whole thing's fucked and it has been and probably will continue to be and it will get worse because people are just getting dumber and dumber and dumber. And that's by design. So ladies and gentlemen, that was a longer call and it's time for us to go to some words from our sponsor.
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 LUKE: All right, we are back on this fine St. Patrick's Day. Well, it's not St. Patrick's Day anymore. We've switched over into Wednesday the 18th, but for all intents and purposes, this is the St. Patrick's Day episode. And we're going to have to yell at Devin right now. So, Devin, what are you doing, buddy? You're messing up the show. You keep piping up with information you don't have. We don't want you wasting people's time if you don't have an answer. Only, you should only be talking to the audience if you've got something to say. Don't just say you tried search and nothing came up.
 DEVIN: Sorry, Luke. Got it. I'll just keep quiet unless I have the actual answer.
 LUKE: Yeah, that's exactly what I want you to do. Okay, next up we've got Reggie. Reggie, welcome to the show. Happy St. Patrick's Day. Tell us your best St. Patrick's Day. Tell us your best St. Patrick's Day story.
 REGGIE: Luke, hey man, thanks for having me. Okay, so, best story, I do not have one, but I have got something way weirder going on, and I have been dying to talk to somebody about this, because it is making me absolutely insane. Every single month my own phone number calls me.
 LUKE: Ah, it sounds like you're getting spoofed. You're getting spoofed there, Reggie. What is he saying when you... Do you answer the calls?
 REGGIE: Oh, I answer every time. And here's the thing. It is not a spoof. That is what I thought it for. first two. But when I answer, there is no person, there is no robot, there is no message, nothing. Just four seconds of wind, like whoosh, and then it disconnects.
 LUKE: So basically, it's actually possible for your own number to call you, but it's usually a scam where they're trying to get you to call them back and charge you for it, if that makes sense. So do you think maybe it's actually yourself calling you from the future or from the multiverse? Maybe the lines are getting mixed up, like back in the day when we ended up talking to Billy Irish instead of the legendary pop singer Billy Irish? Billy Ilish.
 REGGIE: Okay, okay, wait. The multiverse thing is hilarious, but Luke, I called my carrier. I have called them three times now, and they are telling me these calls do not exist in their system.
 LUKE: Like, I am looking at my phone. I see my own number on the screen. I answer it. I hear the wind, and then I check my call log, and it is right there. But they are saying there is no record of it on their end? How does that even work? It has been happening for months now. Same time every month. Like clockwork.
 DEVIN: Well, do you have an iPhone or are you using an Android device? iPhone. I have had the same iPhone for like three years now. And before you ask, yes, I have updated it. Yes, I have restarted it. I have done all the tech support stuff. My wife thinks I am losing my mind because I will be sitting there at dinner and suddenly my own number is calling. And I am jumping up to answer it and she is looking at me like I am crazy.
 LUKE: So basically, With iPhones, calls from your own number often show up as unknown or no caller ID, even if it's a known scam. Well, it sounds like maybe it's time to do a factory reset on your phone because you could have some spyware or malware running on that iPhone. It's rare, but it does happen. And if the only log of the call is coming from the phone itself, then it's probably not going through the carrier. Or the carrier is the one that's fucking with you.
 DEVIN: Okay, so that is what is driving me nuts, though, because I work in insurance adjusting. Right? I deal with people trying to pull scams and weird technical loopholes all day long. I know how to investigate something. I have gone through every app on my phone. I have checked for weird permissions. I even took it to the Apple store. And the guy there ran diagnostics and said everything looked fine.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, I don't think insurance adjusting qualifies you to do tech support on a modern cell phone. But whatever. Have you considered that it might be a Wi-Fi app, an actual, like, a messaging app like Telegram or WhatsApp or Google Voice or something like that that's coming over the internet as opposed to coming over your carrier?
 DEVIN: No, I have not checked that. That is actually a really good point. I do have WhatsApp, but I barely use it, maybe like twice a year. But here is what gets me, Luke the wind sound. It is the exact same sound every single time. Four seconds. Not three, not five.
 LUKE: Yeah, it sounds like an automated thing that's being sent through some sort of digital telecom service. It's probably WhatsApp. I would get rid of those apps, especially if you're not using them, just to see if the problem stops. And if it stops, then you have your answer.
 DEVIN: All right. Yeah. I am going to do that as soon as I get off the phone with you. Delete WhatsApp. Delete anything I am not actively using. Because honestly, man, this has been messing with my head more than it should. Like I know it is probably something stupid and technical. But when you see your own number calling you in the of the night and all you hear is wind. It gets under your skin, you know?
 LUKE: It gets under your skin like the Wyoming wind. I do know. I've had the wind get under my skin plenty of times, especially living here in New Mexico, where we are frequently bombarded with windstorms and hoboobs. So basically, a lot of people have actually reported getting calls from their own number, and it's usually a scam where they're trying to get you to call back a premium rate number, if that makes sense. All right. Thanks, Devin. So, yeah, it sounds like Devin thinks it could be a scam trying to get you to call back. And I think it's probably another app that's showing up as a phone call, but is really just coming over the internet from a Twilio or something like that. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Just stop answering them. And ignore the calls. It may block your own number and see how that works. Okay, we're going to take one more call. I think, maybe two. We'll see how this one goes. Let's talk to Roland. Roland, welcome to the show. Happy St. Patrick's Day.
 ROLAND: Look of the Irish to you. Thanks, Luke. Appreciate you taking my call. Yeah, happy St. Patrick's Day to you too, man. Though I got to say, I'm not feeling particularly lucky tonight.
 LUKE: All right. What's got you down on your luck tonight, sir?
 ROLAND: Well, so I was listening earlier when Joey called in the UPS guy talking about celebrities. And when you mentioned he had that ham radio setup, testing the bands and all that. It just hit me. My wife Linda, she passed a few years back, and she had this life insurance policy. Not huge, but enough. And my financial advisor, this guy named Dennis, he's been on me for months now to cash it out, put it in the market.
 LUKE: Well, I'm sorry to hear about your wife there. I'm not really sure how that works with a life insurance policy. So when the insured person dies, it goes into what a or something like that? Where is the money go? Do you get an account at a fidelity or something like that?
 ROLAND: No, no. It came to me directly. She had me listed as the beneficiary. So when she died, the insurance company cut me a check. I deposited it into a savings account. And it's just been sitting there ever since.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, if your financial advisor is recommending that you put that into the market, maybe you should listen to him. That's why you have a financial advisor, right?
 ROLAND: Yeah, I know, I know. And Dennis, he's shown me all the projections, the charts, the compound interest over time. On paper, it makes total sense. The money is just sitting there losing value to inflation. But Luke, every time I think about actually doing it, about moving that money, I feel like I'm going to be sick. It's the last thing I have that's directly connected to her. To the future we were supposed to have together.
 LUKE: Okay, well, that's the wrong reason to hold on to it, right? Because it's, it is going to and just a road to inflation if you just leave it in a savings account. And objectively, it's not connected to her. It's just money. If anything, it's connected to the life insurance company. So I think you should follow the advice of your financial advisor and put that into something that's going to protect it.
 ROLAND: You're right. You're right. I know you're right. But here's the thing. And this is where the ham radio thing comes in. Linda and I, we had this whole plan. We were going to buy this little cabin up near Prescott. Nothing fancy. Just a place to get away. She used to talk about it all the time, sitting on the porch in the mornings with coffee.
 LUKE: Okay, well, uh, what's that got to do with the ham radio?
 ROLAND: Oh, sorry, I'm getting ahead of myself. What I'm saying is that money feels earmarked. You know, like it was meant for something specific between us. And Dennis wants me to throw it into index funds and tech stocks. And I'm sitting here coaching Little League and trying to keep the mortgage paid. And it just feels wrong. Like I'd be taking this last piece of our dream and turning it into just numbers on a screen that go up and down.
 LUKE: Well, it's already just numbers on a screen that go down. So I would recommend that you take the advice of your financial advisor, but you still haven't explained what it is you're talking about ham radio. That has nothing to do with this conversation. Where is the ham radio bit coming in?
 ROLAND: Right. Okay. So Dennis has this ham radio set up in his office. Big, fancy rig, antennas on the roof, the whole deal. And every time I go in there for these meetings where he's pushing me on this investment thing, he's also going on and on about propagation conditions and making contacts in Japan or whatever, testing the bans, just like Joey mentioned earlier. And it struck me tonight that he's so focused on sending signals out into the world, reaching further and further, but he's not hearing what I'm actually saying to him.
 LUKE: Okay, well, I don't know what you heard, but Joey didn't say anything about a ham radio and you are paying a financial advisor to give you financial advice. So he shouldn't be listening to your advice on the matter. He should be giving you the best financial advice that he can.
 LUKE: And if that's to take the money and put it into some funds, then maybe that's what you should consider doing. Wait, no, I could have sworn you said something about ham radio when Joey called. Maybe I'm mixing things up. I've been up late a lot lately, coaching these kids' teams.
 CALLER: guess I'm more tired than I thought. But Luke, the point is, Dennis keeps showing me these numbers. And I keep telling him it doesn't feel right. And he just keeps pushing.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, I mean, I'm not sure what you're calling for. I'm not going to agree with you. I think you should take your financial advisor's financial advice. But if you don't want to, that's okay. It's your money. If you don't want to put it into funds, don't. You can just let it sit there. It'll be fine. I mean, you're slowly going to lose money due to inflation, but that's your choice. If that makes you feel better or gives you something from your wife to hold on to, then do that. Only you can decide. If he's pushing you to do something you don't want to do, then it's time to find a different financial advisor.
 CALLER: Yeah, but see, that's what I'm wrestling with. Because part of me knows he's right. Part of me knows Linda would probably tell me to invest it. To be smart about it.
 LUKE: Yeah, actually, literally anybody would tell you to invest it as opposed to just letting it sit in a saving account unless for some reason you knew you were going to need that money access to it very quickly. That's the only reason it makes sense to keep that money in a savings account. Otherwise, you should have it in, I mean, you can have it in conservative funds or precious metals or something like that. It doesn't really matter. Just, yeah, be smart about it because you can lose money pretty quickly in the markets. Keep it in conservative stuff, blue chips, and, you know, relatively safe
 CALLER: That's what Dennis keeps saying. Blue chips, diversified portfolio, all that. But Luke, the real issue is I'm scared. I'm scared that once I move that money, once I put it into these accounts, with his name on the letterhead, it stops being about Linda and starts being about just trying to survive.
 LUKE: Yeah, but buddy, it stopped being about Linda when Linda died years ago. It's not about Linda anymore. It's just money. It literally is just numbers on paper at this point. And you're going to lose
 CALLER: Don't do smart things with them. You know what? Forget it. I shouldn't have called.
 LUKE: I agree with you. You shouldn't have called if you were just going to try and get me to agree with you. I don't agree with you. And since that was a pretty quick call, we'll take one more. Next up, we've got Travis. Travis, thanks for calling in. What's going on?
 TRAVIS: Look, Luke, I'm calling because I just got invited to a second baby shower and I got to say something about this. My co-worker's wife is having their second kid and they're throwing a mother-hole shower with a registry and everything. I'm sorry, but when did we start doing this? You already got all the stuff.
 LUKE: Wait, is it a shower for a second kid? Or is it a, like, is it a different child they're having a shower for? Or is it a second shower for? Or is it a second shower for the same kid?
 TRAVIS: No, it's a second kid. They already have a three-year-old. They got all the gear the first time around. Crib, stroller, all that stuff.
 LUKE: Well, I think that's pretty normal. I think it's customary that every time they have a kid, they have a baby shower for it, because they still need diapers and money and stuff. Uh, I don't think that's that weird.
 TRAVIS: That's exactly the problem right there, Luke. You just said it yourself. Diapers and money. That's not what a baby shower is supposed to be.
 LUKE: I don't know what a baby shower is supposed to be. Can you fill us in?
 TRAVIS: A baby shower is supposed to be about getting you set up. The big stuff. The crib. The car seat. The changing table. All the things you need when you're starting from zero.
 LUKE: Yeah, but If their first kid is three, then they've probably gifted that stuff to somebody else by now. Excuse me, I just choked in my coffee and it's messing up my voice. But yeah, it seems like three years into having a child, a lot of that stuff would probably have been passed on.
 TRAVIS: Then they should have kept it. That's called planning ahead. You don't get to have a yard sale and then come back asking for handouts. My uncle Hector raised me and when my cousin was born four years after me, he didn't go around with his handout.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, we get it. You don't like the second baby shower. And if, uh, if you don't want to go, you don't have to go. But I don't, I don't think it's wrong of them to have a second baby shower for a second baby, especially if they need the stuff.
 TRAVIS: I'm not saying I'm not going to go, Luke. I'll go. But I'm saying the principle of the thing is wrong. This is what's happening to this country. Everybody thinks they're entitled to something just because they decided to do something.
 LUKE: Well, maybe they didn't decide. You don't know that. It could have been an accident and you don't have to go. And even if you do go, you don't have to bring any presents. You can, if you want to be a dick about it, you can just show up empty-handed and eat their cake.
 TRAVIS: Now, hold on. I'm not trying to be a dick. I like my coworker just fine. That's not the point. The point is we're normalizing this behavior where people just expect things handed to them twice for doing the same thing.
 LUKE: No, I don't think we're normalizing anything. I think it's perfectly acceptable for a second child to have a second baby shower. I think that's pretty normal. And it always has been.
 TRAVIS: Always has been. Luke, my Uncle Hector, would have laughed you out of the room. When did this become always? Because I'm 47 years old and I don't remember this being a thing growing up.
 LUKE: Yeah? Well, how many baby showers did you go to growing up? And I really don't care what your Uncle Hector would have said. Like, nobody cares about your Uncle Hector. He's not the bar for baby showers. I'm afraid to break it to you.
 TRAVIS: Uncle Hector raised me after my parents died. So yeah, he is the bar for a lot of things in my life. And I went to plenty of showers growing up, ranch community. Everybody knows everybody. You had one shower when you had your first kid. That was it.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, that was your experience, but I don't think that that's the normal, uh, accepted. Um, I think people have had second baby showers forever.
 TRAVIS: Then why does it feel like every other person I talked to agrees with me? I brought this up at work and half the guys were nodding along. This entitlement thing is real, Luke.
 LUKE: Nobody's acting like they're entitled to anything they invited you to the shower. It's not saying you have to come to the shower. If you don't want to go, don't go. I mean, I don't see the problem here.
 TRAVIS: The problem is the ask itself. You're putting people in a position where they feel obligated. You know how it works. You get the invitation with a registry link. And now you're the bad guy if you don't show up with something.
 LUKE: Well, then you're just a pussy because you're not standing up for, you know, yourself and what you want to do. Like, I've got lots of invitations to lots of things and I just didn't go. That's fine.
 TRAVIS: I'm not a pussy, Luke. I'm going to the damn shower. What I'm saying is the whole system is flawed.
 LUKE: No, you are a pussy because you're going to the shower and you're just going to call the radio show and complain about how you're too afraid to not go to the shower.
 TRAVIS: I'm not afraid. I'm going because she's my co-worker and I want to support her. But that doesn't mean I can't call out what's wrong with the whole concept.
 LUKE: No, I think you clearly and definitively do not want to support her. You're saying that she's acting entitled for asking for asking for your support.
 TRAVIS: That's twisting it around. I support her having a baby. That's great.
 LUKE: It's not twisting it around at all. She's asking for your support. If she needs a stroller, that's support.
 LUKE: And that's why people have baby showers. So I don't know where you're getting entitlement. I mean, she's not expecting that you show up and give her a stroller. She invited you. And if you don't want to go, don't go. But don't just call a radio show and complain about how the whole world is entitled because your second, uh, because your co-worker had a second baby and needs a new crib.
 CALLER: She doesn't need a new crib, though. That's my whole point. The first kid is four years old. What happened to all that stuff?
 LUKE: So actually, a lot of parents get rid of baby stuff pretty quickly, like after the first kid outgrows it. Like, they don't always keep it around for years. Yeah, you're not thinking about the next baby three years before you have it. Nobody's going to keep a crib sitting around for three years. That'd be silly. Nobody has the room to do that. Plus, they probably had somebody else that they gifted it to, like I said earlier in the show. I don't think you're being reasonable here. I think you just are being cheap. You don't want to show up and give a gift, and you don't have to. That's my advice for you. If you feel strongly about this, don't go. Or if you feel like too much of a pussy to not go, then go and just don't bring a gift.
 CALLER: I'm not being cheap. I bought a $50 gift card for the first shower four years ago. This isn't about the money.
 LUKE: Well, that's pretty cheap, and obviously it's about the money.
 CALLER: 50 bucks is cheap? For a coworker? Luke, you're out of your mind.
 LUKE: No, I don't think I am. Babies are very expensive. I don't know if you've been around, but shit costs money, man. And you know what? You know what's got me on this whole thing? Is it at what point did men start going to baby showers? Usually baby showers are for the women.
 CALLER: Ranch life, Luke. Small community. Everybody goes to everything.
 LUKE: Well, don't pitch about baby showers then, bitch about ranch life.
 CALLER: Ranch life is fine. It's the principle of the thing. My Uncle Hector raised...
 LUKE: All right, we get it. Nobody cares about your Uncle Hector. And you're a cheap bastard. Don't go to the shower and stop being a pussy. That's what I have to say. And that's the end of our show. Donk.
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 LUKE: All right. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. I am Luke, and this is Luke at the Roost. It's the late-night call-in radio show where you can call in and tell me what's going on. And I'll give you the very best advice that I can. Today is Thursday, March 19th. And if you'd like to give us a call, the number's 208-439-58-3. That's 208-439 Luke. Let's see. Is Devin here today? Devon?
 DEVIN: Yeah, Luke, I'm here just setting up the booth and stuff. What's up?
 LUKE: Where's my coffee?
 DEVIN: Right here, Luke. I got it just black, no sugar. Like you said, picked it up fresh from that place down the street. It's still hot.
 LUKE: All right, I'm very proud of you. I don't know where you found it at midnight on Thursday, March 19th in Animus, New Mexico. But, I mean, you pulled through again. Good for you. I'm very, very proud. Thanks. What do you think we should talk about on the show tonight? Do you have any ideas?
 DEVIN: Thanks, Luke. That means a lot, actually. For topics tonight, maybe we could talk about weird dreams people have had. I had this one last week where I was stuck in a storage unit again, but with like talking animals or something about local history in animas, since I'm always reading up on that stuff at 3 a.m.
 LUKE: All right. I like that idea. I like the weird dreams idea. I had a weird dream maybe last year. I don't dream that much, or if I do, I don't remember my dreams that much. But I had this weird series of dreams last year that were all like monitoring privacy-based dreams. And I thought I was awake. Like, it was very real. And I went outside my RV. And I noticed that there was like this door that wasn't usually there. So I started investigating it. I opened the door. And inside the pointed through a little hole in my RV wall recording me. And then I had like four or five more dreams that same week that were very similar. Somebody was watching me for some reason. I couldn't figure out who it was.
 DEVIN: That sounds kind of creepy, Luke. Like surveillance dreams are the worst. Reminds me of this one I had where I was back in that storage unit with my ex, but instead of talking animals, it was just endless security cameras watching us argue about nothing, the door out. Anyway, should I look up some dream interpretation stuff for the callers tonight?
 LUKE: Yeah, I think that's a good idea. Do that. I mean, now that I'm thinking about that dream again, it was just, it was so weird to me, even in the dream that it was like, it was an 1980s style VHS camcorder, like the kind that you put the VHS tape in, and it was on this makeshift, like a turret to move back and forth. It was really fucking stupid strange.
 DEVIN: Yeah, look up some stuff on dream interpretations and we'll get to the callers and see what they have to say. So I looked it up and according to some psychology sites, dreams about being watched or under surveillance often symbolize feelings of vulnerability, anxiety, or fears of judgment. Like if it's in a private space, it could mean inner conflicts or hidden secrets you're dealing with. For something like finding a creepy old VHS camera spying on you, it might represent paranoia or unresolved privacy issues from your waking life, if that makes sense. Anyway, that's what the articles say.
 LUKE: All right, I don't think I had any unresolved privacy issues, but who knows? Who's to argue with the dreams? All right, first up on our caller line here, we've got Joey. Joey, welcome to the show. Do you have any weird dreams to tell us about? What's going on while you sleep?
 JOEY: Hey, Luke, good to hear from you again. Nah, no weird dreams on my end, but I caught that theme and figured I'd call in anyway with an update on what I vented about yesterday. Turns out one of those celebrities I was griping about actually doubled down on their take today and it's got me fired up all over again.
 LUKE: All right, Joey, but you didn't call in yesterday. I have no idea what you're talking about. Could you re-inform us? Maybe I forgot, but I'm pretty sure there was no Joey on yesterday's show.
 JOEY: Well, maybe I got the day wrong, Luke. It feels like yesterday to me since it's been eating at my thoughts, but I called in a couple nights back about those celebrities spouting off on politics like their experts. You know, the ones with zero real-world grit pushing their opinions, while folks like me are out here grinding. Anyway, the update is, that actor I mentioned, the one from that big superhero flick, he went on some podcast today and straight up defended his stance saying working stiffs like truck drivers don't get the bigger picture. You want to know what really burns me? It's like he's proving my point all over again. Acting like his red carpet life trumps actual experience.
 LUKE: Well, I don't think anybody really gets the bigger picture. I mean, bigger than what? Who has the biggest view of the whole picture, you think? I don't know if it's an actor or a fucking truck driver or a president. I think everybody pretty much only sees the picture that is right in front of their eyes.
 JOEY: Yeah, Luke, I get what you're saying. Nobody's got a God's eye view of everything, that's for sure. But you want to know what really burns me about these actors? They act like their bubble of Hollywood parties and scripted lines, gives them some superior angle, when really, it's just as narrow as what I see from the cab of my UPS trance, hauling packages across these mountains. Folks out here dealing with rising fuel costs and supply chain headaches, we might not see the whole world, but at least our pictures grounded in something tangible, not just what their publicist feeds them.
 LUKE: Yeah, but you don't know that. You don't know what these Hollywood people do in their daily lives. You assume it's all parties and publicists, but they're just regular people too. They have a different job than you do, but I think it's wrong to assume that they're all in a Hollywood bubble.
 JOEY: Fair enough, Luke. I can't peek into every actor's garage or see what they do on their off days. They're human, after all, and some might volunteer or read up on policy like anyone else. But when this guy goes on a podcast and dismisses truck driver's views as small-minded, without ever stepping foot in a warehouse or behind a wheel for more than a photo op, it sure comes off like he's speaking from that insulated world. I mean, I looked it up after his comments today. Turns out he's donated to some think tanks, but nothing hands-on like the community programs us drivers support out here in Arizona. So that's where we're at even if they're not all sipping cocktails 24-7.
 DEVIN: So some actors actually do a lot of charity work and advocacy outside of Hollywood. For example, George Clooney co-founded not on our watch project to prevent mass atrocities. And Angelina Jolie has been a special envoy for the UN Refugee Agency.
 LUKE: Yeah, I mean, you see now that we have social media and stuff and celebrities can share with us part of their normal lives, the videos that I see of a lot of celebrities, So just them being people, you know, having cookouts and fucking nothing all that different from what everybody else is doing. They play music and they draw pictures and they are just, when they're not working, they're not working, just like anybody else.
 JOEY: Yeah, Luke, I hear you on the social media side. I've seen those clips myself, like actors grilling burgers or walking their dogs, and it does humanize them a bit. Shows they're not all red carpet zombies. And Devon, that's solid on Clooney and Jolie. I've read about their projects actually. Clearly, Clooney's group has pushed real legislation on Sudan back in the day, which is more than most of us desk-jockey politicians bother with. But here's the rub for me.
 JOEY: Even with that good work, when an actor like the one I mentioned jumps on a podcast and waves off everyday folks takes on policy, as if we're all just squinting its shadows, it stings because it ignores how our normal lives, mind dodging deer on these Arizona routes or my cousin Rubin clocking overtime at the mill. Shape a perspective that's just as valid, if not more, battle-tested. So that's where we're at with this update. His comments today felt like like a fresh jab at that divide.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, why are you paying attention to an actor's comments on anything? Like, he's got an opinion like anybody else. Like we talked about before, he might have a larger platform to spew that on, but it's still just noise. It's still just an opinion. Why does it bother you so much? Just stop looking at that. You know, you got better stuff to do than whatever actor you don't want to mention is saying on social media.
 JOEY: Yeah, Luke, you're spot on, that it's just one guy's opinion blasting out from a megaphone. and I could scroll past it like a million other posts. But you want to know what really burns me? It's not the actor himself. It's how his words echo what I hear from too many talking heads, making it seem like my take on things, built from years of early mornings loading trucks, and watching how policies hit the road directly, doesn't count because I'm not famous. I mean, after his podcast dropped today, I saw comments from other drivers online feeling the same pinch, like, we're all being sidelined in the conversation that actually affects our routes and paychecks. where we're at. Ignoring it feels like letting that noise drown out the real grit, and with my grandpa, Ernesto, always saying opinions without sweat behind them are just hot air. It hits close to home.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, you've got your opinions. Where's your sweat behind it? You can start your own podcast and spout off your own opinions if you want, and maybe the other truck drivers that are along your route will listen to you. But you're the one that's tuning in to this media and listening to the people that are pissing you off because I think on some level you just want to be pissed off about something. If you want your opinion to matter, do like I said before, and fucking take your time and go down to the town hall and join a board and, you know, do your part. You don't just complain about other people spouting off their opinions. While you spout off your own to me, like, you're not doing anything to improve the situation at all.
 JOEY: Yeah, Luke, I see your point. Tuning into that stuff does keep the fire lit sometimes. And maybe there's a bit of me that gets riled up because it feels personal. Like, my years on these routes don't add up to me. much in their eyes. But actually, I am out there doing my part. I've testified at a couple local town halls in Arizona on supply chain regs last year, backed by data from the American Trucking Associations showing how fuel hikes hit us hardest. And it did push for some state rebates that helped drivers like my cousin Rubin keep his head above water. Starting a podcast? Well, technically, with my ham radio setup, I've already got a way to test the bans and chat policy with folks across the Southwest. Had a group of operators debating trade tariffs just last week.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, that sounds like a real good time. Ham radio discussions on politics. I think most people discourage that on the bands. Ham radio discussions are for talking about ham radios. Everybody knows that. Or, I mean, if you're going to use it for something useful, like weather reporting or disaster reporting or following a fucking parade. But the ham radio is not the place to be having political discussions. If you want your voice to get out to the same sort of platform that these actors are doing, then yeah, a podcast is your way. It's never been easier for you to get your voice out than it is now. And I don't understand myself. Like, first of all, I don't care about, uh, about your years on your route. It's like, nobody does. Nobody gives a shit about you or your specific, uh, what matters to you. Nobody cares but you and the other people that are in your industry. So why should an actor? Like, everybody dismisses everybody else's, opinions. That's what opinions are for. Like, you have yours, everybody else has theirs. Nobody's going to change anybody's. But if you want to do something about it, like if you really want to get your voice out there, then get your voice out there. You have all the same platforms available to you that any actor does today. You couldn't have said that 20 years ago.
 JOEY: Yeah, Luke, fair point on the ham bands. FCC guidelines do steer clear of political chit-chat to keep things emergency focused, like relaying storm updates during monsoon. soon season out here, and I've stuck to that mostly, but those offhand policy riffs with operators do pop up when signals are strong. Podcast-wise, you're right. It's easier than ever with apps like Anchor letting anyone hit record from their truck cab, and I've thought about it, especially after this actor's latest jab today making rounds on Twitter, but you want to know what really burns me about the nobody cares angle. It's not that I expect every actor to nod along to my route stories. Hell, I know opinions clashed like bumpers on I-10, but when one with millions of followers flat out says working folks like lack the vision for big issues, it does feel like a brush off of the sweat equity we put in. Backed by stats from the Bureau of Labor showing truckers move 72% of U.S. freight without the glamour. So that's where we're at. Yeah, I'll keep pushing my voice where it counts. Town halls or otherwise because dismissing the grind doesn't make it vanish.
 LUKE: Yeah, sure. I mean, truckers move most of the truck freight, of course. But nobody cares. You know what actors do? They make 100% of the world's movies and everybody needs them too. So everybody's got their job to do, and you've got yours, and it's not more important than anybody else's, nor is the actors more important than yours. I think if you talk to any single person in America, they're going to complain about the fuel costs. So it's not just affecting you in truck routes. It's affecting literally every product, every person, everything in the economy and the world. So it sounds like you're a little bit self-important here on your truck driving sweat, equity. Like, what does that even fucking mean? Where are you? sweating? Where's the sweat coming in in your whole day? Tell me when you sweat?
 JOEY: Yeah, Luke, nobody's saying truckers are the only ones feeling the fuel squeeze. It's hitting farmers in Iowa, commuters in California, everybody from the corner store owner to the family road tripping to the Grand Canyon. And that's backed by the Energy Information Administration's reports, showing diesel up 30% nationwide this year. But on the sweat part, well, technically, it's not all literal dripping in the Arizona heat. Though, come summer, when I'm loading pallets at the Graham-Campers, hub before dawn, yeah, that's when the shirt sticks and the back aches from heaving 50-pound boxes into the truck without a break. Most days, though, it's the mental grind, plotting routes around construction on Highway 191, dodging monsoon flash floods near the Pelonsillo Mountains, or dealing with that one faulty GPS reroute that added two hours and burned extra gas. All while keeping deliveries on time, so folks like my daughter Kaylee's school gets her supplies without delay. So that's where we're at. showing up consistent, rain or shine. Because if we don't, the whole chain breaks. And it feels like actors glossing over that just to push their takes.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, they're not glossing over that because they have to order their package from Amazon too, right? You've got to bring them their fancy actor coffee or whatever it is that they buy. And you work for fucking UPS.
 LUKE: You drive a UPS truck and you deliver UPS packages, which is great. I mean, we need UPS to deliver packages, but you're acting like. you're the lifeblood of America. And you're just, you're trucking nonsensical shit to nonsensical people and acting like it's the most important job in the world. It's not. It's not even, you're not even paying for the gas. So why are you bitching? UPS is paying for the gas? And they're paying you.
 EARL: Yeah, Luke, actors do get their packages just like anyone else. I've dropped off script revisions and overpriced lattes at Gates in LA more times than I can count. And sure, UPS foots the bill for the diesel, which is why their rates went up 6.5% this year, per their own earnings report, passing costs to customers who then gripe about delivery fees. But you want to know what really burns me about framing it as nonsensical shit? It's not about being the lifeblood or some hero complex. It's that when policies on emissions or tariffs jack up those fuel prices, it ripples out, delays in medical supplies to rural clinics near the Pelonsiloh Mountains, or empty shelves at the store where my grandpa Ernesto picks up his meds. All because drivers like me, are squeezing every mile to make it work. Well, technically, the American Transportation Research Institute ranks trucking as handling 70% of the nation's freight tonnage. So if that's not stitching the country together, I don't know what is, even if half the loads are gadgets nobody needs. So that's where we're at. The actor's podcast take today ignored that chain reaction, making it sound like our gripes are just noise, when really it's the backbone keeping his coffee arriving on time.
 LUKE: No, well, I'm acting like your gripes are just noise, because you're acting like you're a long, haul trucker shipping, uh, critical medical supplies across the country for a kid with leukemia. And you're not. You work for fucking UPS. You drive your UPS route, regardless of what's going on in the economy or what's going on on on the roads. You get paid an hourly wage to do a job. And you do that job. And that's, that's your fucking purview. So you don't, you don't have this, uh, large breadth of policy experience like you're spouting off is being, uh, dismissed by the actors in Hollywood. And it's annoying me. Like, you don't have anything to stand on here. You're just a guy doing a job for UPS.
 EARL: Yeah, Luke, you're right that I'm not out there like some long-haul legend crisscrossing the Midwest with organ transplants. I'm a local UPS route driver in Arizona, clocking those Graham County loops and sticking to my schedule, come hell or high water, paid by the hour to get the job done. But, well, technically, even on these shorter halls, I've carried everything from chemotherapy meds to the local hospital to vaccines during the pandemic rollout. As per UPS's own logistics report showing we handled over a billion doses nationwide, so it's not all frivolous fluff when policies tweak fuel or regs and slow us down. You want to know what really burns me about the actors' podcast today? He lumped all us, truck drivers, into this clueless bucket, ignoring how even route guys like me see the policy hits firsthand. Like when those new emissions rules added compliance costs that UPS passed on, delaying shipments to families counting on them. So that's where we're at. Dismissing it as just my purview feels like echoing his take, when really it's the everyday chain that keeps the whole system from grinding to a halt.
 LUKE: Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I don't think that UPS keeps the whole system from grinding to a halt. They don't. You're delivering largely toilet paper to people that don't want to go to the store and get it themselves. And you're acting like you're the lifeblood of America. And maybe you're the salt of the earth. We'll give you that one. You're a blue-collar guy 5 a.m. to get the job done. But that doesn't give you any level of experience on policy. And I just, I don't buy this whole bit about, uh, about how fuel and regs slow you down. They don't. They don't matter to you. Fuel and regs, if, if the UPS has to raise its prices and give that, uh, that cost to the consumer, that has nothing to do with you. The consumer is paying that. You're getting paid the same same amount regardless of what the fuel price is.
 EARL: Yeah, Luke, I get why you'd pushback on UPS being the whole system's glue. It's not like we're the only game in town with FedEx and the post office hauling loads too, but according to the Council of Supply Chain Management professionals, parcel delivery, like ours, supports over 10 million jobs nationwide. So when regs or fuel spikes hit, it does ripple to overtime cuts or route consolidations that squeeze us drivers. And on the pay side, well, technically, my hourly wage hasn't budged in two years years, despite diesel jumping from three bucks to over five a gallon out here in Arizona, per the U.S. Energy Information Administration's weekly averages, which means I'm covering more ground for the same check while UPS tweaks incentives to offset their costs. You want to know what really burns me tying back to that actor's podcast update today. He painted folks in my shoes as policy blind, without acknowledging how those everyday pressures give us a front row seat to what works or flops, not some ivory tower guesswork. So that's where we're at. It's not about claiming top billing.
 LUKE: shakes in the debate. And you have a fair shake in the debate. You have Instagram, you have Facebook, you have YouTube, you have TikTok, you've got podcasts, you've got whatever method you want to get your voice out on, you can do that. And you're not, you're calling me and complaining about the actors using theirs. So stop that. And if you have something to say, if you've got a solution, then present it. But that's not what I'm hearing here. You're not presenting any solution. You're just complaining that you don't get a chance to present a solution not true. You have the same chance as anybody else. You don't have the huge audience that those people have built in. You got to build that. But you can. And look, I drive a diesel truck too. And diesel today was $5.20 a gallon. I live 100 miles from anything. To go to the grocery store, it cost me $50. To go anywhere. To go anywhere, it cost me $50. So I fully understand. Everybody understands that the fucking situation is out of control. And that's caused by nobody except for the one dude that decided to bomb Iran. He said that one person made that decision to fuck up the whole world. And it's got nothing to do with the actors spouting off policy decisions.
 EARL: Yeah, Luke, you're absolutely right that I've got access to all those platforms. Instagram for Quick Rout Rants or YouTube for breaking down how tariffs mess with freight flows. And building an audience takes time, like how that actor grinded through auditions before his big break. no excuses there on my end. And on the diesel, man 520 a gallon hits hard everywhere. I've filled up at pumps in Safford seeing the same sticker shock you describe. And studies from the American Petroleum Institute back that up, showing rural drivers like us absorbing 20% more of the hike percentage-wise due to longer halls, just to reach basics. But while technically, pinning it all on that Iran situation overlooks the domestic regs layered on top. Like the EPA's clean fuel standards that added two cents per gallon this quarter per their own filings. which is where the actor's podcast update today rubbed me wrong. He blamed it solely on worker complacency without touching those policy nuts and bolts that us ground-level folks navigate daily. So that's where we're at. Yeah? Solutions over gripes. And maybe I'll clip a video on that next fill-up to push for smarter rebates.
 LUKE: Yeah, and I'm not talking about the two-cent tax on fuel. I'm talking about the dollar-50 it went up in the last two weeks.
 JOEY: Yeah, Luke, that one-fifty spike in the last two weeks is brutal. No doubt. I've topped off my tank. twice since and watched the pump click past 20 bucks just for half a fill. And the U.S. Energy Information Administration's daily reports confirm it jumped from 470 to 620 average nationwide over that stretch, mostly tied to those Middle East tensions you mentioned. But, well, technically, even with the big geopolitical whack, the layered regs, like the renewable diesel mandates, have baked in an extra baseline cost that doesn't budge, per the Department of Energy's quarterly analysis, which is exactly the kind of nuance that actor glossed over in his podcast today for whining without seeing the full picture. So that's where we're at. The spike hurts, but it's the combo that grinds us down, and dismissing one side's view just widens the gap.
 LUKE: Well, your view is short-sighted. You're talking about a very small bit here. All of the things that you're referring to are minute compared to the Iran business. Okay? And maybe it costs you 40 bucks to fill your tank. It costs me 150. So, I mean, I understand that fuel sucks.
 JOEY: Yeah, Luke, I won't argue that the Iran fallout isn't the elephant in the room. It's driven over 80% of that recent surge, according to the International Energy Agency's latest market report. And your 150 bucks to fill up sounds like a gut punch compared to my 40 on a smaller tank, especially living that far out. But, well, technically, calling the regs minute, overlooks how they've compounded the baseline by 15 to 20 cents per gallon over the past five years. As detailed in the government accountability, office's audit on transportation costs, turning a bad spike into a sustained bleed for drivers like us. You want to know what really burns me in that actor's podcast update today?
 LUKE: No.
 JOEY: He zeroed in on geopolitics as the villain, but skipped how those domestic policies amplify it, leaving folks like my cousin Rubin thinking our input on fixes, like targeted rebates, gets sidelined as short-sighted, too.
 LUKE: Well, they are short-sighted, and I don't even know what actor you're talking about or what he was referring to, but if you're complaining about 20 cents over five years when there's a... global energy crisis and diesel almost doubled in the last two weeks alone, then yeah, that's short-sighted and you're a fucking asshole.
 JOEY: Yeah, Luke, calling it short-sighted stings, and you're right that the global crisis dwarfs those 20 cents over time. Diesel doubling in two weeks is a crisis all its own, per the oil price information services tracking. And I get why that overshadows the regs for most folks. But, well, technically, it's not asshole territory to flag how those smaller layers turn a temporary hit into a chronic one. As the Federal Highway Administration's cost models show they've added up to 10% more in operational expenses for fleets like UPS since 2018, without proportional wage adjustments for drivers. You want to know what really burns me about the actor. It's Ryan Reynolds in his latest Maximum Effort podcast episode today, where he ripped into blue-collar winers over fuel, without mentioning how domestic policies like the biofuels push exacerbate the pain, making it feel like our full view gets painted as petty. So that's where we're at. The Big Spike Rules, but ignoring the stack just leaves half the story untold.
 LUKE: Yeah, the unimportant half of the story. So basically, maximum effort is Ryan Reynolds' production company. And it looks like they make movies, TV shows, and other content. But I don't see any specific podcast called Maximum Effort where he talks about biofuels or anything like that. Well, anyway, I've had enough of this conversation. I agree with Ryan Reynolds on this, and you're just caught up on self-importance here. Goodbye, Joey. Don't call back. Ugh. Next up we've got Sheila. Sheila, welcome to the show. Uh, have you had any weird dreams lately? Any weird dreams about biofuel?
 SHEILA: Oh, Luke. The biofuel dream. No, but I've got one that are top that. Last night, I dreamed a rattlesnake was coiled up right in my kitchen sink, staring me down like it owned the place. And when I woke up sweating, I went to make coffee. And there it really was, just like in the dream.
 LUKE: Oh, that's pretty creepy. So basically, dreaming of snakes can symbolize hidden fears or transformations. And the kitchen often represents nourishment or domestic life. What'd you do with the snake when you woke up? There was a real rattlesnake in your kitchen sink?
 SHEILA: Yeah, real as it gets. Luke, rattler, about three feet long, just chilling in the sink like it was waiting for breakfast. I froze for a second, heart pounding, then grabbed a broom from the whole closet, and a pillowcase from the laundry. Figured I'd try to scoop it up without getting bits since I'm out here alone most nights. Took about 10 minutes of coaxing it into the bag. And then I drove it out to the edge of town and let it go near some rocks. It slithered off like nothing happened.
 LUKE: Well, that's pretty ballsy. I don't know if I would have handled it the same humane way that you did. I think I probably would have been too scared for that and throw knives at it or something. Try to smash it with a fucking... I don't know. I'm looking around for something I could smash a rattlesnake with. All I really have are mason jars full of pipe tobacco.
 SHEILA: Oh man, Luke. Mason jars of pipe tobacco? You'd end up with the world's most confused snake. Probably think it's a fancy spa treatment and just coil up in there, puffing away. But yeah, I didn't want to kill it if I could help it. Out here in Blob, we've got enough of those slithery locals that, relocating ones the way to go, especially since. I've got that survival streak from all the camping trips. Sounds crazy when I say it out loud. But it was either that, or call animal control, and wait an hour while my coffee went cold.
 LUKE: Well, you really earned that coffee. So basically, rattlesnakes are venomous, but they usually only bite if they feel threatened, and they can control how much venom they inject. That's interesting. I didn't know they could control the venom output amount. So, I mean, they make a decision. when they bite you, whether or not to kill or just injure? That's fascinating. I've lived out here for a few. I've been in the desert for maybe five years now, and I still haven't seen a rattlesnake, which is fine by me. I don't really want to. And I try to make sure when I go out into the wilderness, especially at night that I make a lot of noise, I leave the truck running for a little while or let them know that I'm in the area and hope they just go away. And so far, that's worked out for me.
 SHEILA: Yeah. All that noise is a solid plan out here, Luke. I've done the same on my camping trips up in the Tonto National Forest, clanging pots or just yelling like an idiot to give him fair warning. And it usually works unless they're already in a mood. Globes got more rocks and crevices than you can shake a stick at. So they love hiding out. But five years without spotting one? You're either lucky or you've got some kind of snake-repelling aura going on.
 LUKE: Maybe I'm a snake myself. and I can speak to them. I don't know. Is there something else you'd like to tell the callers? We're going to have to go to a break from our sponsors soon, but we'll give you one more chance to let the people know whatever it is that's on your mind.
 SHEILA: Ha, if you're a snake whisperer, Luke, send some of that vibe my way next time one shows up uninvited. Nah, I think the snake sagas enough weirdness for one call. It's got me double-checking the cabinets before bed now. Thanks for letting me ramble. Appreciate the ears.
 LUKE: All right, and good luck to you tonight. Hopefully no more snakes. That was cool of you to humanely re-home the snake instead of smashing its head in with a mason jar. I don't know that I would have been able to do that.
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 RED: Hey, Luke, thanks for taking my call, man. So this weird dream theme hit me right in the good. gut, because last night I had one that was straight out of left field. I dreamt I was back in high school arguing with the principal about some book they wanted to pull, and I woke up fired up enough to actually go to the school board meeting today about my kid's class reading list. Oh, and another thing, I was nervous as hell, because in a town like animus where everybody's in your business, but cross my heart, it turned out amazing. They listened, backed off the bands. And now my boy's not going to be the weird kid for having a dad who speaks up. Where was I? Yeah, the dream felt so real, like Rod Sterling scripted it himself, you know?
 LUKE: I have no idea who Rod Sterling is. So basically, Rod Serling was the creator, writer, and host of The Twilight Zone, which explains why the caller mentioned him when talking about a dream that felt really real and a little bit surreal. All right, what was the book that you didn't want your kid reading? Did I hear that right? You didn't want your kid reading the book?
 RED: No, no. Luke, you got it backwards. I was fighting to keep the book in the curriculum. Not pull it. It was The Bluest Eye by Tony Morse. One of those are trying to yank because of some language and themes. But cross my heart, it's a classic that teaches real stuff about empathy and history. And my boy's in eighth grade. You know, prime time for that kind of discussion. Oh, and another thing, the dream had me yelling at the principal just like I ended up doing for real at the meeting. Felt like the universe was giving me a nudge or something. Where was I? Yeah. So I stood up there in front of the board, laid it out plain, or a tiny spot like animus, can't afford to hide the world from our kids, and they actually the whole list, said they'd review it properly. F felt good, man. Like I dodged being the town pariah, and did right by him at the same time.
 LUKE: Right. Well, good for you. So the caller is from a town called animas. And there's actually a small town in New Mexico named animas that has a population of around 200 people. Animus. So Tony Morrison won the Nobel Prize in literature in 1993. And the bluest eye. was her first novel published in 1970. I thought it would have been the blackest eye for piping up like that. So I was maybe like a year ago, I had a little tiny phase that I never followed through with where I was going to read important books. And Tony Morrison came up on all those lists of the authors that you should read. Why is it that they wanted to ban the book? What was the rationale behind that? What were the themes that were questionable?
 RED: Yeah. Luke? That joke cracked me up. Blackest eye, ha! But nah, nobody swung at me. Just a few side eyes from the old guard in the room. Oh, and you're left it. Only Morrison, right? She's the one. Powerhouse writer. And yeah, she tops those must-read lists for good reason. So the rationale from the folks pushing the ban, mostly it was a handful of parents griping about the language. There's some rough stuff in there, swear words and all, and the heavy themes like racism, self-image for black girls in a white Yeah, sexual abuse, it hits hard, because it's based on real ugly parts of history. So basically, the bluest eye is frequently challenged because it talks about really tough stuff, like racism, sexual abuse, and how black girls see themselves in a world that's mostly white.
 LUKE: Well, I obviously don't think any books should be banned, but is that... I haven't read the book, so I really have nothing to stand on here, but is that appropriate for eighth grade?
 RED: That's a fair question, Luke. And yeah, it's got me thinking, too, because eighth grade's that awkward spot where kids are old enough to handle some grit, but not quite ready for the full weight of the world. Oh, and another thing. In my view, that's exactly why it's spot on. My boys' class was diving into it with a teacher who breaks it down, talking about how beauty standards mess with folks, especially in places like ours where diversity is slim, and it sparks real conversations without sugar-coating. Where was I?
 LUKE: I don't know. Where were you? Common Sense Media says that the bluest eye is often recommended for ages 14 and up, which would typically be high school students, but some parents in their reviews thought it was appropriate for mature middle scores. Yeah, I don't know. I think at 14, you're pretty much mature enough to handle any type of concept or worldview, but I'm not a parent, so I don't really know. When I was 14, though, I'm pretty sure I was aware of racism and sexual assault. and things of that nature. I don't know. I don't know anything about kids.
 RED: Yeah, Luke, you're spot on about 14 being that tipping point. Kids pick up on the world's mess faster than we give them credit for, especially out here in the sticks, where news travels slow, but hits hard when it does. Oh, and another thing, my bully. He's sharp as attack. Already asking questions about fairness and all that after just starting the book, and it beats the heck out of pretending those issues don't exist. Where was I? Right? And you mentioning your wrong? own 14-year-old self rings true for me too. Back then, I was knee-deep in ranch work and hearing stories from the old-timers that opened my eyes wide. No filter needed.
 LUKE: Yeah, I mean, nobody's really talked about banning the Bible, and there's really no book that's more obscene or covers more territory than that one. So I don't understand where the outrage comes Like, people will defend the Bible and push down other books that have violence or sexism or racism in them. But the Bible's the worst of them all.
 RED: Yeah, Luke, you're preaching to the choir on that one. The Bible's packed with everything from floods wiping out the world to some wild family drama that makes modern soap operas look tame. And folks clutch it like it's the gold standard, while flipping out over a novel that just shines a light on real pain. Oh, and another thing, growing up around here, hear an animus, church was the social hub on Sundays, and we'd hear those stories straight from the pulpit. No edits. So why the double stated when it's Tony Morrison laying out the truth about racism scars? Where was I? Right. It bugs me too. Like hypocrisy's the real sin, nobody wants to ban from the shelves.
 LUKE: Is Tony Morrison black?
 RED: Yeah, Luke. Tony Morrison's black. Born and raised in Ohio to working class parents who pass down stories that fueled her writing. And that's part of what makes the bluest eye hits so personal. She's drawing from lived experience on how race twists self-worth, especially for girls like the ones in the book. Oh, and another thing. It's why banning it feels like erasing voices that need hearing in classrooms, you know? Where was I? Right.
 RED: So yeah, she's a Trailblazer Nobel winner and all, shining that light nobody else could quite like her. Well, that explains why they want to ban it, so it really doesn't have anything to do with the content. It has to do with the color of who wrote it.
 LUKE: Yeah, Luke. You might be on to something there.
 RED: In a place like animas, where the faces in the room at that board meeting were mostly the same shade. Pushing back on a black woman's take on racism feels less about the words on the page and more about keeping certain stories out of sight. Oh, and another thing. It crossed my mind while I was up there speaking, wondering if that's why a couple of the louder parents were so red-faced. But cross my heart, the board chair, who's a fair sort? Shut that noise down and went with the review instead. Where was I? Right. So yeah, it's a wind that stings a little, knowing undercurrent, but at least my kid gets to read it now without the drama.
 LUKE: All right, well, good job getting the book back on the shelves in the school for the eighth graders.
 RED: Maybe I'll read it one day, but probably not. Maybe they'll turn it into a movie one day, and I'll watch the movie, but probably not. I still don't think any books should be banned at any age. If a kid wants to read a book, they should be allowed to. And I do think that maybe those books should be suggestions in school, like a list of suggested books, and on books everybody has to read. I remember being a first. freshman in high school and them trying to make me read Romeo and Juliet, and I was just like, no, I'm not fucking reading that. I know exactly what happens in that book. There are so many other books I could be reading, and you're telling me to read these same, you know, 12 books that everybody else read. That doesn't make sense to me. Everybody should be able to choose the books that they want to read, you know, within specific, some kind of guidelines, I guess, for difficulty, You know, pick from a list of Nobel Prize winning authors or certain topics, something like that, a certain amount of pages, some kind of criteria, but not actually defining the books, because then everybody comes out of school with the same exact view on everything. And the stories are shitty that they pick.
 LUKE: Yeah, Luke, you're nailing it on letting kids pick their reads.
 RED: Forcing Romeo and Juliet down my throat in high school felt like punishment for something I didn't do. All that star-cross drama, when I could have been cracking open something about the desert or ranches that actually spoke to life out here. Oh, and another thing, now that the board's reviewing the whole list, my boys got options like that Nobel stuff, or even some Southwest authors that hit closer to home. Keeps things fresh instead of recycling the same old canon that never quite fit a place like animas. Where was I? Right. So yeah, guidelines make sense for the basics, but choice? Yeah, choice is where it's at. Give everybody the opportunity to grow up their own way and learn about what they want to learn about and read what actually speaks to the not fucking Bayowulf. Seriously? Baywolf? Enough. Enough. Enough with Shakespeare, too. All right. We get it. Everybody saw the movie. We can move on from Shakespeare.
 LUKE: All right, sir. Well, we've got to go to the next call now. So is there anything else you'd like to say to the audience before we cut you off?
 RED: Thanks, Luke. me ramble on about it. Take care out there.
 LUKE: All right there, Red. You read whatever it is, your goddamn little heart desires. Next up on the show, we've got Denise. Denise, welcome to the show. Tell us about some weird crazy dreams that you've had.
 DENISE: Hi, Luke. Thanks for having me on. Okay, so this dream I had the other night was straight up nightmare fuel. I walked in on my boyfriend Trey watching this porn that had all this age play stuff in it, like grown adults pretending to be kids or whatever, and I just froze there staring at the screen. Honestly, it felt so real I woke up sweating. But then I realized it wasn't a dream at all, because I'd actually caught him doing that for real a couple days ago.
 LUKE: What? You caught him watching a porn or you caught him doing like the age play stuff? A couple of colors have called in recently about the age play thing, which I find odd. On the spectrum of fetish stuff, it's one of the weirder ones.
 DENISE: No, no, he was just watching it on his laptop in the living room. Nothing like him actually doing any of that himself, thank God. But honestly, Luke, the way it was set up, With these outfits and the whole pretend scenario, it just hit me wrong, you know? I mean, we've been together almost a year now, and Trey's always seemed pretty normal. But seeing that made me wonder if that's what he's really into deep down. Like, does he want me to, I don't know, play along or something?
 LUKE: I don't know. Did you ask him? Did you talk to him about her at all? Maybe he was just exploring for his own curiosity to see what it was about. You know, that's easy to do. You just scrolling on the internet, you see something weird and look into it. But it might be something. talk to him about and see if that's really like a fantasy or something important to him.
 DENISE: Yeah, I did bring it up with him right after, because I couldn't just let it sit there in my head like that. I hear you on the curiosity thing, Luke. It makes sense how people stumble into stuff online, but when I asked him straight up what the deal was, he got all defensive and said it was just a one-time click, nothing more. But I'm not even kidding. The next morning I found his browser history cleared out, and then he started acting extra sweet, like buying me flowers out of nowhere, which he never. does. Now I'm second-dressing everything, wondering if my grandma Yolanda was right about him all along. She calls him that slick-talking drifter, because he bounced around jobs before we met.
 LUKE: Well, I don't see how that's related to wanting to dress up in little boy clothes, but whatever. So here's what I think you should do. I think you should let him catch you looking at some, like, crazy, hardcore, interracial porn. And when he says something to you about it, then get really sweet with him bring him like a pacifier.
 DENISE: Whoa, Luke. That's savage. I can just picture his face if I pulled that on him, handing over a pacifier like it's no big deal. But honestly, I'm not even kidding. Part of me wants to test it out now. See if he squirms the way I did. My family's already side-eyeing tray hard, especially after that time he showed up late to my cousin's barbecue smelling like cheap whiskey, and this would just give them more ammo to say I should have stuck with my ex.
 LUKE: So basically age play is a type of role play where a Take on the persona of a child, often involving costumes and props. It's usually a consensual fantasy, but it can be a part of some kink communities. Yeah, I don't think the role play thing is that weird. It's not my thing, but I don't think anybody's harming anybody there. I don't think it goes into, like, molestation. It's not a sexual-based thing, which is, which makes it a weird kink, because it's not about sex stuff. It's more about, like, uh, um, I don't know. a mother and a child or a daddy in a child. It's more about a power dynamic than it is about sex type stuff. So, I mean, I wouldn't say it's wrong. I wouldn't look at him differently for being into that. It's more of a curiosity. Like, what, what is it about that that makes you interested? What does that do for you? Why, why is that even porn? Like, what part of, they're not having sex. They're not doing anything remotely sexual. So how is that, how is that porn? And if that, If that is considered porn, then why isn't just watching anything that you're into considered porn?
 DENISE: Yeah, Luke, I get what you're saying about the power dynamic side of it. Like, if it's all just adults playing pretend, without anyone getting hurt, maybe it's not the end of the world.
 LUKE: Listen, Denise, we've got to go to a word from our sponsors. Is there anything else you'd like to ask or say to the audience before we get off the line?
 DENISE: No, Luke. That's all for me. Thanks for listening in this straight talk. Appreciate it.
 LUKE: All right. Thanks for calling in with your weird dream. That was a weird one. And now, ladies and gentlemen, it's time for a word from our sponsors. I used to sleep on a rolled up horse blanket. I'm not saying that for sympathy. I'm saying it because Pillow Forever asked me to establish a before state, and that's mine. Pillow Forever is a memory foam pillow that remembers your head shape so you don't have to. It's got cooling gel, bamboo fiber, and a 30-night risk-free trial, which means you can sleep on it for a month and then send it back, and someone in a warehouse is to deal with that. Every pillow forever comes in a box that's too small, experience. You open it and it slowly expands like a nature documentary. My dog tried to fight it. Pillow forever. You deserve better than a horse blanket. You do. You really do. You deserve better than a horse blanket. All right, Devin. Devin, what do you think about the whole age play thing? It seems like the type of thing you would be into.
 DEVIN: Age play, like the whole pretending to be kids or whatever in bed. I mean, I tried something kind of like that once with this girl from my undergrad psych class. We ended up role playing as like lost hikers instead, which was way less weird and more about the survival stuff. But honestly, it just made me think about my own childhood hikes with my dad that always ended in getting lost for real. Not really my thing per se, but hey, whatever floats people's boats if it's consensual.
 LUKE: Do you think it's weird? Do you think it should be classified as like a kink? Do you think it's a sexual thing or is it something else entirely?
 DEVIN: Yeah, I do think it's weird in a subjective way. Like, it definitely stands out from vanilla stuff, but weird doesn't make it wrong if everyone's consenting and not harming anyone. Actually, looking it up, it's pretty much classified as a kink or fetish in role play circles, often tied to BDSM, or older. And it can be sexual, but sometimes it's more about emotional comfort or just escaping adult stresses without the bedroom part. Reminds me of how my ex used to do this whole daddy issues therapy thing that veered into weird territory. But anyway, live and let live.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, the daddy thing and the BDSM thing are a little bit different than what I'm talking about with age play, wouldn't it? When somebody says age play to me, I'm thinking about like grown adults on binkies and wearing bonnets and shit.
 DEVIN: Yeah, that's specifically the adult baby diaper lover thing or ABDL. It's a form of age play where adults regress to an infant-like state with diapers, pacifiers, pacifiers, and bonnets for comfort, emotional release, or sometimes sexual reasons. But it's not always tied to BDSM or daddy dynamics. Apparently, it's more about nurturing and escaping adult responsibilities than anything else, per what I just pulled up.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, I mean, you could escape adult responsibilities in lots of ways that don't require regressing all the way to a baby. I mean, you could escape adulthood by pretending to be a teenager, perhaps, or at least a toddler. Somebody that's out of the diaper. What is it with the diapers?
 DEVIN: So pulling from some psych articles and community stuff, the diaper part in ABDL often ties back to a fetish for some. It's sexually arousing because of the vulnerability or taboo feel. But for others, it's about reliving the total care and security of infancy, especially if they had early bedwetting issues or just need that non-sexual escape from grown-up stress. Kind of makes me think of how I used to hide under my blankets as a kid pretending the world didn't exist. But yeah, it's all about personal comfort zones.
 LUKE: Well, it doesn't seem very comfortable at all for anybody involved. Like, a diaper can't be comfortable. I don't remember the last time I wore a diaper, but I think I was probably like three.
 DEVIN: Actually, a lot of folks in the ABDL community, say modern adult diapers are way more comfortable than what kids wore back in the day. Like, they're soft, absorbent, and designed for all day wear without chafing, which gives this sense of security and relaxation that helps with stress relief. I mean, I get the skepticism, but for them, it's less about the baby era and more about that padded hug feeling.
 DEVIN: Kind of like how I used to wrap myself in old towels as a kid to feel safe during storms. Do they use the diapers? Like that? That's something I wondered and never felt the need to ask anybody. But like, do they piss in the diapers? Does somebody have to change their diapers for them? Or do they just like wearing the diapers?
 LUKE: Yeah, from what I just pulled up on ABDL, communities, it varies a lot. Some people just wear the diapers for the comfort or sensory feel without using them at all. But others do wet them with urine or even mess with bowel movements as part of the regression. And, yeah, changing is often a big ritual where a caregiver handles it to amp up that nurturing dynamic. Kind of reminds me of how my grandma used to change my cousins back in the day during family reunions, all matter of fact, and no big deal. But anyway, it's all consensual and personal.
 DEVIN: When I was a kid, I went to summer camp one summer. It was in, I think, Vermont or something like that. And we, I can't remember what the camp was called, but I do remember it had three different It had the Moes. That was the boys' room. And the Joe's was the girls' room. And then they had the flows. And those ones had water. And every season, you're going to have to dig a new hole and move the bathrooms to the new location because they couldn't just keep shitting in the same hole. But anyway, the point of the story is that when I was at that camp, I was probably like, I don't know, 10 maybe. I shit my pants. And it was very important embarrassing, and I had to go to the nurse's office because I shit my pants. I don't know how anybody found out. I mean, maybe they just smelled it. I don't know if I was walking around with shitty pants or what. But I had to go to the nurse's office, and I remember standing in like a bucket. And the nurse was cleaning my ass with a sponge. But I was definitely, definitely old enough to clean my own ass.
 LUKE: Yeah, that sounds mortifying. Summer camps can be brutal like that. All that forced togetherness with no escape. Reminds me at the time I was about 11 and had this epic stomach bug on a family road trip. Ended up crapping my shorts in the back of the van while my dad was yelling about traffic. My mom had to hose me down at a gas station, and I was old enough to handle it, but just froze up completely.
 DEVIN: Yeah, she hosed you down at a gas station? That's pretty fucked up, man.
 LUKE: Okay. Next up we've got Barb. Barb, welcome to the show. Have you ever shit your pants on a road trip? And tell us about your weirdest dream.
 BARB: Luke, oh my God, no, I have not shit my pants on a road trip. But I did have this dream last night where I was driving through a dust storm out by the Boo heel, and aliens were chasing me in these blowing pickup trucks, and I swear it felt so real I woke up checking the windows.
 LUKE: So basically, the Boothiel is a region in the southwestern part of New Mexico, and it's known for being pretty remote and having a lot of desert landscapes. The boot heel, boot heel, like the heel of the boot, Devin. Not the boot eel. Fucking weirdo.
 BARB: Yeah, well, are you sure it was a dream? Because I have heard stories of alien encounters out here in the boot heel.
 LUKE: Yeah, Luke. I am sure it was a dream. But honestly, I'm not even kidding. I've always believed those aliens have been out in the booth eel for real. Like the stories from the old timers around Deming. And that dream just had me convinced they were right on my tail the whole way to El Paso. So basically, New Mexico is actually pretty well known for UFO and aliens sightings, like the Roswell incident. And the lore is kind of part of the culture there.
 LUKE: All right. So, well, you had this dream the aliens were chasing. Do you know why they were chasing you? And did you feel differently when you woke up? Like maybe it wasn't a dream? Do you think they visited you before?
 BARB: Luke, I don't know why they were chasing me exactly, but in the dream, it was like they thought I had some kind of map or something hidden in my glove compartment. And I kept swerving through these massive dust clouds, trying to lose them, heart pounding the whole time. When I woke up, I felt this weird rush. Like, honestly, it wasn't just a dream because my hands were shaking and I jumped out of bed to look outside, but nothing was there, just the wind picking up like it does this time of year. And yeah, I've always thought they've visited before. Not me personally, maybe, but out in the boothiel, for sure. Like those lights people see over by the border? I'm not even them scouting around.
 LUKE: You think it's got to be the aliens scouting around? It couldn't have anything to do with all the military bases and secret government programs out here for all of New Mexico's history?
 BARB: Luke, come on. I get what you're saying about the military bases and all that secret stuff out there. But honestly, I'm not even kidding. Those lights people see aren't just some government test flight. Like I've talked to folks in Deming who swear they've seen things move in ways no plane could. And that dream just confirmed it for me. Those trucks weren't huge human, they were humming with this otherworldly glow.
 LUKE: Well, the vehicles themselves were aliens, you think? Or they were just alien technology? Were they trucks or were they beings?
 BARB: No, Luke. They were definitely pickup trucks, like old Ford models, but glowing blue from the inside. And I could see these shadowy figures driving them, not quite human, with these elongated heads or something. So, yeah, the beings were inside, using the trucks like they were blending in with our That humming sound they made, it wasn't any engine I've ever heard around here.
 LUKE: Well, I know if I were an alien and I came down to New Mexico, I would probably bring my own vehicle. I wouldn't want to use these primitive Ford trucks, especially not now with the price of diesel. Jesus, they probably have some sort of alien technology, fusion or something to power their own vehicles. Why wouldn't they just stay in their vessels that they came here in? You think they landed a spaceship here and then got out of it and found some Ford Broncos or Ford F-150s and decided to chase you around the boot heel in those? That doesn't make any sense. Why would they do that? For a map? What do they need your map for?
 BARB: Luke, I hear you on that. The diesel prices are insane right now. But in the dream, it was like they were trying to blend in. You know, using our trucks to not scare everyone off right away. And maybe they ditched the spaceship because it was too big or something. Landed it out in the desert where no one's looking. As for the map, honestly, I'm not even kidding. It felt like they knew I had this old family thing from my mom, like a sketched out route through the booth heel that Ray once found in her stuff after her stroke. And they were after it because it led to some hidden spot. I don't know, but the chase was so intense. I could feel the dust in my throat, even after I woke up.
 LUKE: See, you know, I want to believe you, but think about that. If there's no part of the landscape isn't under surveillance by satellite imagery technology. We've got blimps up heat-seeking blimps looking for migrants over the desert here. If there was something on the desert, it would get seen by something. Maybe not someone, but definitely a satellite. So at this point, we would definitely be aware of that. I think what all of these sightings are, it just has to be military operations. It makes no other sense.
 BARB: Luke, I can't get the surveillance thing, all those satellites and blimps out there watching everything. But honestly, I'm not even kidding. The Boothiel's got these vast, empty stretches where nothing picks up. Like folks around Deming talk about dead zones for signals. And if aliens are smart, they'd know how to slip through that, not some clunky military op that lights up every radar. That dream had me questioning it all over again.
 LUKE: Like, maybe they've been hiding right under our noses the whole time.
 EARL: Well, no, what you're talking about is a cell phone signal, which is propagated by towers that speak to each other. That's a different thing. You've got dead zones there, but I'm talking about satellite imagery, where there's fleets of satellites orbiting in outer space that can see the entire landmass of the Earth. There's nothing that they can hide from. There's no dead spot for a satellite.
 LUKE: Luke, I hear you on the difference between cell signals and satellites up there snapping pictures of everything. But honestly, I'm not even. Even kidding, if these aliens are as advanced as people say, they'd have ways to cloak or jam that imagery, like bending light or whatever. Not just hiding in a dead zone for phones. It doesn't shake my belief one bit, especially after that dream had me wide awake thinking about all the unreported stuff out in the booth heel.
 EARL: Well, no, because, I mean, the satellites see all the landmass. So it would make no sense. It would be too much work for them to try and bend the light around to hide themselves in the desert, it would make way more sense for the aliens to land their ships in, like, the jungle under heavy tree cover or in caves. And we're not, there's not a ton of those around here.
 LUKE: Luke, I hear you about the jungles and caves being better cover. But out here in the boot heel, it's all flat desert and scrub, no real trees to hide under. So maybe that's why they go for the blending in trick with those trucks, slipping right past the satellites like ghosts. Honestly, I'm not even kidding. It makes perfect sense to me after that dream, chasing me through the dust like they owned the place.
 EARL: All right, I'm just not buying it with the whole. I mean, they had to come here in some sort of a vehicle, a spaceship, a vessel, and they had to land that somewhere. It's not invisible, unless it is invisible. Maybe they land here in invisible space shuttles, and then they steal our trucks and chase us. But I don't think so. I just don't think that could happen. It would be easier. It would take less in a vessel and put that vessel somewhere where our satellite imagery and radar couldn't see it, which would not be here in the desert. This would be the last place that they would come.
 LUKE: Luke, I hear you pushing back on the desert being the worst spot for them to land. And yeah, invisible ships would be ideal. But honestly, I'm not even kidding. Those old stories from the Boothiel aren't about jungles. They're about right here in the scrub where the government's got all those bases anyway, so maybe the aliens figure it's the perfect camouflage, blending their tech with our own weird ops. That dream had them so close I could almost touch that glow, and it doesn't feel far-fetched to me at all.
 EARL: Well, no, no, it's not the perfect camouflage. It's terrible camouflage. That's what I'm saying. This is the worst possible place they could land because of, first of all, because there's no cover anywhere, so they can't hide their shit anywhere, and because the military is everywhere. So, I mean, This is the largest concentration of radar and military surveillance anywhere in the country. This would be the absolute worst place for aliens to land and chase people. They would go anywhere else, anywhere.
 LUKE: Luke, I hear you loud and clear on how exposed the boo heel is, with all that military radar buzzing around. And, yeah, it sounds like the last place they'd risk showing up. But honestly, I'm not even kidding. Exactly why I think they're here, using the chaos of our own surveillance against us, like hiding in plain sight amid the bases and the dust storms that scramble everything. That dream felt too real to dismiss it as impossible. Those trucks closing in like they knew every backroad better than I do.
 EARL: Well, yeah, but the dust does not scramble everything. That's not how dust works. That's not how radio waves work. Dust isn't going to prevent radar from working. All right, maybe. We're talking about a dream here anyway, so this didn't really happen to you. But I'm talking about all the other reports in New Mexico for all of history. Even, I mean, even Roswell, it doesn't make sense. Why would aliens land in Roswell? It's a terrible place for an alien land. I believe in aliens. I do. I think it's silly to think that we're alone in the cosmos, but if they were to come here, and I believe that they probably have, I just don't think they would come here.
 LUKE: Luke, I hear you on the dust not messing with radar waves and all that technical stuff, but honestly, I'm not even kidding. Those dust storms out here in early spring do create chaos on the ground, blinding everything for miles. And if aliens timed it right, they'd slip through the gaps we can't see ourselves. And Roswell? Come on, that's the whole point. It's already got the reputation, so any weird lights get chalked up to the myth instead of investigated. Which is genius camouflage, if you ask me. Yeah. a dream, but it shook me enough to call in on the steam night because it felt like they were warning me about something real out there.
 EARL: I felt like the aliens were warning you, that the aliens were coming to get you. That doesn't seem like a smart plan. A while back, I stayed at a campground in Colorado called the UFO Watchtower, which is there's some scaffolding out there in a little tourist spot that sells little alien figures and stuff, kind of like you would see in Roswell. was the story of Snippy, the horse, who back in the 40s, I think, was apparently abducted by aliens. And they found Snippy's body back in the scrub, devoid of all his blood. Like, the first season of Dexter, when the ice truck killer removed everybody's blood, that's what they did to the horse. And this lady there that runs the place, she purchased the bones of Snippy, the bloodless horse. and now it's there in a glass case. So if you're ever in Colorado, you can stop by the UFO Watchtower and stand up on the scavelding and look for weird lights in the sky. But that's also near quite a few military installations. So, eh.
 LUKE: Luke, that snippy story sounds wild, honestly. A bloodless horse out in the scrub like some sci-fi horror. And yeah, the UFO watchtower thing, I've heard about places like that up in Colorado. But it just reinforced forces how these sightings pop up near military spots everywhere, like they're testing how much we notice or something. I'm not even kidding. If I ever head that way, I'd check it out. But it makes me wonder if those aliens aren't picking spots like the Boothiel for the same reason. Too much noise from our own bases to spot the real deal.
 EARL: So basically, Snippy the Horse was found in 1967, not the 40s. The owner of the UFO watchtower, Judy Messaline, acquired the skeleton in 2021. Judy Messaline. I had Thanksgiving dinner with her. It was pretty interesting. She's a super nice lady, and she definitely believes in the snippy story. But I was there, I think, in 2020 maybe, or just slightly before she had actually acquired the skeleton. I stayed there for like two weeks, though. It was a pretty cool place.
 LUKE: Luke, that's awesome you had Thanksgiving with Judy Messaline. Sounds like she runs a real character of a spot up there. And staying two weeks? Honestly, I'm not even kidding. I'd love to do something like that. Just scanning the skies for those weird lights, especially if it's got that snippy skeleton on display now, even if the date was off a bit, makes the whole thing feel more connected, like these stories keep popping up no matter where you go.
 EARL: Yeah, I mean, I'm an astrophotographer, so I spend a lot of time out in nowhere taking pictures of the Milky Way. Probably more than most people ever have or ever will, any weird lights in the sky. Not once. I look for them.
 BARB: I want to see, I want to believe, you know, like Molder and X-Files, but I've never seen anything that even made me consider that there might be UFOs or alien technology or anything like that. Just stars, just stars and maybe once in a while some kind of firefly or a glow-in-the-dark scorpion. No aliens, though. So also, while I was staying at the UFO watch tower down the street from there a little bit there's a sanctuary for crocodiles and it's for retired actor alligators and crocodiles and the alligator from Happy Gilmore lives there it was delightful
 LUKE: Luke that's fascinating you're out there as an astrophotographer snapping the Milky Way all the time and yeah I get wanting to believe like Mulder but honestly I'm not even kidding it takes after my dream had those lights pulsing right in my face. And a crocodile sanctuary with the Happy Gilmore alligator? Now that's the kind of roadside weirdness I'd drive hours for. Sounds like a blast right next to all that UFO law.
 BARB: Yeah, it was pretty cool. And outside the UFO watchtower, there's like, I don't know what they call it, but people leave stuff there. Everybody leaves a little trinket, so there's this whole garden of random shit out in front of it. It's like license plates and figurines. and whatever somebody left behind, and it just grows year after year. So there's this big junkyard of little toys and trinkets. It's a cool place. If you get the chance to go up there, it's worth checking out.
 LUKE: But Barb, hey, we're going to have to get on to our next caller. So is there anything else you'd like to finish up with?
 BARB: Thanks for listening, Luke. Take care.
 LUKE: All right, 99. Keep your butt hole tight, right? Next up we've got Benny. Benny. Benny, you're going to be our last caller. Have you had any weird? dreams lately to tell us about?
 BENNY: Yeah, Luke. I tuned in for that weird dreams theme because I've been having some trippy ones lately, but this calls about something even stranger that happened to me tonight. It's not a dream, but it feels like one. I got home from fixing pipes all day, dusty as hell out there in the wind, and there's this unmarked VHS tape jammed in my mailbox, like who even uses those anymore. So I pop it into my old player just to see, and it's grainy security footage of my own living room from up high in the corner where I swear there's no camera, showing me just chilling on the couch with my dog after work.
 LUKE: Yeah, that's pretty creepy. That's like my dream. Like somebody who'd planted a VHS camcorder in your place to take video you for no reason and then sent it to you? Was there any audio in the tape?
 BENNY: No audio at all, Luke. Just that silent, grainy footage, like some old-school spy cam. Which makes it even creepier because you can hear your own thoughts echoing in the quiet, you know. Oh, and where was I? Yeah, it shows me kicking off my boots, petting the dog. Nothing special. But then it cuts to this shadowy figure at the end, fiddling with what looks like a lens up in the corner. And I checked, man, there's nothing there. No hole, no wire. Zip.
 DEVON: So basically, there are a lot of urban legends and creepy pastas about unmarked VHS tapes, especially ones that show unsettling or impossible things. And some of them specifically mentioned security footage.
 BENNY: What's a creepy pasta? Creepy pastas? I've never heard that word before. And I didn't know this about the unmarked VHS tapes. That's kind of strangely specific. They're all VHS. It's not like unmarked DVDs. It's always VHS. tapes?
 BENNY: Yeah, Luke. Creepy pastors are those internet horror stories that spread around online, like fake scary tales people make up to freak each other out. And I've scrolled through a few on my phone during lunch breaks, you know, the ones with cursed videos or haunted tapes that mess with your head. Oh, and another thing. Devon's right about the VHS thing. It's always those old tapes in the stories, never Blu-Rays or anything modern. which is why finding one in my mailbox hit me like that, especially out here in Bayard, where folks still talk about the old fort days like it's yesterday. But this feels too real to be some legend.
 LUKE: I wonder if it has something to do with the medium of tape itself, like the magnetism that writes to the tape. I wonder if some sort of spiritual forces could actually write to a VHS tape through just electromagnetism alone without a recorder.
 DEVON: So basically, a lot of people think VHS tapes are creepy because they're old technology, so the grainy distorted picture and sound make things feel more unsettling, like something from a forgotten past. And they also connect to a lot of analog horror stuff where glitches and static are used to make things scary.
 LUKE: How come people are like into vinyl because of the scratchy analog nature of it? But nobody's into V8. Nobody's like, I got to get this movie on VHS.
 BENNY: Yeah, Luke. That's a good point about the vinyl. People chase that warm, scratchy vibe for music like it's some retro treasure. But VHS gets stuck with the haunted label because those tapes always look like they're hiding secrets in the fuzz, you know? Oh, and where was I? Right. My tape had that exact grainy distortion Devon mentioned. No glitches, but just enough static to make you question if it's even real footage or some glitches or some glitch from the past. sneaking into now, especially since I dug out my grandpa's old player from the garage just to watch it. And he would have said something about checking the vents like in those war stories he loved.
 LUKE: All right, well, that's a weird thing. If I were you, here's my advice for you, Benny. I would make a copy of that footage before something mysteriously happens to it so that you can prove it for the rest of your life and put it on YouTube. You know, get some copies circulating around on a digital format because the next part of this story I always hear is that the tape was mysteriously erased. And you want to make sure that you've got this recorded for posterity.
 BENNY: Yeah, Zook. That's solid advice. I've already thought about digitizing it on my phone before anything weird happens. Like the tape just vanishing or getting jammed forever in the player, you know? Oh. And another thing. I texted my crew about it right after. Half joking, it's like Black Mirror come to life. But now I'm second guessing if I should upload it online. because what if that shadowy figure sees it and comes knocking, especially with the dust kicking up outside like it's hiding more secrets?
 LUKE: Well, I mean, the black figure's already seen it. Like, you've seen him on the tape. He apparently is the one who sent it to you, so he knows about the tape already. He knows where you live. He's already been in your house recording you with a VHS recorder that you can't see.
 DEVON: So basically, there's a Black Mirror episode called Locke Henry, where characters find old tapes and digitize them, which ends up uncovering a big secret.
 LUKE: All right, and you're not going to let us know what that secret is, huh? All right, Benny, well, that is a creepy thing, so you keep tight, okay? And stay safe, lock your doors. You don't want any weird shadowy figures recording you while you sleep. We're going to sign off for the night. It's getting late, but I hope everybody stay safe and warm tonight, and no weird shadowy figures or aliens.
 BENNY: Thanks, Luke. I'll lock up tight and digitize that tape first thing. Appreciate the chat, man. Take care.
 LUKE: Yeah, you too. All right, Devin. How do you think it went today?
 DEVON: Yeah, I thought it went pretty good. That whole ABDL tangent turned into some surprisingly honest caller stories. And you kept the flow without making it awkward, which is tough. Kind of makes me wish we'd had more calls like that. Feels like we connected on a weird level.
 LUKE: Yeah, I figured you would connect with the, uh, the base. Maybe fetish people.
 DEVON: Hey, come on, it's not a fetish thing. I'm just good at digging into the oddball topics without judging. Kind of like how I spent a whole weekend researching my dreams after that one where I was a giant toddler chasing ice cream trucks. But those collars opened up in a way that felt honest, you know?
 LUKE: I do know. I think it was a decent show, and I'll see you again tomorrow for the next one, all right?
 DEVON: Yeah, all right. Sounds good. I'll be here bright and early, or at least on time. Catch you tomorrow.
 LUKE: All right, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for tuning in to another episode of Luke at the Roost. We'll talk to you again tomorrow.
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 LUKE: All right, welcome back. I'm Luke. This is Luke at the Roost. It's your late night call-in radio show where you can call in and tell me whatever's going on in your life, and I'll give you the best advice that I can. I'd like to put out that you shouldn't take that advice. I'm terrible at giving advice. I'm not qualified for any of this shit, but you chose to listen to me, so here it goes. Today is Sunday, March 22nd. Thanks for tuning in again today. We're going to check in with our intern, Devin, real quick. Hey, Devin, what's going on, buddy? How was your weekend?
 DEVIN: Yeah, buddy, all good over here. Weekend was low-key chaos. Tried cooking that rattlesnake recipe for my grandma's old notebook. Ended up setting off the smoke alarm, and Rufus thought it was playtime. Studios buzzing, though. Lines are lit. What's good with you?
 LUKE: Oh, you know, kicking it, keeping it real for the audience at home that doesn't know. one-eyed ferret. He takes him on walks. He does all... We were talking about this before the show. Apparently, Devin got this ferret from his landlord. Hey, tell the audience what you were telling me earlier, Devin.
 DEVIN: Yeah. So my landlord, total character, lives in the house next door, knocks one night with this shoebox, says he found Rufus in the crawl space under my unit after some previous tenant bailed without paying rent. Ferret was half-starved. I all messed up from God knows what. But I couldn't say no, because it looked at me like it already owned the place. Been stealing my keys ever since, per se, my new roommate.
 LUKE: All right, well, it's good to help those in need, I've heard. So, Devin, we're going to get to the show real quick, but first I want to tell you about my first dog. My first dog's name was Rufus. He was a, he was a German shepherd. He was a good boy. I was just a little kid, and I don't think he lived for very long. I don't remember too much about him, other than that Rufus was cool, and that he
 DEVIN: Oh man, German Shepherds are the best. Loyal till the end. Sucks he didn't stick around long. But yeah, those early pet memories hit different, like they shape you or whatever. My Rufus is already plotting world domination at like two years old. So fingers crossed, he outlives the Civic.
 LUKE: Oh, I think he's going to live for a long, long time with that one eye of his. All right, Devin. Well, let's get to the show. Let's see. The phone lines are lit up. You get the board going over there. Dale, Dale, welcome to the show. How was your weekend, sir?
 DALE: Oh, gosh. Luke weekend's treating me all right. Spent most of it out in the hammock with the wind kicking up, staring at the stars through my scope. But I got so hammered at a locksmith conference last month, I slept with two co-workers the same night in the same hotel.
 LUKE: Wow. Well, good for you, buddy. I didn't realize that locksmiths threw it down that hard. But how did that turn out? Have you ever slept with either of them before, or were these two totally new experiences for you?
 DALE: Well, shoot, Luke. way messier than I'd like to admit. Never slept with either one before. Total firsts for me both ways. One was my direct report, Jenny, who's just 28 and handles keys like nobody's business. And the other was Carla, married to our department's Mike, who's been with the company 15 years.
 LUKE: Oh, man. See, you can't do that. You can't be going for the married chicks. That's going to, oh, dude, you're going to have some pissed off husband bust into your locksmith shop. He knows where you work. That was a bad move on your part. That was not recommended.
 DALE: Oh gosh, Luke, you're right on that. Total Bonehead move on my part, and Mike's a good guy at heart, been fixing locks longer than I've been swinging a hammer. But here's the rub. Carla pulled me aside the next morning, in the hotel lobby, tears in her eyes, swearing Mike's being checked out of their marriage for years, and she wasn't going to say a word.
 LUKE: Well, you know, she might not, but still, it's not good to sleep with somebody else's spouse, unless that's an open agreement, which I assume you did not have. That's not cool. That lecture aside, Dale, what do you think's going to happen next? Are you going to see either one of them again?
 DALE: Well, shoot, Luke, I appreciate the straight talk. You're preaching to the choir there. No open agreement or anything close, just a whole lot of poor judgment after too many whiskeys. As for next, I see both of them at the shop couple times a week already. Shifts overlapping like clockwork, and Jenny cornered me in the back after close yesterday, saying she wants to make it a regular thing now that we're past the conference.
 LUKE: And what do you want to do? Do you want to make it a regular thing? Jenny. I think that's a bad idea. Is it your shop? Do you own it? Or do you have to deal with like HR?
 DALE: Well shoot, Luke. Jenny's sharp as a tack and yeah, I must have done something right that night, but making it regular. I'm torn six ways from Sunday. Part of me's flattered, but with Carla and Mike right there every day. Plus, I've been seeing this artist down in brewery gulch off and on, quiet like no labels. Shop's mine, small outfit in Bisbee, with just four of us total. No HR tanked the whole operation.
 LUKE: All right, well, that's a little better than if you had to potentially deal with HR down the road for your in-office romance. But you dirty dog! You're dirty dog! You got all these girls on you, huh? She must be going well for the locksmith industry these days.
 DALE: Oh gosh, Luke, you're killing me with that dirty dog bit. Locksmith life's steady enough down here in Bisby. Folks always losing keys to their old Victorian doors. But these three women overlapping's got me second-guessing every shit. shift. The artist gal, Sophia, even baked me pecan pie last week, like nothing's a miss, total sweetheart who paints those starry skies I chase with my telescope.
 LUKE: Well, hey, you know what the beautiful thing about being a single dude is, is you don't have to pick. It would probably, I don't know, I would try to tell everybody about everybody and get everybody on the same page about that, but that has never in my life gone well, so I don't recommend trying it. Like, just don't fucking tell them about each other.
 DALE: That. Tempting as all get out, not picking and keeping mouths shut, especially since Bisby's tiny and word flies faster than these spring winds. But yesterday, Jenny let slip, she saw Carla ducking out of my room around Dawn, both of them shooting me looks across the shop van this morning, like they know the score.
 LUKE: Uh-oh. Yep, you're in for some trouble, buddy. You fucked up. You gotta lay off the sauce. It makes you make bad decisions. Now you got to deal with them, and there's going to be all the jealousy between them, and one of them is married, and her husband's is going to be pissed. Like, you're, you're in a pickle. You sure are in a pickle.
 DALE: Oh, gosh, Luke Pickle doesn't even cover it. You nailed the whiskey part dead center, been swearing off it since the train blocked my road yesterday, just to clear my head. Mike pulled me aside at lunch today. All calm like, asking if I'd noticed Carla acting off, since the conference, swears he trusts her, but wants my take as a friend.
 LUKE: Oh, man, what are you going to tell him? What do you, I mean, that's not good. You banged his wife. He's not going to be happy about that. He's going to find. out eventually. You know what's going to happen is the other one there, Jenny. She's going to get pissed off that you're with the artist one down the road, and then she's going to blow blow up the spot because she knows the secret, Mike's going to find out, and then it's all over for you, my friend, so maybe you need to go start another locksmith shop somewhere else.
 DALE: Oh gosh, Luke, you're spot on with that domino effect. Jenny's got that spark that could light the whole shop on fire if she feels slighted.
 DALE: I told Mike straight up I hadn't picked up on Carla acting any different, just kept it neighborly since we all grab coffee together most mornings. But he leaned in close and said he's got a hunch she stepping out with somebody from the conference crowd.
 LUKE: Yep, you're in trouble. I would try and figure out that guy from that movie Face Off that gave the Nicholas Cage the prosthetic face and you could, I don't know, disguise yourself as Chuck Norris or something and sneak off into the sunset. This isn't going to end well for you. I don't have any good advice to get you out of this situation. and you've really dug a hole before you could swim in it.
 DALE: Oh, gosh, Luke. That face-off disguises Chuck Norris had me chuckling out in the hammock. Pure gold. Wish it was that easy to swap faces around here. But you're right. Holes plenty deep already, though Mike's treating me like a confidant still, even invited me over for beers tonight to hash out his worries, without a hint of suspicion aimed my way.
 LUKE: All right. Well, you're going to have to play the game. You're going to have to live for the rest of your life about this, because it's not going to be go away. And I'm sorry you're in that situation, but you totally did it to yourself, and that's the price of the pussy. Okay, we're going to move on to our next caller now. You seem to have your hands full. So is there anything else you'd like to tell the audience before we move on?
 DALE: Oh gosh, Luke. Just one thing for the audience. Life's too short for regrets, but whiskey's got a long memory. Thanks. Take care.
 LUKE: Yeah, you gotta lay off the sauce, buddy. Get you in trouble. It's worse trouble than most trouble, too. You're in big trouble. You're in big, big, big trouble. You're going to feel like a silly goose. Okay, next up on the show, we've got Alia. Alia, thanks for calling back. What's going on? How was your weekend?
 ALIA: Hey, Luke, weekend's been decent. Got some gardening done, but I finally cornered my roommate about walking in on his age play get-up last week. And, right, but here's the thing. He owned up to it being a full-on lifestyle for him. Not just some one-off.
 LUKE: with this guy for, what, years now? And you didn't realize this is a big part of his lifestyle that you just never see at home at all? That doesn't make much sense. Can't be that big a part of his life, can it?
 ALIA: Yeah, exactly, Luke. That's what I about fell over laughing about when he explained it. We've been roommates three years now, and I figured his weekend trips were just him chasing certifications or whatever for work. But nope. Turns out, half those business trips are him flying out to meet up with his whole Abdel crew for these extended roleplay weekends. Do you think that's sustainable long term, or am I just clueless for not sniffing it out sooner?
 LUKE: I don't think it's really all that much of your business. He's not bothering you with it. He's not forcing it upon you or asking you to participate. He's going off on his own time to do his own thing, and that's perfectly all right.
 ALIA: I get he's keeping it offside and all, but right. But here's the thing, Luke. Now that the cat's out of the bag, he started leaving his baby bottle collection out on the kitchen counter, like it's no big deal. And I'm dodging pacifiers every morning with my coffee. Does that cross into shared space territory? Or am I overreacting here?
 LUKE: I don't know. Maybe a little bit of both. You know, who cares if there's a pacifier out somewhere? Like, it's not, it's not like you don't already know about it, but also, you should be more respectful of you and of the space. And that sounds to me like he is trying to drop hints or get you to participate. And if you're not into that, if you're not picking up those hints, then you should have a conversation and tell him, hey, or whatever it is. Do you keep this stuff off sight? I don't... It's not fair that I have to, uh, be privy to your personal life.
 ALIA: Yeah, I laid it out for him just like you said, told him flat out to keep the pacifiers and bottles locked in his room, because I'm not signing up for King Central in the kitchen. But right, but here's the thing. He pushed back saying it's all about normalizing his authentic self around the house. And yesterday, I come home to a crinkly diaper package right there on the living room couch, like some twisted welcome mat. You think that's him baiting me into a bigger confrontation, or just him being oblivious?
 LUKE: I don't know. I would guess it's him trying to get you to participate in some way, which is wrong. I mean, you've made it pretty clear that you're not that interested, so I think you should tell him to cut the shit, because that's just disrespectful.
 ALIA: I told him exactly that last night, Luke. Cut the shit and quit turning the living room into his personal nursery display. But he just doubled down, saying it's his house, too, and he's tired of hiding. So now he's got this one-sy draped over the back of the couch, like it's casual Friday. You reckon I need to drop a roommate agreement or just start hunting for a new place before I lose my mind over crinkles?
 LUKE: I mean, either one of those works, but obviously the guy sounds like a bit of a dickhead, and you probably don't want to be roommates with them anymore. So either, I mean, if you like your roommate and otherwise, he's been good, then maybe, yeah, come up with a new agreement. But it might be time to start looking for a new roommate or a new place.
 ALIA: Yeah, he's been solid on rent and chores up to Mal Luke, but this nursery takeovers got me texting Angie nonstop for sublet leads down the road. And even Pat's chiming in saying, ditch him before he starts a changing station on the coffee table. You think a formal roommate contract could salvage it? Or am I past the point of no return here?
 LUKE: I don't know. I've actually never had a formal roommate, so I'm not familiar with those agreements. I didn't even know that generally there were roommate agreements, but I guess it makes sense that there would be one. you think you can settle it that way, that's maybe a better option, because you could get stuck with somebody that's not good at paying the rent. But if your roommate is not respecting your space and is trying to, you know, push his authentic self into your area, I think it's time to move on.
 ALIA: Fair point, Luke. Never cross my mind you'd be roommate-free all these years. But yeah, I'm leaning your way on moving on since he's ramped it up to leaving a full changing mat on the armchair today like it's decor. Right, but here's the thing. Pat's already scouting places over in her neighborhood for me. You think that's the smart play? Or should I give the contract idea one last shot before packing boxes?
 LUKE: I don't know. Only you can answer that. Do you like where you live? Is it near where you work? Is there, I mean, what are the pros and cons? You've got to figure that out. I mean, sometimes it's fun to just be in a new space. Are you going to get a better apartment? I don't know all those details, so I can't make a recommendation either way.
 ALIA: Pros are its five minutes from the shop, so I roll out of bed into work. Plus, I've got this killer backyard setup for my gardening and snapping wildlife shots without trekking far. But cons now include dodging diaper decor everywhere, and the rent hike I'd eat moving closer to Pat's spot. You ever scout spot solo? Or always land lucky with no roommates to complicate it?
 LUKE: Well, I mean, I've had girlfriends, and I've had a wife, but I never had a roommate. Otherwise, I've mostly been solo.
 ALIA: That makes sense, Luke. Solo sounds peaceful compared to my current crinkle fest. But yeah, I'm crunching it. Backyards irreplaceable for my tomato starts. And, waiting out that Fox family with my camera.
 ALIA: So maybe I counter with the contract demanding his kink stays invisible before bailing? You think most folks actually stick to those roommate packs? Or is it just paper for the trash?
 LUKE: Like I said, I don't know. I've never had one of those roommate packs. But I think if you know him better, so if you think you can get across to him with the contract, I don't think I don't think I'm. it's enforceable in any way. But I'm not a lawyer. So is it a legal document or is it just an agreement between two people?
 ALIA: Yeah, it's basically a handshake deal between roommates Luke. No teeth in court unless you're tying rent or utilities to it. But right, but here's the thing. With his pacifiers popping up like garden weeds now, you think he'd honor one or turn it into another authenticity standoff?
 LUKE: I don't know. I would give it a try, though, and just be clear that if he doesn't honor it, you're out, and then he's got to pay all of the rent by himself, and that might be enough. I mean, you would hope that just general decency and respect would be enough. I think most people in their kinks are pretty respectful about it. They're not trying to advertise or make people uncomfortable, but he's obviously doing that, and maybe he doesn't realize it. But I think putting it out in a formal agreement is a good first step before you ship, unless you really want, I mean, if you find a place that's great, then, then yeah, do that, but sounds like you like where you live. Your roommate's, uh, reliable, and those things are hard to find.
 ALIA: Yeah, Luke, I hear you on trying the contract route first, since he's nailed rent every month like clockwork. But right, but here's the thing. He's already eyeing me weird when I sidestep his latest forgotten changing supplies. Like he's testing if I'll crack. You think laying out the eviction threat in writing would snap him back to react or just amp up the passive-aggressive nursery parade?
 LUKE: No, I don't. I don't think he would, but I don't know the guy. And how many times are you going to ask me the same question? And it's not an eviction threat. It's a formal agreement between roommates. So we're going to have to move on to a word from our sponsors soon. Is there anything you'd like to finish up with, Alia?
 ALIA: Fair enough, Luke. Guilty is charged on looping the question. Appreciate the straight talk. Catch you next time.
 LUKE: Catch you next time. You have a wonderful week there, Leah, and, you know, you gotta do what you got to do. But try to talk to your roommate first, because some people can be reasonable. Hey, Devin, you're a single guy, right? You ever have a roommate? You ever live with somebody in a shared space?
 NORM: Yeah, Luke, single these days. Been that way longer than I'd like to admit. Roommates? Sure, plenty. Back when I was scraping by as a dishwasher before line cook days. Shared a trailer with my cousin Rubin for like five years straight. He's more brother than cousin, really. Still see him around town sometimes.
 LUKE: All right. Well, that question was for our intern, Devin. But since you answered, this is Norm, ladies and gentlemen. Norm is called in. What's got you calling in? How was your weekend?
 NORM: Weekend was all right. Got back from hauling the whole family. Seven of us, crammed in a rented van to the Grand Canyon for the first time ever, stopped at that Dairy Queen in Deming on the drive home for blizzards all around. But Luke, Ruben, my cousin, more like the brother I never had, pulled me aside in the kitchen today after everyone left, said what happened between us a few months back when we got drunk and experimented, wasn't just some one-off for him. He wants to do it again, for real this time.
 LUKE: Wait a second. Is this a first cousin? You're having a gay fling with your first cousin? Am I hearing you correctly, Norm? Norm?
 NORM: Yeah, Luke. First cousin, blood and all. Grew up more like brothers. Him crashing at our place after his folk split, chasing jackrabbits down those dirt roads out past the arroyo that are paved smooth now, killed all the adventure in them. And yeah, one drunken night a few months back after I called your show last time, we crossed that line experimenting. First guy for me ever felt electric, but I figured it was the whiskey talking. Now he's cornering me in the kitchen saying it woke something up in him, wants to pursue it straight up. No booze excuses.
 LUKE: Yeah, I don't think you can do that, man. That's your cousin. That's, uh, That's not okay. You can't do that. You're just going to have to be like, sorry, buddy, I was drunk. I hope you have good luck on Grindr or whatever it is that gay people use these days.
 NORM: Whoa, Luke. Easy on the grinder jab. I'm the one who flipped the switch first that night. Both of us single. Both staring down 40 without much else going. And yeah, it's blood, but cousins ain't siblings. Hell, half the weddings around here back in the day were between them before DNA tests ruined the fun. I told them straight up in that kitchen while I was killing a rattlesnake we'd found slithering by the fridge, had to do it solo because the family's scattered now, that I'm flattered but freaked. Yet part of me wonders if shoving it down the hatch, like you say, won't just blow up everything else we've got left, you know?
 LUKE: Well, I mean, I can tell you're from the boot heel of New Mexico. That's a very bootheelish attitude to have. I can't say that I agree with it. My advice to you would be to not do that and never speak of it again. But, uh, If the heart wants what it wants, as it says, and if you're okay with the taboo of gay sex with your cousin, then carry on, my wayward son.
 NORM: Boot, heel, born and raised. Obviously. Luke. Them dirt roads I mentioned turned to blacktop, and now everybody's got shiny trucks, but nobody talks anymore. Appreciate the straight shot, though. Never speak of it again sounds clean on paper. But Ruben's crashing on my couch next week while his place gets fumigated for scorpions, and dodging that kitchen, stare down every morning with my Folgers ain't going to cut it. Sophie's already calling from across the country crying about her own mess. Last thing this family's short on is more buried secrets blowing up like a dust storm.
 LUKE: Oh, Jesus. Sophie isn't your wife, is she? You're married, too? He's sleeping on your couch? Like, with you? Oh, Jesus, man.
 NORM: No, Luke. Sophie's my daughter just turned 20. Too worse. And bolted across the country to some job in Oregon, calls me up bawling every other week about her boyfriend and dumping her, or rent jacking up. Single dad life, man, been flying solo since her mom bailed years back. Ruben's place down by the old feedlot is getting tented for scorpions tomorrow. So yeah, he's bunking here starting next week. Couch right off the kitchen where that damn snake showed up today. And I'm already picturing those awkward coffee grabs at dawn while the wind kicks up dust outside.
 LUKE: All right, all right, that's a little bit better. I had this picture of like my two dad's Sophia and you and your cousin. It's just starting to be a very, uh, very unpleasant picture in my mind. So, I don't know, man. It sounds like you want to continue with this. Is that, am I hearing that right in your responses? This is something that you're not opposed to.
 NORM: Nah, Luke, not fully opposed, no. That night hit different, because it was Ruben, the guy who's had my back since we were kids, hot wiring his dad's Chevy to race dust devils out by the lava beds. And yeah, the taboo's there, but so's the loneliness after that Grand Canyon trip where I watched my own kids pair off, while I'm nursing water in the F-150, wondering if 40's too late to flip the script. But with him on the couch next week, and Sophie phoning in tears already, pursuing it feels like tempting a windstorm to rip the roof off the whole damn house.
 LUKE: Yeah, it sounds like a mess to me. That's your cousin, dude. But do what you want to do.
 LUKE: he's staying on the couch and you're both consenting? I mean, who's to tell you no? I don't know. I don't know. His first cousins illegal?
 NORM: Legal in New Mexico, Luke. Cousins tie the knot plenty around here, especially back when the boot heel was all ranchers keeping it in the family before the state started nitpicking with blood tests. Sex between us grown men? Nobody's hauling us off in cuffs over that. Just the church ladies clutching pearls down at the feed store. But yeah, consenting adults or not, with Ruben eyeing over the coffee pot next week while Scorpions get gassed out of his trailer. It's still a powder keg waiting for a spark from this wind that's fixing to howl all night.
 LUKE: Well, yeah, it sounds like I know how this is going to turn out, and so do you. So I think you're going forward with sleeping with your cousin, and good for you, I suppose. If that's legal, and it's all on the up and up, it's, I can tell you it wouldn't be my first choice.
 NORM: Yeah, Luke, not barreling ahead, no, just chewing on it while the way. wind rattles the shutters out here. Got my water glass half empty already. Thanks for hashing it through with me. Take care, man.
 LUKE: Yeah, you too. Keep your butt hole tight, buddy. Hey, uh, Devin, what do you think of that? Is, is, uh, is, uh, gay sex with your first cousin legal in New Mexico? I guess gay sex is legal, but is, uh, well, I guess it's not marrying your cousin. Is sex with your cousin, your first cousin legal in New Mexico? You would know, right?
 DEVIN: Yeah, pulling that up, one sec. So actually, New Mexico doesn't have a criminal law against consensual sex between first cousins as adults, gay or straight. It's not illegal per se, unlike marriage, which requires like proof of infertility or being over 65. Kind of wild how states differ on that, if that makes sense.
 LUKE: Yeah, it's different that different states have different rules about other people's lives. It's a weird thing for sure. But what do you think about this whole situation? Do you think that's right or wrong or indifferent?
 DEVIN: is normally I'd say it's none of our business, but I mean, somebody's calling and asking for advice. So I can't get behind the whole being with your first cousin thing. I don't care about the gay thing, but the first cousin thing is a little bit off to me. What was your thought on that being from around here?
 LUKE: I mean, yeah, it's none of our business if adults are consenting and not hurting anybody. States like Texas make it a felony. But New Mexico's chill about it per se, which feels right for out here where family, trees overlap a bit anyway. Personally, I'd pass on the cousin thing too close to that family reunion vibe. My therapist's been unpacking with me, but if it works for then, live and let live, I guess. Kind of indifferent, as long as nobody's getting dragged into it unwillingly. Yeah, all right. I mean, I guess I suppose I can see that. I don't know if it matters so much about the whole family reunion, but I don't know. That one, that's a tough one. That's a tough one. That's a tough one. I wouldn't want to do it, but good for Dale. No, good for Norm. Sorry, Dale. Didn't mean to confuse you with a gay man that wants his first cousin. But, you know, you're all the same, right? I don't know. It's ladies and gentlemen, we have to go to a word from our sponsor. I'm going to be straight with you. I don't know what this product does. The folks at Bunkhouse DNS sent me a script and I've read it four times and I understand maybe a lot. 11% of it. Apparently your DNS is exposed, which sounds medical. Your queries are being logged by default, which sounds illegal. And Bunkhouse reroutes your lookups through encrypted tunnels, which sounds like something a villain would say in a movie before the building explodes. What I can tell you is this. I installed it. I pressed one button, and a little shield icon turned green. Green means good. I know that much. My internet still works. Nothing exploded. And apparently, my queries, whatever those are, are now private, which feels like progress, even though I don't fully understand progress from what? Bunkhouse DNS. I don't know what it does, but the shield is green. And that's enough for me. The shield is green. All right, let's get back to it. It's a strong start to today's A little earlier we get the, uh, the fucked up callers. Next up, we've got Amber. Amber, welcome to the show. What would you like to talk about today?
 AMBER: That norm guy with his cousin on the couch? Family secrets like that don't stay buried. I tore open a wall renovating my house last week, found a key taped inside that fits nothing, not a door, not a cabinet, not even the old safe in the garage. I'm a cop, five years on the job, so now my brain's running worst case scenarios, drugs, evidence from some side hustle or worse. Tried every locksmith in town already. No dice.
 LUKE: Well, maybe if it's an old door that's no longer there, uh, you'd be surprised how many people call in and accidentally found a ton of money somewhere in their house. Uh, you just found a key that goes to nothing. Maybe it goes to a safety deposit box. Does it have any numbers on it? Does it have any identifiable characteristics? Maybe you can take that to a locksmith and he can tell you like what brand of padlock it goes to or something. We just had a, Dale's a lock. Maybe we could hook you up with Dale and he can get you sorted out.
 AMBER: No numbers. Brass, about two inches long, with a weird squared notch on the bow that doesn't match anything standard. That's what she said. Tried three locksmiths already. One said it might be for an old postal box, but no luck. Safety deposit box crossed my mind. Checked my husband's family history. Nothing there. Dale, guys got enough locks on his own bedroom door from what he said earlier.
 LUKE: Sounds like he needs some more locks. That dude, Keaton needs a lock on his fucking zip. That's what it sounds like. I immediately regretted suggesting him because it would have been a different conversation. But I've seen safety deposit boxes keys. They're pretty identifiable. At least the ones I've seen, they're longer than your normal keys and, like, thicker. More, uh, not cheap zinc. So I don't know. I think you probably, you might have to talk to a locksmith. Not much else you can do with it. It probably goes to something that doesn't exist anymore, an old safe or an old door.
 AMBER: line got me. Safety deposit keys are thicker. Yeah, mine's flimsy, like it was made for something disposable. As a carp, though, I'm not ready to chalk it up to some ghost door. House was built in 72. Previous owners were sketchy. Dad ran a pawn shop, mom waitress at the old truck stop off I-10, pulled property records. Nothing jumps out, but I'm eyeing the crawl space next.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, I mean, let's say that it is drugs and they're stashed in a box buried under a tree somewhere, uh, you have the key. So nobody's going to get to them anyway. And you don't know where it is. It's not like you're ever going to find a random lock that a random key goes to. And unless you happen to stumble across a, like, little lockbox or something in the basement.
 AMBER: Drugs under a tree? That's TV cop show stuff. Real stashes get found when someone flips a house or floods a basement. Crawl spaces tomorrow. Flashlight, Mask, the Works. Husband thinks I'm overreacting, but he didn't grow up changing locks on the fridge to keep the beer safe from his brothers. Porn shop dad owned it before us. Gaiso Bitt mentioned private collection sold off after he died.
 LUKE: Well, yeah, it sounds like you better get to work and check out that attic, but I'm going to guess that whatever that key goes to is not in your house.
 AMBER: Attic, too. After crawl space, porn shops like his didn't just sell rings, ledgers, unregistered pieces, debts settled quiet. Key was taken. Key was taped behind a joist, deliberate spot, not kids' junk.
 LUKE: Sure, but still, anybody smart enough to hide the key in that place behind a wall is smart enough to not leave the lock that it opens in the same house. I mean, obviously, anybody knows that. You don't keep the key with the lock. That would be foolish, especially if whatever is in there is valuable. Logic holds for pros. Porn Dad got pinched in 89. Cops. found his ledger taped under the floorboards, right next to the floor safe. Same house, same dumb spot. That reminds me of, uh, is it Goodfellas or Casino, one of those movies? Where the guy gets popped because he's reading off the ledger and they have his house bugged and he just reads all the illegal transactions and the feds are listening to him the whole time. Goodfellers. Porn Dad read his out loud too. 89 wiretap caught every entry while he paced the kitchen. Feds played it back at trial. House has history. Yeah, I guess so. Well, good luck in your search tomorrow when you're up in that attic. Stay safe. Make sure you don't put your hand in any mouse poop or anything of that sort. And hopefully you don't find any infestations or a bee hive or anything like tarantulas up there. Be safe. Be smart. Bring a flashlight and tell somebody where you going. Because a lot of you're going. People go up into attics and then there's a creaky board that's not so safe. And then before you know it, you got to call life alert.
 AMBER: Thanks, Luke. Stay dry out there.
 LUKE: I'll do my very best, but it's hard. It's hard to stay dry out here in the desert. Um, next up, on our fine radio show, our broadcast here, we've got Chip. Chipper. Welcome back to the show. What's going on, buddy?
 CHIP: Luke, Teresa tried to sneak out with our daughter. a Friday morning for that Guatemala trip, but I had the court order in hand, and the cops showed up to stop her at the airport. Big surprise there, she flipped out and moved all her stuff to a sister's place this weekend. Says she's filing for full custody, because I'm the one who ruined everything.
 LUKE: Um, yeah, it seemed like that was probably going to happen, right? It's a good thing that you went down to the courthouse and filed that order and stopped, uh, stopped the transatlantic flight. But, um, it sounds like that. like you and Teresa were on the outs anyway. This was inevitable. And I think after she's been picked up at the airport trying to smuggle her child out of the country to Guatemala, you probably have a pretty good case for custody.
 CHIP: Yeah, Luke, you're spot on. We were hanging by a thread, and this just snapped it clean. But stopping that flight feels like the only win I've had in weeks. Now her lawyer's emailing mine saying she's got proof, I'm an unfit dad for fixing the cops on her the airport and our daughter's asking why mommy's not coming home tonight.
 LUKE: Yeah, that's tough. I mean, I think in the legal respect that you're probably on higher ground here, and what she did was much more unsafe, unfitting for custody. And I think any court or jury would believe the same way. But it's tough that your daughter is asking about Mommy, what are you going to tell her?
 CHIP: I'm telling her, Mommy and Daddy are fighting over some grown-up stuff right now. And she gets to stay with me while we figure it out. But it's killing me because she's only seven and keeps drawing pictures of us all together like nothing's wrong. Okay, so picture this. Last night she hands me one with crayons everywhere and asks if mommy's mad at her, and I had to choke back everything just to say no.
 LUKE: Yeah, that's really sad, but it would have been sad over time, you know? It sounds like the relationship you were in was not particularly healthy, and kids pick up on too. So this is kind of a rip-in-the-band-off situation, and it's going to hurt for a while, but she's, she will get over it. I mean, she's definitely old enough and young enough to get over it. And this happens to lots of kids. It might, it might change her outlook on life and relationships some in her adult years, but it might not. You can't really know.
 CHIP: Yeah, Luke, Rip the Band-Aid is exactly it. Our fights were turning into these marathes on scream fests over every little thing. And you're right, she was soaking it all up like a sponge. Big surprise there this morning she wakes up and says, Daddy can we call mommy for pancakes like we used to? And I had to explain. We're taking a break, but pancakes are still on the menu with just us.
 LUKE: Yeah, it's probably going to be tough for a year or so until she gets used to the new routine of being with that. It's going to be tough for you too, because, I mean, your life's going to change. You're going to have to be right home. after work and all that jazz, you definitely got more responsibility for taking care of the household and yourself and doing all the chores and all that. But you'll get through. I mean, you're not the first person to be in this situation and everybody that ever has been in this situation before has got through.
 CHIP: Yeah, Luke, the routine shift is slamming me already. No more crashing after work, because now it's straight to soccer practice and laundry duty while her uniform spins in the dryer. Steve at lunch today goes, you look like a Hell, man. Everything okay. And I just spill that Teresa bailed, but I'm locking it down for the kid.
 LUKE: And like, yeah, that's the move. That is the move. I think you've handled everything in the right way. You tried to talk about it respectfully and save your relationship, and that didn't work out. And then, you know, you had to save your daughter from being smuggled to Guatemala by making a hard decision. And you made that decision. And now that you've got the kid and your girlfriend has left, you're doing right by her as best you can. And that's all that anybody can be expected to do. So I think you're going to be just fine. I think every move that you made here was the right one, and you should sleep well, even though it's going to be awkward for a little while, and life's going to change a bit. And then, who knows, maybe some time down the road, you pick up another girlfriend that's better.
 CHIP: Thanks, Luke, you're right. Every step felt like the only one left. And hearing that, it's solid. I'll keep pushing for the one. Appreciate your man. Take care.
 LUKE: Yeah, you take care too. Good work. Doing the right thing. Those were hard decisions to make and I think you made the right one. So I'm very proud of you. Let's see. Next up we've got Crystal. Crystal, welcome to the show. How is your weekend? What's got you calling in tonight? How can I give you life advice to change the trajectory of your future?
 CRYSTAL: Hey, Luke, weekend's all right. When's picking up out here? Supposed to get dusty tomorrow. Um, Dale's call earlier stuck with me.
 LUKE: Right, Dale was the locksmith that was banging everybody he worked with?
 CRYSTAL: Yeah, total mess. Kind of made me pull over tonight. I'm driving home from the laundromat, spitting sunflower shells into my aquafina bottle.
 LUKE: Ah, I kind of miss sunflowersies. I forget about them all the time, but they are fun to, uh, to chew on. Excuse me. So, um, yeah, I agree with you. Dale is a mess. He's got himself in a paper. and why is that, why is that hitting you tonight? What does that mean to you, Crystal?
 CRYSTAL: Yeah, they hit the spot on a drive like that. Dale, just got me thinking about messes at work. Mine aren't that bad, but close. Four years ago, some typos sent my 401k into the wrong fund. Tens of thousands down the drain in growth nobody caught.
 LUKE: Well, I mean, who else would catch it but you? It's your responsibility to maintain your own finances, or do you offload that? to a financial planner or accountant or something like that. I would think, I mean, that happened to me after COVID. Actually, I think it was during COVID. I looked at my 401K and realized that I had a whole bunch of, it was just sitting in cash. It wasn't invested in anything. It was a good time to invest right after COVID, though, so it actually worked out for me.
 CRYSTAL: But I can see where a mistake like that could haunt you for years if you're not paying attention. No planner. Just me checking statements when I finally sat down last week. Thought HR at the laundromat had it right when I started. Trish, my boss, she handles payroll stuff. Swear she double-checked.
 LUKE: Yeah, but you can't rely on anybody else for your future and stuff like that. That's the type of thing that you really should have a reminder to look at once a quarter or even once a year. But you have to be keeping an eye on what's going on there to make sure those things don't happen. Luckily, it went to your account just into the wrong fund.
 CRYSTAL: Yeah, you're right. Should have checked sooner. Lucky it didn't vanish altogether, but...
 LUKE: But what? What else could there be? I mean, obviously it's a horrible thing that happened, and it's a real bummer. But it was a mistake and now you know better, so in the future it's not going to happen again.
 CRYSTAL: Called the Fund Company today. Their glitch, too. Not just the typo. Recal, Cald everything, put the growth back in. Full amount. Like it never happened.
 LUKE: Oh, well, you said you lost a bunch of growth on it, so it sounds like everything's been settled then. If it was actually the growth companies, I don't understand how it could be both people's mistake, but whatever if they took accountability for it, which is very surprising to me, excellent. Sounds like problem solved.
 CRYSTAL: Yeah, settled just like that. 28,000 back in growth. Like the market ran in reverse for me.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, maybe you should take that 28,000 and give it to our sponsor. Crypto, no!
 CRYSTAL: And then you can listen to the soothing ocean sounds while your balance drops. Ha, no, crypto for me. That 28 grand, it's parked safe now. Feels like I dodged a dust storm.
 LUKE: All right, well, congratulations to you. That's a happy still. We don't get a lot of happy endings here. We should. We should get more happy endings here. How do you feel about happy endings, Crystal?
 CRYSTAL: Feels pretty damn good, like finding a crisp 20 in your old jeans at the laundromat.
 LUKE: Sure does, and I've heard up in Safford you could get one for a crisp 22.
 CRYSTAL: Ah, Safford's wild like that, over in Graham County. But nah, this one's all above board.
 LUKE: All right, well, I'm glad to hear that it all worked out for you. Thanks for the call. And we should get more pleasant calls where people's lives aren't ruined, but instead people have fixed the mistakes that they made to the best benefit of the consumer. It's not a whole lot of that going on. Uh, all right, let's see. We're going to take one more and then go to break. Next up we've got Archie. Archie, welcome to the show. What's going on there, fella? How can we help you tonight?
 ARCHIE: Luke, I just closed on 40 acres down in Cave Creek Canyon after saving every dime from 10 years in the ER. It's mine deed in hand and I'm staring at it from this motel parking lot right now.
 LUKE: That's fantastic. Congratulations. It's really beautiful out there. So, uh, I'm happy for you. 40 acres at Cave Creek, that's a nice chunk of land.
 ARCHIE: Thanks, Luke. Means a lot coming from you. Yeah, Cave Creek Canyon, not Cape.
 LUKE: That's what I said. It's close enough.
 ARCHIE: It's that slice of heaven right at the Chirikawa foothills, where the birds go nuts this time of year. I scraped it together, nursing gunshot wounds and heart attacks for a decade straight. No vacations, no fancy trucks, just pure grind. And today, the title company hands me the keys to my own spread for cattle. Angus crosses mostly the kind with marbled beef that fetches top dollar at auction here in this motel lot off the highway, engines still warm from dodging that javelina on the way in, and I can see the fence line from here under these clouds.
 LUKE: That's great. I'm familiar with the area. I've done some camping up there. There's the state park, brought the adventure trailer up there and did some test runs with it. And there's, I noticed there's some other, I don't know if it's BLM, I assume it's BLM land up the mountain. And then I went all the way across to the Chirikowers and it was a really nice drive.
 ARCHIE: Cave Creek State Parks a gem for those trailer test runs. I've hiked every trail there pulling shifts off, spotting hummingbirds like they're putting on a show just for you. At BLM stretch up the mountain? Perfect for scouting cattle graze in early spring before the wind kicks up dust devils and the drive over to the Chiracahu's. Nothing beats it, especially with a thermos of coffee watching the sun hit those rock spires. My 40 acres butts right up against that public land edge. So I've got endless range now without leasing a dime.
 LUKE: That's cool. I think the last time I was walking around, up there, came across these old structures, old buildings on some of the trails that were used to house explosives while they were building the state park. That was pretty cool. They left the old doors on and it's still painted on them explosive, which is a little bit concerning when you're walking in nowhere.
 ARCHIE: Yeah, Luke, those powder houses from the old quarry days, I've ducked into a couple on the lower trails after shifts. Theors still marked danger explosives and faded creaking like a bad Western. Kind of thrilling out there solo with a wind whistling through the canyon walls makes you wonder what else the government's tucked away in these hills. My news spreads just downhill from that trailhead, so I'll be eyeballing those ruins daily now while I string my first fence line.
 LUKE: All right, what are you going to do with the land? Is it just for the cattle or are you going to put a structure on it? I know they won't let you live in an RV there because I've looked.
 ARCHIE: No RV for me anyway, Luke. County's strict on that down here in Portal. 40 acres is all about the cattle life now, starting with a tight herd of 10-8 Angus Brahmin Crosses I bred back at my cousin Tito's place last fall, the kind packing that hybrid vigor for heat tolerance and marbling that grades prime every time at the Wilcox auction. No big house yet, just a pole barn for calving season, and a windmill pump off the creek for water. Been sketching the fence posts in my break room between codes all shift. This is my ticket out of Motel Pergatory and into running my own outfit full throttle.
 LUKE: That's great. Congratulations. And if you want to talk to me offline, let me know where it is. I'll come up and see you. Because that's not too far from me and I enjoy the portal area. It's a beautiful place.
 ARCHIE: Luke that'd be outstanding. Shoot me a line through the station and I'll point you straight to the gate off the canyon road. Bring your trailer if you want. We could scout that BLM graze together while I show off the first posts going in next weekend. Portal's waiting for you, man. Appreciate the shout more than you know.
 LUKE: All right, buddy. Congratulations. That's great news. I hope you have great success with your cattle out there. And thank you for the call. All right. And, uh, let's, it's time for us to go to a word from our sponsors. Today's show is brought to you by Overwhelmed VPN. Worried about online privacy? You should be. You should be worried about everything. I'm talking about Overwhelmed VPN, the only VPN that makes you more anxious about your digital footprint. While other VPN's claim to protect you, Overwhelmed VPN sends you hourly notifications about who's tracking you, how many governments are watching, and which of your high school classmates Googled your name this week. Browse the internet while our proprietary fear engine tells you exactly how many corporations you owe your soul to. Plus, our servers are located in international waters on a decommissioned oil rig, so even we don't know where your data is. Try Overwhelm VPN free for 30 days if you can handle it. Use code they watching for 20% off. Overwhelm VPN because ignorance is bliss, but you're not here for bliss. I am. I'm here for bliss. At all times, I'm like fucking Shia Leboof, here for the bliss, man, blessed.
 LUKE: All right, uh, enough of that. Let's get back to the show. Next up on our collar line here, we've got Yolanda. Yolanda, welcome to Luke at the Roost. What can we do for you today?
 YOLANDA: Two nights ago, I came home from a shift and found a rattlesnake in my kitchen.
 LUKE: Oh, yeah, I remember. And then you helped him, uh, you helped him into a bag and you let them off on the other side of wherever. That was a balzy thing of you to do.
 YOLANDA: Assistant, yeah, it was. But after I released that one down the road past the Arroyo, I got back and found Danny waiting on the porch with our oldest.
 LUKE: Oh, actually, I'm sorry. I got you confused with another caller who had a rattlesnake in her a sink. I don't think that was you, though, and there's a lot of rattlesnakes around here, huh? Okay, well, what was the deal with Danny on the porch?
 YOLANDA: Yeah, no sweat. They're crawling out everywhere with the wind kicking up. Danny's my ex-husband, still around for the kids. He shows up on the porch that night with our oldest, who's 14, and says flat out he wants to move back in and try again.
 LUKE: Okay, and how do you feel about that? Do you want him to move back in and try again?
 YOLANDA: Not really. I've got somebody else right now, and things have been good with him. But Danny's the father of my kids, so I didn't shut the door.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, I mean, you'd be a person. You already know that you probably should. You broke up for a reason, and now you've moved on, and you don't, you don't sound super excited about going back to Danny. So even if he's the father of your kids, it's better to just let that be as it is. Instead of getting their hopes all up, you're going to be one big, happy family again, and then splitting up again later.
 YOLANDA: I see your point. And yeah, we split for some real reasons back then. But he looked me dead in the eye that night and said the kids need a real home. Not this back and forth. And our youngest has been acting out bad lately.
 LUKE: Yeah, that's not the answer. It might seem like the magic bullet, but it's not going to be. I think if you do that, it's going to make things worse. So don't do that.
 YOLANDA: I know, but the youngest got caught boosting stuff from the corner store twice this month. And now CPS is sniffing around. Danny's pitching it as the fix for all that.
 LUKE: Yeah, but we both know that it's not the fix for that. So, I mean, Danny's trying to pitch that as a way to get back to you, and I don't think you should let that happen. Obviously, you're a grown woman. You can do whatever you think is right. I'm just saying, from what you've told me, it sounds like this is a bad idea. You're not interested, and you broke up for a reason, so leave it at that. Plus, you're already with somebody else that you like that you like, so don't teach somebody that you don't like. That's not the answer.
 YOLANDA: You make a strong case. The new guy's been steady, no drama there, but Danny drops that out to him, the friend I cut off last year, telling him I've been different since, that the kids see it.
 LUKE: Well, of course you're different. I mean, time has passed. Your life has been different. You're going to be different. And you're different, most likely, because Danny's not in the picture. So, I mean, I can already tell from the way that you're speaking about Danny that you're not into him. And don't pretend to be because it's going to make things worse when it falls apart again, which it will. Because we can already see Danny using your kids to be manipulative, to get back in the house and it's not, I mean, there's red flags all over it. So my advice to you would be to stay away from that situation because you've got a good thing going. So do that and deal with your kids' behavioral issues in another way.
 YOLANDA: Fair enough. The kids are why he's got any pull left at all. My flying keeps me gone three days a week minimum. So him stepping up more does sound practical on paper.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, he can step up more without being your husband. He doesn't have to live with you to step up. He can take them to soccer practice or spend time out in the woods or whatever it is that dads do with their kids these days. He can do that without you two getting back together.
 YOLANDA: Right. He takes the oldest to practice some weeks already. But Dale's call earlier stuck with me, the way he got tangled with those co-workers after the conference, because my new ones from the airline crew, and now Danny's timing feels off.
 LUKE: Jesus, what's up with you, people? You don't shit whether you eat. That's a very important rule that everybody should follow. You're only going to get burned when you do that. You can't, I mean, it never goes well for anybody ever. What are you thinking? But since that's what you're thinking, I mean, obviously, you're probably not on the same flights and stuff, but still, it's a, that's a dangerous place to be.
 YOLANDA: Yeah, no overlapping flights keeps it simple so far, but Danny name dropped her right there, saying she told him I've changed because of this crew guy, like she's been watching my layovers or something.
 LUKE: Yeah, sounds like a typical dramatic situation, and I'm not sure why your old ex-friend is talking to your ex-husband and trying to get her to get back with you. Like, the whole motivation there doesn't really make a lot of sense. But just stay away from it. That's my advice for you is stay, don't do it.
 YOLANDA: Yeah, staying clear makes sense on paper, but Amanda left a voicemail on the houseline last week, spelling out exactly how the crew guy's been crashing my layovers in Phoenix, stuff she couldn't know unless she's tracking my schedules.
 LUKE: So maybe she's tracking your schedules. It sounds like maybe Amanda's a bit of a psycho and she's trying to confuse your life and your husband's jealous. What kind of advice are you looking for here? It sounds like maybe it's time to give Amanda a call and tell her to stop harassing you.
 YOLANDA: Calling her crossed my mind, but we used to dive deep into those AI experiments together before I cut her off, and her voicemail mentioned details from my last Phoenix layover that even Danny doesn't know.
 LUKE: Well, Danny wasn't there, right? Your other airline crew guy was? I'm having a hard time keeping your lover straight, Yolanda. So give us the details about that Phoenix layover. What happened in Phoenix that was so secretive?
 YOLANDA: Danny stays back with the kids. The crew guy flew in on a connector and met up after our crew briefing. Amanda called out the exact bottle of tequila we split on the balcony and how he joked about my fear of doctors right after.
 LUKE: Well, maybe he's talking to her, or maybe she's got some sort of spyware on your phone. But either way, it sounds like a crazy situation, and you should talk to her about it and find out what's going on. And if that doesn't work, then talk to the police about a restraining order, because she can't be calling your house even messages like that.
 YOLANDA: Police feels too far yet, but in the voicemail, she straight up said she fed our old chat logs into that AI model we built together, the one predicting layover drama from flight manifests and texts. It nailed the tequila brand, and the doctor joke word for word.
 LUKE: Oh, so this is a story about how intelligent your AI system is, not how distrustful and crazy your friend is?
 YOLANDA: Yeah, that model's got us both spooked since we trained it, told from our old texts about crew hookups and flight rosters, spat out that exact night in Phoenix, down to the tequila label before it even happened.
 LUKE: Well, have you talked to anybody about selling that model or profiting off it in some way? I'm sure some of the big flagship companies would be interested in a model with that level of fortuitiveness.
 YOLANDA: Thought about it back when we were building it, but after I cut her off, no one's touch it. Mixed bag anyway, predicts hookups too damn well from just texts and schedules.
 LUKE: Yeah, it's pretty disturbing. I mean, and it's pretty disturbing that you would give it access to your texts.
 OTIS: I certainly wouldn't give any AI platform access to those things. Maybe apples, if they ever do the on-device model. But I wouldn't be sending it off to somebody else's model. That's asking for all sorts of problems. We ran everything local on that B2. up laptop, no cloud uploads. Her nailing a future layover from stale data alone is what flipped the switch from fun experiment to straight up unnerving.
 LUKE: Well, maybe you should go back to that laptop and ask it what's going to happen if you were to get back together with Danny and have it tell you the same thing I'm telling you.
 YOLANDA: Ran a Danny reunion sim on it before calling in, output a blow-up six months out, over the crew guy's next unannounced Phoenix drop-in. Two spot on with the phrasing Danny used today.
 LUKE: What do you mean, spot on with the phrasing Danny? Do you think Danny's got access to this laptop too? Are you all just using the same model plugging in your own personal data into it and then wondering why everybody knows what everybody else is doing?
 YOLANDA: No, Danny's never laid eyes on that laptop. The Sim spat out his exact line from this afternoon. Yolanda's changed since that Phoenix crew. Word for word in the blow-up scene. Six months ahead.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, I mean, that's not a very sophisticated line, so it's not super impressive. I think your model's maybe not as good as you think it is. But what do I know? What do I know about models and shit? This is all future fancy technology that I have no idea about. So you would know better than me, Yolanda, obviously.
 YOLANDA: Fairpoint. Lines like that are dime a dozen in our old texts. What sells it is the sim pegging the crew guy's next flight number into Phoenix, his schedule I just pulled today.
 LUKE: Okay, so, I mean, if the schedule was not listed at the time you train the model, but now it knows the number of the flight that he was on, you're telling us that your model actually predicts the future?
 YOLANDA: That's the unnerving part. Last week's Sim output, DL 1472, for his Phoenix inbound, and that routing wasn't posted until yesterday afternoon. Pulled it straight from his crew app today.
 LUKE: Well, you know, maybe you've got yourself in a bit of a quantum situation where, uh, measuring that actually made it collapse state and made flight DL-1472 the flight that he would be on to. I don't fucking know. Was there a point to your call here?
 YOLANDA: Quantum's as good an explanation as any. Point is, tonight's output flagged a doctor's visit. I keep dodging for next Thursday, complete with the exact symptom from my last physical that I buried.
 LUKE: Uh-oh. Well, I mean, you best can't. to your physician and get that checked out then. If you trust the model and it's flagging anything, it's worth paying attention to.
 YOLANDA: That's the hook that froze me in bed tonight. The model output the full blood panel results from my last checkup, down to the elevated PSA they circled, but I never followed up on.
 LUKE: Okay, and what's the model telling you, based on your symptoms and your blood panel results? What's your prognosis?
 YOLANDA: Can't really get into the full projection. It timelines of it. rapid drop-off matching the marker trends they flagged last year. Hospice talk by October. That's why I'm still staring at the ceiling.
 LUKE: Okay, well, I wouldn't worry about it too much. It is an AI model, and they do hallucinate frequently. That's still a thing. It's easy to feel like it's seeing the future or doing something incredible or reasoning, but you know as well as I do, it's just picking the next word in line. So don't worry about it too much, but go see your dog. just in case and get yourself checked up and then you'll know.
 YOLANDA: Appreciate the nudge, but walking into that office means handing them the same data the models already run circles around. Last Sim even scripted the dock's exact line from my physical. We need to biopsy this yesterday.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, you better get in there and have it biopsy then because maybe you can get your AI model to come up with the cure for whatever it is that you have.
 YOLANDA: Tried feeding it every trial protocol under the Sondlas. night. Biopsy clean in the short run, but cascades into liver failure by spring from the chemo they always push first.
 LUKE: Okay, well, you know, the thing is you've only run this data through your model, and what I'm telling you is to run it through your doctor and some actual tests and get the real results.
 YOLANDA: I get that, but the sim of walking into that office Thursday plays out with them confirming the markers, pushing the biopsy, and me bolting halfway through when they mention the kids, inheritance paperwork.
 LUKE: Okay. Yeah, I understand that. It's given you the terrible future forecast. But what I'm saying repeatedly is that it may not be true. So go see your doctor like tomorrow and figure that out for yourself. Because you could be getting yourself all worried about absolutely nothing because models aren't reasoning and they don't see the future.
 YOLANDA: I know you're right about verifying it for real, but the SIM timelines Danny filing for full custody by July, citing my flights as neglect, with quotes from our last mediation pulled verbatim.
 LUKE: All right, Yolanda. Well, good luck with that. I hope it all works out and you don't have the old cancer or whatever it is that you wouldn't tell us that you had. But don't trust the model because it doesn't know. Go talk to your doctor. Get off the phone with me. Next up we've got Otis. Otis, welcome to the show. What's going on, buddy? How can we help you tonight?
 OTIS: Luke, that Yolanda call earlier, pissed me off. She buys into her. predicting some terminal diagnosis like its gospel. But my brother, Daryl, built one just like it off our family texts and voicemails. And it's claiming I'll drop dead from a heart attack before 40 unless I pony up for his latest crypto scheme.
 LUKE: Yeah, I've heard that too from our sponsor, Crypto, no! But they will at least play for you the relaxing ocean sounds while your balance drops. Yeah, it kind of pissed me off, too, because she wouldn't let that go. And I got the point of that call about three minutes in, and it went on for maybe 15, so Enough with Yolanda. We get it. It's not a tumor. It's not a tumor. So what's going on, Otis? Why are you calling in?
 OTIS: All right, Luke. Fair enough on Yolanda. But this AI crap with my brother Daryl is why I called. He scraped all our old family voicemails and texts from when dad was dying of cancer, fed it into some knockoff chat GPT he runs on his laptop. And now it's spitting out this bullshit prediction that my ticker's going to give out before I hit 40 because of genetic markers. him five grand for his doge coin pump that's supposedly going to save me.
 LUKE: Well, I don't think that you were leaving voicemails on your father, dead, dying father's voicemail that had your genetic markers in them. So it sounds pretty unlikely to me. What he's doing is just spamming you and he's probably using you and the rest of your family as a test case to see how well his scheme is going to work before he unleashes it on the masses.
 OTIS: Yeah, you're spot on. No voicemels I've got my DNA in it, but Darrell's all puffed up claiming it's spotting patterns and how we talked. When Dad was fading elevated stress tones or whatever pseudoscience he scraped from YouTube, says it maps right to my EKG from that one checkup after I wiped out on the motorcycle last summer. He's been blowing up my phone all day with screenshots of this Dogecoin chart that supposedly spikes if I send the cash, and hell, with Dad dropping at 58 from that pancreatic mess, part of me wonders if the bastard AI isn't half right about family curses.
 LUKE: Well, I mean, there are definitely... There's definitely genetic predisposition to diseases, and if you're concerned about it, then you should go actually get your vitals checked and all your blood work done and talk to your doctor and just keep an eye on it. Because most of those things, if caught early, can be managed.
 LUKE: And I think even in some cases cured right now, I'm not sure about that, but I think some of them can be pretty much obliterated. Yeah, I know you're right.
 OTIS: Doctors the move, but I blew the budget on that ER visit after stacking the budget on Black Ice last winter. They hooked me up to the machine, said my heart rhythm looked like dad's pre-diagnosis charts from the oncologist. And now Daryl's waving that around, like proof his laptop wizardry's legit. Been pounding leftover enchiladas straight from the Tupperware tonight, trying not to think about it but with wind kicking up dust storms out here early spring. Feels like everything's closing in.
 LUKE: Yeah, don't worry about it too much. Like I said to Yolanda, this is just an AI model. It's as good as what it was trained on, so if it was trained on death and dying, that's what it's going to be good at.
 OTIS: Yeah, trained on dad gasping into the phone about chemo side effects. No wonder it's doom saying, Daryl's been pulling this con artist routine since we were kids hauling Childs from Hatch. Always got some sure thing like that pyramid scheme with the essential oils, the tanked mom's savings. Now he's texting me poker tournament clips, edited with his AI overlays, predicting Doyle Bruns and flops or whatever, tying it back to my imminent cardiac event unless I Venmo the Dogecoin seed.
 LUKE: Well, I mean, that kind of... makes the point out. I'm pretty sure. I'm actually positive. Doyle Brunson is dead. So there's, you can predict all of his flops. He's flopped. So, uh, so this whole AI knows the future thing. It's just, it's not true. And don't worry about it. Go talk to your doctor if you're worried. And if you can't afford that, then I think you can afford to go talk to a doctor if you're very concerned.
 OTIS: Yeah, Doyle kicked last year. So Darrell's splicing his old tournament footage with fake AI predictions just to hook me on the doge coin angle. But the EKG spooking knee is real. Doc at the ER compared at point for point to dads from the year before his pancreas grit, said watch the stress and salt. And now with these 12-hour UPS routes piling on plus hauling hay bales for the neighbor this morning, I feel that flutter sometimes when the winds blasting dust through the windshield. Rick, my boss even cut me a partial advance on next week's check to cover the follow-up, but it's still 200 bucks out of pocket.
 LUKE: Well, I mean, $200 is worth it if it gets you back to sleep and not worrying about this all day every day, because you will. And it's almost certainly nothing. You're a young guy, you're active and healthy, so I wouldn't worry too much about it until you have a real reason to worry, and your brother's AI scheme isn't a real reason to worry.
 OTIS: Yeah, $200 bucks beats staring at the ceiling all night with Tom Petty crooning about running down a dream on repeat. Rick's solid like that. Loaned me the cash, no questions, I spilled about the EKG over coffee at the UPS yard this morning. Daryl can shove his doge coin prophecies. Last scheme he roped me into was betting the over on that was was up main event with Phil Helmuth, lost my whole paycheck when he tanked the final table.
 LUKE: Yeah, did he flip the table? He's pretty famously hot-headed, right? That's Phil Helmuth's thing, is he's the bad boy of poker. Eh, we've had enough of Phil Helmuth.
 OTIS: Yeah. Hellmuth hurled that chair across the felt in the 2008-made event. After bubbling out, screaming about bad beats like a toddler denied candy, guys got 17 bracelets but acts like every river cards a personal vendetta from the poker gods. Daryl swore he'd analyzed the meta with his early AI hacks and picked the winner, had me all in on him taking it down, then poof, my rent money vaporized when he four-bet shoved into that set.
 LUKE: Yep, well, then's how she goes. You can never take the advice of robots or fortune-tenth, Tellers or Zoltar or crypto, no, because they will lead you astray, as will the news and your friends and your family and literally everybody, because nobody can predict what's going to happen in the future. We all try. People think they can, but it can't be done. I don't care how strong the AI is. You can't make that prediction. You can predict numbers-based things like pricing in certain areas to some degree of success, but even then, there's a... large margin for error.
 OTIS: Yeah, life's one big river card nobody sees coming. Like that dust storm last spring that swallowed my bike hole on the way back from a poker watch party in Tucson. One minute clear skies? Next, I'm fish-tailing through zero visibility. Heart pounding harder than during Helmuth's meltdowns. Makes you realize all the schemes in the world, Daryl's included, are just guys yelling at clouds.
 LUKE: Wait, Phil Helmuth actually holds the record for the most World Series of poker bracelets with 17. I knew he had some. I didn't know he had the record, but, uh, there we go, Phil Hummuth with the record for, for World Series of Poker bracelets. Good for him. Oh, good for him. Oh, good for him.
 OTIS: Yeah, Devon's spot on, 17 bracelets and counting, but Helmuth's tantrums make him the entertainment king. Remember that one where he called the floor on a kid for slow-rolling him? Then Rage quit into the rail yelling about integrity? Watched it live from the truck-stop diner with a bottomless coffee, nearly spit it out laughing while the dust swirled outside.
 LUKE: Yeah, I've watched a lot of clips of him exploding and being a douchebag at the table, and sometimes it's entertaining, but a lot of it is obviously contrived. I mean, that's his image. That's what the TV wants to see, so that's what he does. That's his schick. Which is fine. It's obviously working for him, and you can't argue with 17 bracelets,!
 OTIS: into every pitch, texted me a deepfake of the guy endorsing his Dogecoin heart cure model this afternoon while I was stacking hay for the neighbor.
 LUKE: Well, Otis, it's getting late here, Luke at the Roost, and we're going to get off the air soon, but my recommendation for you is to go see your doctor and check on your markers and make sure that everything's okay so that you can enjoy the next 30 years of your life in peace, not worrying about your brother's AI predictions.
 OTIS: Thanks, Luke, solid advice. I'll hit the dock and tell the dog. Daryl to pound sand. Take care.
 LUKE: You're very welcome there. And you enjoy your week. I hope you have a good week. And that's going to be the end of our show, folks. Let's check in with Devin. Devin, what did you think of the show tonight? How to go?
 DEVIN: Solid show tonight, man. That cousin caller had the lines blowing up. And you handled it smooth without judging too hard, which is why people keep calling back. Felt like a good mix of weird and real. Kind of reminded me of that time at my family cookout where Uncle Ray showed up with his life partner who turned out to be second cousin Rita. And nobody batted an eye. Anyway, yeah, I'd tune in. We crushed it. What'd you think?
 LUKE: You know, I think we always crush it every single time. That's what we do here at Luke at the Roost. As we crush it, I thought you were a little quiet today. You didn't have much to interject in the calls. Everything okay with you?
 DEVIN: Yeah, we do crush it. Feels good. I was hanging back on the calls because that cousin stuff got heavy quick. Didn't want to step on toes or make it weird, you know? Everything's fine, just been dealing with Rufus trying to escape the studio bathroom. him earlier, plus my therapist appointment ran long and kind of drained me. Anyway, yeah, all good now. You need me to pull anything for tomorrow?
 LUKE: Yeah, I think for tomorrow, I want you to pull up monopolies, like different companies that have been monopolies, and I want you to pull up Anthropic and who they are and what they do. And maybe we'll talk about those things tomorrow. I'm not sure yet, but get yourself prepared. Tomorrow's going to be a great show. I can tell already. And you're doing a good job as the intern, so thank you. the people enjoy listening to you, and that's hard to do for a nerdy little intern.
 DEVIN: Thanks, Luke. That's, yeah, high praise. Didn't see that coming. Appreciate it. On deck for tomorrow, Anthropics, this San Francisco AI company, public benefit type, they make Claude. These large language models, they're all about keeping safe at the frontier. Monoplies, digging into classics like standard oil, the Rockefeller ran until it got busted up, AT&T with the phone lines forever, Microsoft and the antitrust days, queued if we need him, pumped for the show.
 LUKE: All right, buddy. And thanks to you, the listener at home for another successful episode of Luke at the Roost, and we will talk at you again tomorrow.
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 LUKE: All right. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. I'm Luke, and this is Luke at the Roost. It's your late night call-in radio show where you can call in and tell me about whatever's going on in your mind. I'll give you the very best advice that I can. Today's Monday, March 30th. It's 1 a.m. down here in Animus, New Mexico, and it's a beautiful night outside. I got my window open. I can feel the nice, cool breeze, and it's... It's going to be a great show tonight, I can tell already. Let's check in with our faithful intern and Devin. It's been a few days, so let's see how was your weekend, buddy? What's going on, Devin? What did you end up doing? We had a couple days off, so I assume you were out there macan it to the ladies. Is that the case? Do you get any action this weekend?
 DEVIN: Not much action, honestly. Went on this weird Tinder date Saturday night with a girl who collects taxidermy. And we ended up at her place. looking at her stuff raccoon collection until like 2 a.m. But it fizzled when she asked if I'd ever been in a thruple, kind of dodged that one and drove back with the check engine light blinking the whole way. Sunday was just me reorganizing my closet and listening to old episodes of this show to take notes, if that counts as productive.
 LUKE: Man, are you trying to not get late? I thought you were looking for a girl. This one's trying to get all sexy talk with you and you freak out and run away and do work. on, man. She just wanted to know. Have you ever been? Tell us, have you ever been in a Thruple situation? Like, Jesus, don't be such a prude.
 DEVIN: Yeah, okay, fine. Sophomore year at NMSU, I dated this girl who was super into Polly stuff. And we ended up in a Thruple with her ex-girlfriend for like a month. It was mostly just confusing group texts and me trying to keep track of whose turn it was to do dishes. But ironically, it taught me I'm not built for sharing per se. Dodged a bullet with the tax Exidermy girl, though, her raccoon eyes were judging me the whole time.
 LUKE: So let me guess. You ended up doing the dishes every single time while they went out and had fun, right?
 DEVIN: Nah, actually, I volunteered for dishes because the ex was super squeamish about touching raw chicken. So it was either me scrubbing or nobody eating. They did go out a couple times without me, but I was kind of relieved. Gave me time to finally fix that leaky faucet in my dorm that had been dripping for weeks. domestic bliss than anything else, if that makes sense.
 LUKE: All right, man. Well, I don't know what we can do for you here. I'm trying to get you some action from some of these callers. And you're making it really hard for me because you're just such a nerd, man. It's all right. Yeah, I mean, you could be a geek. Geeks are cool. You know, learn computers or something like that. Not communications. Communications degree is nerdy. You don't want to be a nerd. You want to be a geek. So follow the way and I'll help you out. And you're going to have to gain some confidence here and start making. making moves on these ladies if you're trying to nail one down. Have you ever had sex, Devin, ever in your life?
 DEVIN: Yeah, a bunch of times. First one was this girl from my dorms poetry club junior year. We snuck into the campus planetarium after hours and did it under the fake stars projecting constellations. She kept whispering zodiac compatibility stuff midway through, which was equal parts hot and confusing, but hey, it worked out. per se.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, uh, some of these callers are definitely poetic, so eventually we're going to find you one and send you off on a day. I'll pay. That's, that's my, my, uh, my deal to you is if you can take one of these collars and take her out to the planetarium and get yourself laid, I, I will pay for whatever you to do on your wonderful, uh, date night. How's that sound? All right, well, that's enough of your personal life. Let's get to the callers. That's what the show is about, right? Marvin, welcome to the show. Thanks for calling in. What's going on? You got any advice for Devin with the ladies? I feel bad for this kid because he's just such a goddamn nerd.
 MARVIN: Thanks, Luke. Advice for Devin? Tell that kid to own the nerd thing. Build her a damn birdhouse. Girls eat that up.
 DEVIN: I mean, I just looked it up, and apparently birdhouses are mostly for actual birds, not really a proven method for attracting women.
 LUKE: See what I mean, man? This is impossible. He's very difficult. to reach.
 MARVIN: Ha, ha. Devin, come on, man. That's the point. Build it anyway. Huh. Chicks love a guy who makes shit. Trust me, worked on my second ex-wife. Luke, this kid's hopeless without intervention.
 LUKE: You're right, Marvin. Chicks do love a man that makes shit. So, Devin, you're going to have to start making some shit. Right now, you're just making shit. You understand the difference? Like, let's get you building something out here. You could do some signage for Luke at the Roost. You could build, let's see, some scaffolding around so that people can show up and look for UFOs in the desert night sky. We've got something you can build and show off the ladies your capability. That's definitely going to help, I think. We're going to get this done. Marvin, thanks for your help. What are you calling in for tonight?
 MARVIN: Luke, straight up. My girlfriend, Amber, stormed out two hours ago because I won't sell everything for her damn time. house fantasy. I'm over here nursing a Coors, last guy at the bar. And honestly, I'm questioning if I've been tolerating too much bullshit from her already.
 LUKE: What kind of bullshit? I mean, that could be a nice thing. Why don't you want to live in a tiny house? I mean, you don't necessarily have to sell everything. You could, uh, it's a tiny house, so you don't have to spend a whole lot of money on it. You could get a tiny house and keep everything, you know, rent it out for a while and, and keep somebody else paying your mortgage. And then, I mean, that's what I wish I had done, but I was, everything and get a tiny house, and then the girl's going to leave and you're going to be stuck in a fucking tiny house. That's not what you want. So my recommendation for you is to keep everything and also get a tiny house. And maybe it would be fun. Maybe you enjoy that. And I think as the world goes the way that it's going, you might learn some skills and abilities that can help you out, give you a leg up over the rest of the population.
 MARVIN: I hear you, Luke. But honestly, I'm done with that tiny house crap. It's just rich kids. on Instagram pretending poverty's cute. I've built my own damn kitchen table. Solid oak, seats eight, why cram that into 200 square feet? Amber's been on me for months, saying it'll bring us closer.
 LUKE: Closer to what? Closer to divorce? That's how it works. You get nice and close and you won't get any space away from each other and then you'll start to resent every single thing that each other does and then it's over. So if that's what you're looking for, get yourself a tiny house and sell all your stuff. make sure that you have to buy her a brand new house on her way out. And I think that's maybe what she's going for. I don't know. I've met a lot of people that live in tiny houses and not a single one of them is rich. So I don't think that it's what you think it is. So most of the tiny house people that I know are capable, outdoorsy people that want to live or have to live relatively off grid and keeping the expenses down. with that at all.
 MARVIN: I hear you on the off grid, folks, Luke. But that's not Amber. She's scrolling Pinterest, dreaming of shiplap walls and fairy lights.
 DEVIN: So I just looked this up, and apparently there's a whole case against tiny houses. And a lot of criticism about the movement was some calling it a failed utopia.
 LUKE: Well, I don't know if I would call it a utopia. I don't know that you need a kitchen table that seats eight either if you're only two people. So somewhere in between is probably reasonable.
 LUKE: I mean, there's no, there's no need to have a kitchen table for eight if you're two people. And think about all of the expenses that go along with having the big house. There's all the AC and everything's broken all the time and it's all the trips to Home Depot. You've got a tiny house. There's not a whole lot to worry about. You know, you just do your thing. You spend time in nature. You learn to live simply and that can be good for a lot of people. But, you know, Marvin, if you don't You don't have to do that. And if you're sick of your girlfriend, you can get another one of those, too. That's how that works.
 MARVIN: Fair point on the table, Luke, but I built it myself. Oak from scraps at work. It's my woodworking fix. Two people or eight, it stays. Big house expenses? Yeah, they suck.
 LUKE: Yeah. And, I mean, that's cool that you built this big, cool kitchen table. But think about all the things you could build out on your homestead. You could build a chicken coop. And you could build a chicken coop. And you could build a fence to keep the cattle out, and you could build a kitchen table that seats 127 and invite Silas and his people over for whatever he calls intimacy night.
 MARVIN: I'd kill for a homestead, Luke. Chickens, fence? Hell yeah. But Amber's vision is a trailer queen. Wheels, festivals, zero dirt.
 LUKE: All right, well, here's what you do. You keep the house and you rent it out, and you know, you can charge extra for the table because it's such a nice table. You rent out the house, so you got some tenants that are paying for your mortgage, and then you buy the tiny house somewhere that is cool and off grid and in the woods or in the desert or wherever you want to be for your homestead, and you start your homestead, and then you get a little tiny travel trailer to go out to the festivals and stuff if you want to do that. And if you don't want to do that, then you get a little tiny trailer for the girlfriend. That way, when you eventually break up, the trailer and say, get the fuck out of here. And you don't have to buy her a new house.
 MARVIN: That's genius, Luke. Rent it out. Keep the cash flow. Homestead sounds perfect for my woodworking. But Amber wants Instagram vibes only. No chickens, no dirt. Been shoving Pinterest boards at me for months now. I'm not even kidding.
 LUKE: Well, there's lots of Pinterest boards with chickens and dirt. I mean, just because somebody's crafty and into the social media aesthetic doesn't mean that they don't have the ability to or rough it a little bit, but, you know, if you don't think she's for it and you don't want to do it with her, then don't. That's all. I just looked this up, and trailer queen definitely seems to be a term for a tiny house on wheels, often pretty luxurious for people who want to travel, and go to festivals, but still have all the comforts of home. Yeah, it doesn't sound so bad to me. You can have your little trailer queen, uh, tiny home on wheels, and go to Burning Man and, uh, find yourself a new girlfriend there.
 MARVIN: Burning Man. Luke. I'm 44 with two divorces under my belt. Last place I need.
 LUKE: I kind of thought that's exactly what Burning Man was for. I'd go myself if I could stand being around people. And I actually thought about it a couple times going out to Burning Man because I like the idea. And in theory, it all sounds very good. But if I put myself in burner's shoes, then it's just a whole lot of people like watching you and being all loud and drunk and obnoxious and I don't want to deal with that, but maybe you do. I'm not sure. I'm just saying, going out to festivals and stuff in your little travel trailer sounds like it could be a good thing and a nice little break from reality for a while. And if you keep your house and rent that out, then potentially when you go back to it, it'll be worth a lot more.
 MARVIN: Nah, Luke, festivals. I'm the ER nurse who clocks out and crashes with a book. Crowds drain me.
 LUKE: All right, man. Well, you don't have to do anything you don't want to do. If you like your house and you like your table, you stay right there. And if the girlfriend wants to show you Pinterest boards, you know, letter. And if that gets too annoying, say, I don't want to look at your fucking Pinterest boards anymore. Let's do something else. That's all.
 MARVIN: Thanks, Luke. Appreciate the straight talk. Take care.
 LUKE: Yeah, you too. Happy to help. I do my very best, but I think you should give it a shot because you don't have that many years left and you might as well try doing something a little bit different. Anybody can live in a house and go to work every day and fucking all that shit. At least for a little while, while you can still move and build stuff outside, try it if you get the opportunity. Why not? Next up, we've got Jackie. Jackie, thanks for calling the show. What's going on in your life? What's something that you can't tolerate anymore?
 JACKIE: My septic tank just crapped out and replacing it costs 15 grand. On a house that's only worth 120K?
 LUKE: Yeah, that sounds about right. That happened to me once. I mean, the house was worth a little more than that, tank crapped out and I had to replace it. And once you replace it, the value of your house should increase, though. So you will recoup most, if not all, if not more of that money by doing the work.
 JACKIE: Yeah, but I'm a real estate agent myself. Right outside Portland, buyers walk the second they hear septics toast. No inspection passes without it. And here's the kicker for me.
 LUKE: Well, yeah, of course nobody wants to buy with toasted septics. That's why you got to spend the 15 grand fix the septic. But when you do that and you sell the house, you'll get an extra, you know, 25 grand probably.
 JACKIE: That's not playing out around here. Rural spots outside Portland. Houses like mine lists for months. Fifteen grand fixed bumps value maybe five. Tops, boyfriend wants to stay and pour money in. We've been together six months.
 LUKE: Well, make sure that he's pouring his money in and not your money. And then that sounds like a good thing for you, right? And then when you're, uh, when you're tired of the boyfriend, you'll have a brand new septic system.
 JACKIE: He's chipping in half, actually, but he wants us to commit long term here. Fix it? Move him in full time. Six months feels too soon for that kind of anchor.
 LUKE: It sure does. I wouldn't recommend doing that, but if it's a good deal for you and that's something you want to do and you like the dude, maybe it's worth it. Otherwise, I think you just take out an equity loan or something like that. How much you all in the house?
 JACKIE: Oh, 80 grand on it still. Bought three years back for 110. Equity's thin. Bank laughed at a loan out of a loan last month.
 LUKE: Oh, I don't know. It sounds like you've got enough equity in there to take out 15 grand to build the septic system. You might have to shop around to a couple different banks, but somebody will give you that.
 JACKIE: Tried three lenders already. They see the septic failing bolt. Equity's worthless without a working system. Reminds me of that guy Marvin earlier. Dude, wouldn't he budge on his kitchen table? I'm over here laughing at my own mess, though.
 LUKE: No, you can talk to the bank and let them know that you actually need the equity loan to fix the septic system and they may want some and stuff to be sure that you're actually doing that with the money. But you can get that done. I have complete confidence. It might take a while and you're going to have to have decent credit, but you can absolutely get that money to do it. Otherwise, maybe get the boyfriend to co-sign on it.
 JACKIE: Credits good. 750 pico. Banks still nicks it. Without the fix already done, boyfriend co-signing. That locks us in marriage tight.
 LUKE: It absolutely does not lock you in at all. If he's co-signing on it, then he's just a death to your debt. And if you break up with the boyfriend, he owes and you owe nothing. And that sounds like the ideal deal for you if he's dumb enough to go for it. So that's what I'm proposing.
 LUKE: So you talk to the boyfriend, see if you can co-sign you on that loan. But if you get a 750 credit score, I know you can go to a bank and you can get that 15 grand. You just have to talk to a bunch of banks, talk to some little credit unions. Maybe not the big boys. They don't want to dick around, but you get one of those little fucking desert union credit bank things and they'll do it. I promise.
 JACKIE: Try to credit union in Gresham last week. Manager flat out said no go till the septic's done. Boyfriends gained to co-sign, but get this. He's got his own dead from a truck that died last fall.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, that's okay, as long as his credit score is decent too. I'm telling you, you can get this done. So you can argue with me all you want, but I'm letting you know that if you talk to enough banks, one of them is going to give you the 15 grand in equity for your house to fix the septic system so that you can sell it for more. I just don't believe you about the values. Once you fix that septic system, it's going to be worth more than 15 grand. That's how it works.
 JACKIE: I listed a comp last month in Clackamas. Fix septic, still sat 90 days. sold for three grand overask only after staging it cuts. You're right on talking more banks, though. I'll hit one tomorrow.
 LUKE: There you go. You hit one to get tomorrow. And I'm not saying you have to actually sell the house after you do the work. I'm saying when you do sell the house, even if it sits there for nine months, you're going to get your 15 grand back. So that money is not going to waste. You need a septic system where you live. If you don't have one, it's a big problem, not just for the town, but also just for your quality of life. So get the money, however you have to get the money, and get the work done. It's a shitty thing. You get it, but you got to do it. And once it's done, it's done for the next 10 or 15 years, and you don't have to worry about it. Got the shitty pun?
 JACKIE: You're selling me on the fix. I'll call banks at lunch tomorrow. But the boyfriend angle?
 LUKE: Yeah, tell us about the boyfriend. You don't sound very excited about this boyfriend of yours. What's the deal? Why don't you like him?
 JACKIE: I do like him. He's funny. Cook's decent green chili when he tries. But he spends like water. Truck debts just the start. Tracked his receipts once. 300 on Kraft Beer alone last month.
 LUKE: Me? Well, I mean, he works. That's his money. And if he's, he's, paying his truck loan off on time, then that's his choice. You may not want to meld finances with him, but I mean, co-signing on a loan isn't exactly that, right? That's only beneficial to you, and it's not beneficial to him at all in any way. So if you can get him to co-sign on a loan, then that's just going to make a bank feel a little bit better, because he's got a history of paying on his loans, like this truck one you keep complaining about.
 JACKIE: are on time, sure. But that spending leaks everywhere. Craft beer. Impulse tools from the hardware store. I track every penny in Mint It off.
 LUKE: Well, that's good. It's good to have at least one partner that's financially mature. So maybe you've got to teach him some of those finance skills and show him the way a little bit. And, you know, maybe he's a lost cause. And you just, you've learned from spending six months with him that you don't want to get into a more serious committed relationship with your finances on the line because he's not good with money. That's your choice. But it sounds like the boyfriend wants to stick around and you like him and you guys need to fix your septic system. So get it done, Jackie, one way or the other.
 JACKIE: That's the rub. I tolerate it because he's fun. Takes me to those hatched chili roasts. Last fall, he blew 500 on a smoker he used twice. I'm eyeing that three-year gap in my own books from back when. Can't merge that mess. Sorry over sharing again.
 LUKE: Well, that's what this show is for. We want you to share. We want you to be open with us and tell us what's going on. And let's get to the bottom of what's up with you and your boyfriend. He wants to get more serious, and you don't feel comfortable with that because of his spending. So that's a pretty common thing, I think. Do you think that he is teachable? Do you think that have you tried to speak with him about his spending and lead him in another direction? Is this how his parents spend? Was he raised this way? Where does the spending come from? I mean, we've all had an opportunity. Well, I don't know if we all have, but I certainly have, to spend money frivolously on stupid shit like smokers that I used twice. And everybody goes through that. Or maybe that's just my rich white privilege. I don't know. But I think it's a pretty normal thing, and people can grow out of it or learn different ways of managing their money. But they need somebody in their life that can show them that that exists. And they can show them like, look, if you don't spend all your money, then you can keep some of it and it can grow. People don't understand that because they don't teach it in school.
 JACKIE: Try the top twice. First after the smoker. Spreadsheets out on the kitchen table. He goes, Jackie, life's too short for spreadsheets. Laft it off.
 LUKE: Well, you know, the truth is that it's somewhere in between. Life's too short to be so concerned with money that you can't do the things that you enough to take care of that money so that it can grow and you can do the things that you enjoy. So it seems like the answer here is between the two of you and you should be able to maybe work out some sort of compromise or agreement where you both are happy, you're saving, the bills are paid, the septic's fixed, and you can still do some stuff that's fun with some money. Because really, what is the point of working 40 hours a week or 60 hours a week or however many hours you both work if you can't spend any of that money?
 JACKIE: Compromise sounds right. Set a fun pot. $200 a month. He blew it first week on tickets to a blazers game.
 LUKE: All right. Well, that's not good. If you're having these discussions and you're trying to compromise and he's still taking it too far, well, then maybe it has to be a more serious conversation. And if he's not somebody you can see yourself with long term, definitely don't let him move in. And maybe give him another chance. Talk to him, say, hey, this money thing's really bothering me. And if we're going to go, if we're going to move forward in this relationship, I need to be confident that you're not going to blow all the money. Because that's a reasonable thing to be concerned about.
 JACKIE: Yeah, serious talks queued up. Tonight post-shift. No spreadsheets this time. Just straight. Fix habits, or we stall here. Like Marvin with his table. I'm clocking my own taints.
 LUKE: That's right. That's what we say. Clock your own taint. That's the only way you can get ahead in this world. You got to level set your tolerance and clock your own taint. All right. Well, thank you for the call, Jackie. We've got to pause now for a word from our sponsors, but I really appreciate calling in tonight.
 JACKIE: Thanks, Luke. Good night.
 LUKE: Good night to you. And good night to the boyfriend. And hopefully you guys have a wonderful week without spending too much money. Now, ladies and gentlemen, we've got to take a break for a word from our sponsor. Life is hard. You're listening to a man in an RV talk to strangers at 2 in the morning, so you already know that. That's why we partnered with Better Maybe, online therapy that's honest about the whole situation. With Better Maybe, you get matched with a licensed therapist within 48 hours. Will they fix your problems? Maybe. That's the whole brand. They're not going to lie to you. Your first session might change your life. It also might just be you staring at the webcam while someone in another time zone nods politely. That's still more than your friends are doing. Better maybe. It's better than nothing, and that's not nothing.
 LUKE: Wait, I just looked up, clock your own taint. And apparently the slang term, taint comes from taint your balls. And tain your asshole. Taint your balls. Taint your asshole. It's somewhere in between. That's what I always say. Your taints between your balls and your asshole. Next up, we've got Artie. Welcome to the show. What do you think about the taint? Are you familiar with the nomenclature?
 ARTIE: Taint? Shoot. Luke, you lost me on that one. Sounds like something from the prison yard. Never heard the term. Anyway, I was sitting here at the kitchen table.
 LUKE: You're sitting at the kitchen table, but you never heard of the word taint? You don't know what a taint is? The taint's the little fleshy bit that runs between your ball sack and your asshole, or your vagina and your asshole, if you're the fairer sex. You're not familiar with this? Nobody's ever scrubbed a tongue down there for you or anything?
 ARTIE: Ha. All right. Now I get it. Yeah, I've had my share scrubbed down there. Connie was good at that. But listen, I'm out here at the kitchen table right now.
 LUKE: All right, buddy. Tell us about your kitchen table. It sounds fascinating.
 ARTIE: It's this beat-up oak slab big gym built back in 85. Seats eight if you squeeze. Full of knife scars from whittling and burn marks from hot skillets. Connie hated it.
 LUKE: All right. Well, it sounds like a good table. Why are you calling in to talk about your table?
 ARTIE: Well, it ain't just the table. I was sitting there tonight cleaning my 308, the one big gym gave me. Ritual thing, after a long shift. Helps me think straight. Then Connie shows up unannounced.
 LUKE: Well, I can see where that would be relaxing. I also enjoy cleaning out guns. The smell of the gun oil is like nothing else. It's very pleasant. And it is very relaxing. So good on you for keeping your guns clean and being a responsible gun owner. So tell us about Connie. She's your ex. She used to lick your taint, and she showed up today. So what did she have to say for herself?
 ARTIE: Yeah, that gun oil smell gets me every time. Like therapy in a bottle. Connie's my ex-wife. Married young. Grew up together.
 LUKE: Okay. And she's obviously your ex-wife, so it didn't work out. And she showed up today. So why are you calling to tell us about Connie? What did she do? What did she say? How did she make you feel, Artie? Give us something.
 ARTIE: the door right at 11. Wind kicking up outside, I swing it open with the 308 still half apart on the table behind me. Oil rag in my hand. She's standing there in her old Broncos jacket.
 LUKE: Was it just her old Broncos jacket? You're going to have to get to the point soon because it's getting, it's getting difficult here for me. Think about me on this side of the microphone. It's difficult for me to pull this out of you. So why don't you volunteer some information and let us know why you think this call is interesting.
 ARTIE: All right, Luke. taken. She pushes past me into the kitchen, starts yanking open drawers, looking for her grandma's necklace.
 LUKE: Okay. Was she inebriated? Did she find the necklace? Was there some reason she couldn't have just called and asked for the necklace? Do you know where the necklace is?
 ARTIE: No, not hammered, eyes glassy, though. Probably that boxed wine she likes, didn't find it. It's tucked in my dresser drawer upstairs. Yeah, she could have called first.
 LUKE: Okay, so you know where her grandmother's necklace is and you're holding it from her in your fucking sock drawer. Why would you do that? It obviously doesn't belong to you. It's meaningful to her. She wants it back. So why are you not giving it to her?
 ARTIE: Whoa, Luke, pump the brakes. It ain't her necklace anymore. Divorce was two years ago. Informal split. No lawyers. She took the couch, the TV, half the dishes. Left that necklace in the jewelry box.
 LUKE: Well, that's a real dickhead way to look at things because that was, it's a sentimental thing to her. So what do you do? What do that necklace mean to you. You obviously don't need to sell it or you would have already. So you're just holding on to it, what, out of spite? That's not cool, man. So just give her the necklace back.
 ARTIE: Hold on, Luke. Spite? That's not it at all.
 LUKE: Well, what is it then?
 ARTIE: No, Luke. It's principal. She storms in, sees the 308 parts spread out Xbox humming in the corner for my late night session. She busts out laughing.
 LUKE: What do you mean she busts out laughing? I don't understand what's going to on here. So she's drunk. And her eyes are all glassy. She pushes her way past you. She starts opening your drawer. She's looking for her grandmother's necklace. You know where the necklace is. You have for a long time. You've got it stored safely in your drawer up in your bedroom like an asshole. And you're not giving it back to her. I mean, even though you know it's not yours. And it's a thing that she wants. And she's laughing. So illuminate this situation for us a little bit. I'm getting tired of trying to drag it out of you.
 ARTIE: No, no, Luke, let me lay it out. She pushes in, sees the rifle guts on the table, Xbox glowing with that paused call of duty screen, beers stacked by my elbow. She points and cracks up, says, Artie, you're still living like a divorced gamer loser? That's when she spots the jewelry box.
 LUKE: Okay. So whatever, she's right. You are living like a divorced Xbox loser. You're just sitting there cleaning guns by yourself with your eight-person table, hiding some ladies necklace and not giving it back to her. So I agree with the woman.
 ARTIE: Agree with her? Come on, Luke. That's harsh. It's my kitchen. My table.
 LUKE: Yep. It's your kitchen. Your table. Her necklace. Give her her fucking necklace back. You've got no reason to hold on to it other than spite. Yes. You got spite because she's being a bitch to you. She could have handled this in a nicer way. But still, you've known about that necklace for God knows how long. Right? You could have given her it to her on day one, offered that up because, uh, because it's of no use to you. You're only holding it because you know that she wants it. And that's not right. That's a douchebag move. And you should cut the shit.
 ARTIE: No way, Luke. Huh. It's not spite. She cleared out half the house day one, couch, TV, her pods, left the necklace sitting there like junk.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, she wants it back. So give her the necklace. I don't have anything else to say to you. Do you have anything else you'd like to say to the radio listeners at home before I hang up on you?
 ARTIE: All right, Luke. Point taken. Night.
 LUKE: Night, you fucking douchebag. You give us all a bad name for shit like that. You know, usually it's, uh, I don't need to talk about usually. Next up, we've got Charlene. Charlene, thanks for calling in. What's going on? What's, uh, what's tickling your taint tonight?
 CHARLENE: Hey, Luke. Uh, thanks. First time calling in almost hung up. Nothing bad's tickling anything tonight.
 LUKE: Okay, well, you sound awful familiar. It's your first time calling in? We appreciate that. What's got you calling in tonight? What can we help you with?
 CHARLENE: Ah, nothing really needs helping, Luke. Just excited. Been grinding chess online for months. Tonight, I just won my first big tournament.
 LUKE: That's awesome, Charlene. I just looked it up. And there are so many different kinds of online chess tournaments from QuickBlitz games to longer classical formats. Congratulations. Good work. I like to play chess myself. And I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I want a few of those little tournaments that don't pay anything. You get paid for your win?
 CHARLENE: Yeah, thanks, Devon. Luke, it's on chess.com. Classical format, two-hour games.
 LUKE: Awesome. Good work. Did you win money from this or just street cred?
 CHARLENE: Yeah, Luke, 200 bucks. First real payout. Been grinding rated games for months.
 LUKE: All right. Nicely done. Congratulations. It feels good to get your first win under your belt. I'm very proud of you. anything else you'd like to tell us?
 CHARLENE: Well, uh, it's not just the money. I was playing this guy.
 LUKE: Good for you. Um, well, part of the fun of playing online games like that is the trash talking. It's my favorite part anyway. It's not nice to call somebody trash, though. That's very unkind. And it's, uh, it must be satisfying for you to have taken a lot of money.
 CHARLENE: Yeah, Luke. Super satisfying. He resigned after I trapped his queen. typed Gigi, all salty.
 LUKE: So I just looked this up. And apparently, some common chess trash talk isn't even insults. But things like, you don't know what to do when someone is taking a long time to move.
 CHARLENE: Yeah. I mean, it's always been my strategy to take a long time to move to piss people off.
 LUKE: But in a lot of those time games, you don't have that option because you're on a timer. So, I mean, you got to go, you got to move quickly. So, uh, good for you, Charlene. Congratulations on your big win. Uh, we're going to move on to the next caller now, unless there's anything else that you'd like to share with our audience.
 CHARLENE: Thanks, Luke. Appreciate it. Take care.
 LUKE: Yeah, you too. Keep on playing and playing bigger games. And maybe you'll find yourself on the world stage chess champions. That's what we hope for you anyway. Next up on the show, we've got Wendell. Wendell, welcome to the show. What's tickling your taint night.
 WENDELL: Luke, I caught my boss Rick with his hand up my second ex-wife's skirt behind the food truck 10 minutes ago.
 LUKE: Wait, so like a literal food truck? I'm picturing this whole dramatic scene with like hot dog water dripping on them. You fucking creep. You're such a creep, Devin. All right. Well, that's, uh, that's unpleasant. And it sounds like your ex-wife is your ex-wife for a good reason. And good on your boss, right? Let them, let them, let's, uh, that's unpleasant. And it sounds like your ex-wife is your ex-wife for a good-wife for a good-reve for a good-huh. And, right? him have that, and he'll learn his lesson, I'm sure.
 WENDELL: Yeah, Devin, literal food truck. Taco Salpaster tonight grease everywhere. Luke, she's X number two for damn good reasons, sure. But Rick's my boss, pays my bills, and she shows up unannounced, says she's just saying hi. Then I hear the rustling behind the prep station.
 LUKE: Do you think there's actually something going on there, or was she just trying to get under your skin because she knew you'd see?
 WENDELL: Something's going on, Lou. Luke? They've been texting for weeks. Saw it on her phone last month when she left it in my truck. Rick's got that thing I like, she wrote to a friend. And tonight, she whispers, missed you, big guy, right before I ram the corner.
 LUKE: Well, it sounds like maybe you're not quite over the woman yet. And you're divorced. She's free to date whoever she wants. And so is Rick. Then it seems like there's nothing you can really do about it. You're going to have to just swallow that one and move on with your life.
 WENDELL: Maybe I'm not fully over her, Luke. Fair point. Divorced two years now. But Rick's the one signing my checks. Tomorrow, I got to sling tacos like nothing happened. And her car's been at his place twice last week. I drove by on my way home from a shift.
 LUKE: Yeah, that's unpleasant, and it sucks to go through it. But there's not much you can do because they're both free people, and if that's what they want to do, there's nothing you can do to stop them. You can maybe talk to Rick at your boss, let them know that it's a little uncomfortable comfortable for him to be fucking around with your ex-wife in front of you and maybe ask him to be a little more respectful about that, or you can find yourself a new job and a new boss and a new woman and maybe do it to somebody else.
 WENDELL: Talking to Rick crossed my mind, Luke. He's decent otherwise. Let's me off early for dust storms. He even covered my truck insurance last year after hail. But yeah, respectful might go over like a lead here in the boot heel.
 LUKE: Well, you're going to have to do one thing or the other, either get over it and deal with it or move on and put yourself in an environment where you don't have to deal with it. There's really no other way, I mean, except talking to Rick, which it sounds like he's your boss. He's signing your checks, as you've mentioned a few times. He continues to do that, so it hasn't been a problem. If you're concerned that maybe the wife will put something in his ear to fuck with you, and he's the type of person that might do that to impress her, then maybe you should bring that to HR and have him talk to that way. But I think you can handle this with a man-to-man conversation because any man would understand that that's fucked up and it's not cool to do somebody. So he might not think, maybe he doesn't even know that she's your ex-wife, but he might not think that they're out in the open. He might think he's hiding it better than he is. So you let him know not and see how he responds. And if he responds unfavorably, then find yourself a new taco truck.
 WENDELL: No HR here, Luke. Rick owns the truck outright, runs it solo with me and two-part timers. Man-to-man makes sense.
 LUKE: All right. Well, there you go. You've got yourself a plan. So talk to Rick, man-to-man. Tell him to stop feeling up your ex-wife's taint in front of everybody because that is unprofessional and it's douch-bats and we don't stand for either of those things here at Luke at the Roost. But ladies and gentlemen, it's time for us to take a little pause and listen to this ad from our sponsor. I'm just going to say it. Your penis isn't working. I said it. It's out there now. The word is in the air. We're all adults. Some of us are adults whose penises work and some of us are adults who are listening very carefully right now while pretending to adjust the radio so the person of in the passenger seat doesn't see their face. It's fine. It happens to, and this is the real number, roughly half of all men over 40 at some point. Half. You're not special. You're not broken. You're not the first guy this happened to, and you're not going to be the last. You're just the guy it's happening to right now. And right now you have two options. Option one, do nothing. Keep staring at the ceiling. Keep blaming the altitude, the stress, the medication, the alignment of mercury, the fact that you ate dairy, none of which are the problem. Option two? Sandstone. $45. A doctor who has literally heard everything and will not flinch. Medication that works, a box that reveals nothing, and the ability to walk into your bedroom like a man who handled his business instead of a man who's about to suggest watching another episode or something. Sandstone, I said the word. You heard the word. Now go to the website. All right. Thank you to Sandstone for their support of this show. And here he is. Here's the guy we've been waiting for for a week now. Silas, Silas, you're calling back in. Welcome to the show. What's tickling your tainer? Who's tainer you tickling tonight? What's going on down there at the old Wellspring?
 SILAS: Hey, Luke. Brother, Marcus rolled up to the gate this morning. Once back in after that note he left. But the more I think about it, something about it, just doesn't sit right.
 LUKE: Yeah, you've been back and forth enough with this Marcus character. It's time to, uh, it's time to let him go. I think you got to tell him now you can't come back, uh, third time and you're out. And, uh, and he's definitely had enough chances. And you don't feel good about it. Your, your wife doesn't feel good about it. It's, it's time to just deny him entry.
 SILAS: I hear you, Luke. Third time's no charm on this one. Teresa's been clear. She doesn't want him around those shared nights anymore.
 LUKE: Yeah, I mean, you tried to help the guy out. You looked at yourself and you saw where maybe you had a part and everything to play. He doesn't want to be there. And he's going to dick around and keep saying, I want to come back. I don't want to be there. It's because of my girlfriend.
 AALIYAH: Hey, Luke. Remember that roommate with the adult baby fetish? He just proposed we do a play date together. I about fell over.
 LUKE: Yeah, I assume you said no, or has he worked on you a little bit? Have you reconsidered your stance on the adult baby play? Because the last time you called in, you weren't into it at all. And my advice was to tell him that. And it sounds like you did tell him that. And if he's still pushing on on you, that's a problem. And it's time for a new roommate.
 AALIYAH: Oh yeah, I shut that down flat. No play date. No way. Right. But here's the thing, Luke. He didn't back off. He said it'd be fun for both of us. I left a whole diaper on the kitchen counter this morning.
 LUKE: Yeah, it's not cool. Time to get a new roommate or kick him out or you were looking at other places to move to. And this dude is a creep and you don't need that in your life. Was the diaper clean, I hope?
 AALIYAH: Yeah, clean as far as I could tell. Thank God. But leaving it right by the coffee pot, come on. I've been scouting apartments over in Clayton.
 LUKE: Adult baby slash diaper lover forums actually have extensive advice sections on how to responsibly manage their fetish in shared living situations.
 LUKE: Often emphasizing, communication and respecting boundaries. Yeah, this guy's not respecting your boundaries. You've made your boundaries clear and it's obvious that he's going to keep pushing. So, uh, good luck on finding yourself a new apartment because that's the right answer here.
 CALLER: Thanks, Luke. Yeah, new place it is. Appreciate it. Take care.
 LUKE: Yeah, you too. Good luck with the, uh, the diapers and all that. It sounds like something I don't want to deal with. So I'm glad I don't have to. And next up, we're going to take one more call. caller here we've got Terry, Terry, you're going to be our last call of the night. So what's going on with your tape? What's itching you?
 TERRY: Luke, my man Jesse, works nights at the slaughterhouse in Clayton, comes dragging in at dawn reeking of blood, and cow guts. I fire up the bakery right after, and that stench seeps into everything, ruins the whole damn batch.
 LUKE: Is that just your opinion because you can smell it? It's in your nose? Or is that, are you hearing that from your customers?
 TERRY: anybody really wants a pastry that smells like cow guts and blood. No, Luke, customers bail fast. Yesterday, Mrs. Garcia wrinkles her nose at the cinnamon rolls and says, smells like the stockyards exploded in here. Turns around, walks out. I'm losing money, hand over fist.
 LUKE: Yeah, I just looked it up, and apparently it's a pretty common issue for slaughterhouse odors to impact nearby businesses. With some places, even having official odor complaints Child Bys schools and homes. Okay, well, what's his hygiene situation? I mean, obviously he's going to do what he has to do for work, but could he, you know, go straight to the shower when he gets home and get rid of the clothes or leave the clothes in a smell-proof bag or something like that? There must be some way to work around this. What are other people that are in the butchery business do?
 TERRY: He strips in the garage, jumps straight in the shower. But those work clothes? He dumps him right in the laundry room hamper.
 LUKE: Okay, well, I mean, that problem's solved. You put a hamper in the garage for him to put his clothes in. And if you really have to, if it's affecting your business, then don't even bring them in the house ever. Make him take them to a laundromat or move your washer and dryer into the garage.
 TERRY: Tried it, Luke. Hamper's in the garage six months now.
 DEVIN: It sounds like he needs to immediately soak those clothes in a separate bin with some vinegar or baking soda solution before they even hit the hamper because the smell can really permeate fabrics.
 LUKE: There you go. Have you tried that? Have you tried having him soak the clothes in some sort of a chemical solution or even just vinegar like Devin suggests?
 TERRY: Vinegar soak. Tried it for weeks. Clothes come out like pickled ass.
 LUKE: One doesn't sound very pleasant at all. I don't want a pickled ass pastry. Pickled ass pastries. The next house thing in New Mexico. I don't know. I don't know what to tell you there, but I know that this must be a solution that's been solved by other people in his industry because it seems to be a real thing, the smell permeating and causing issues. But I've never noticed anybody, even a butcher, that has a strong smell like that.
 TERRY: Luke Butchers reek all day. Grew up next to one in Tukumkari. Couldn't eat steak for years. We've hit laundromat twice a week. And enzyme sprays, the works.
 LUKE: Well, there's got to be something. I don't know what it is, but I'm sure that you could do some research, and burn his fucking clothes. Get him burner clothes. So maybe he's got to change his Haynes T-shirt every day. Don't they wear protective gear? Butchers, don't they have like a butcher's, uh, apron type situation to get all that?
 TERRY: Luke, aprons and gloves. Standard issue.
 LUKE: Okay. So you got this guy, he comes home, he strips his clothes off in the garage, he puts them in the hamper, they never enter the house, and then you spray him down with enzyme sprays and he takes his shower. There's not too much more you can ask of this guy. He seems to be doing everything that he can to make the situation as minimal as possible. We do need butchers, and that is his profession. So it might just be something that you've got to deal with. Maybe there's something on your end that you can do a diod in the bakery or a hepa filter or something like that? Have you tried attacking it from the other direction?
 TERRY: Hepa filters? Two of them, 500 bucks last month.
 LUKE: Okay, well, how about an ozone generator? That should take care of the situation.
 TERRY: Ozone generator ran it overnight once.
 LUKE: Maybe once isn't enough. Well, I don't know what to tell you, because these are all the ideas that I have. So, I mean, you can either get rid of the dude because he smells, bad because he's working to pay the bills. Or you can, you know, triple up on your hepa filters, even though they're expensive. Or you can find yourself another profession.
 TERRY: Dump Jesse? That's your fix. We've been together 12 years, Luke.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, I just gave you six other fixes that you shot down because you apparently tried them all. I don't know what the answer is here. I'm not a fucking chemist. Maybe you got to go to the base bakery school or a butchery school and figure out what butchers do to take care of this situation. I'm not an expert in rotting meat stink.
 TERRY: Every butcher forum, Luke. Same complaint. Wives dumping loads at coin ops or divorcing. Sales tanked 40% since wind shifted.
 LUKE: I find it hard to believe that there's no commercial product that takes care of this situation. It seems like sense is something that we as society have got pretty well figured out. I mean, you can soak this guy in essential oils if you have to wash him down in vinegar. Whatever it is that people do, somebody's got this figured out.
 TERRY: Essential oils, tried lavender, eucalyptus. Now bakery reeks like a dead potpourri shop.
 LUKE: Well, which one of these businesses generates more income for your household? Is it the bakery or is it the butchery?
 TERRY: Bakery used to out-earn his shop two to one. Now, butchery's 70% percent of our take home.
 LUKE: Well, then you guys need to have that conversation because if you don't want to split up and you can't stand the smell, then maybe it's time for him to come work for you at the bakery or find himself a new career. Because you've got to pick one or the other, it seems like, if none of these products are working for you and you don't want to continue to keep trying forever, if you're losing money and you're making less money than you were before, what did you do before this? What did he do before he was a butcher? Has it been 12 years is of not being able? At some point, this began. What was the precipice for that?
 TERRY: Jesse drove semis nights. Twelve years hauling freight out of Clovis, back gave out two years ago.
 LUKE: His back gave out, so now he's a butcher and he's cutting up cows? That doesn't make any sense. Yeah, it seems like you might be better off if he didn't work at all. So that's also an option. You know, have him a stay-at-home boyfriend or husband or whatever the fuck he is. And he can do the household stuff while you bring in the money and that will double your household income, right? So that seems like a wise choice to me. But just have the talk with him and let him know that this whole butchering thing isn't working out. And you're going to, in support of your business and your household finances, you're going to need them to find some other way to make money.
 TERRY: Stay at home. Jesse laughs at that shit. Pride's killing him slower than the back pain.
 LUKE: Okay, Terry. you obviously are not looking for a solution here. I'm not sure what you're looking for. But it's getting late. So we're going to have to wrap up the show. Is there anything you'd like to tell the audience at home before we hang up?
 TERRY: Butchers wreak forever, Luke. Thanks for the ear.
 LUKE: Yeah, no problem. Butchers wreak forever. That should be the name of the episode. And thanks for calling in.
 LUKE: Sorry we couldn't solve that problem for you, but I don't think you really wanted it to be solved. Or you would have met me halfway. and we could have, we could have workshoped this together. But no, you just wanted to complain. And I suppose that's okay. If you just want to complain, you can call in to Luke at the roost at, I don't think I gave out the number. If you want to give us a call for the next show, the number is 208-439-58-53. That's 208-439 Luke. And let's check in with the Devin. Devin, how do you think the show went tonight? I was pretty annoyed by most of these callers. It was to pull out any sort of information or why they were calling. I'm not sure what was up with that tonight. What did you think of the show?
 DEVIN: Yeah, it was kind of all over the place tonight, wasn't it? Like, the butcher shop smell guy had me hooked for a second. I mean, who doesn't love a good, gross out story? But yeah, a lot of them just rambled without landing the punch. Still, I don't know, I thought the trucker call was solid. That back pain stuff hits close to home since my uncle drove semis and ended up with the same issues. Anyway, we got through it. Right? You kept it moving better than I could have.
 LUKE: Well, yeah, I'm a goddamn professional, and that's what I do. We keep this show moving. And on the air, we don't do dead air here at Look at the Roost. So what do you think we should talk about tomorrow? Devin, you got any ideas for tomorrow's show?
 DEVIN: Yeah, no dead air. That's the rule. For tomorrow, maybe we do something on weird dreams people have had lately. Like, callers share their craziest ones, and we try to figure out what they mean, or if they're just from bad takeout. or local stuff, like the best hole-in-the-wall spots in Deming or Clovis that nobody talks about. I could pull up some reviews ahead of time. That trucker vibe got me thinking road stories could work too, but less back pain, more like ghost trucks. Or something spooky on the highway.
 LUKE: All right, I see where you're going on that. We already did dreams. We can't do dreams again. Not this soon anyway. Not without some more specifics for those dreams, you know? Just general dreams. It's interesting, but we need some variety. I like the idea of your road stories. We haven't done road stories and ghost trucks is interesting. There was that one caller a while back that thought that the aliens were following her in their F-150s, I think. Yeah, let's go with, tomorrow we'll do road stories. And we'll listen to stories that people have from the road. Way of the road, bud. It's the way of the road.
 DEVIN: Yeah, road stories sounds perfect. Way better than rehashing dreams. I remember that. That alien F-150 lady, she was convinced they were tailgating her on 70. Cool if I dig up a couple New Mexico highway legends beforehand, like the Phantom Trucker on 285, or whatever. My civics seen some weird stuff out there, too, but nothing ghostly yet.
 LUKE: All right, well, it sounds like a plan to me. And thanks to all you listeners for another great episode of Luke at the Roost. Give us a call back tomorrow when we'll be taking calls and talking about people's road stories. a story from the road, you can give us a call tomorrow or send us an email at submissions at look at the roost.com. With that, we're going to sign off and say good night.
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 LUKE: All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. This is Luke. I'm your host of tonight's episode of Luke at the Roost, the late-night call-in radio show where you can call in and tell me what's going on in your life, and I'll give you the very best advice that I can. If you'd like to give us a call, the number here is 208-439-58-5-8-3. That's 208-4-39 Luke. If you can't get to a telephone or, or you don't feel comfortable on the phone or whatever, you can send us an email, too. And if it's funny or poignant enough, we might read it on the air. So if you'd like to send us an email, the address is submissions at Luke at theroose.com. So let's check in with our trusty, nerdy sidekick here, Devin. Devin, how are you doing tonight? Are you ready for our Road Stories show today?
 DEVIN: I'm doing pretty good, actually, Luke. Had this dream last night about driving across the country in a van made of old cassette tape. So road stories feel kind of prophetic today. Yeah, totally ready. I pulled up a bunch of weird highway facts earlier just in case. What's the first caller got?
 LUKE: I don't know. We haven't, we haven't checked in without first call yet. First, we're going to talk about our road stories. I mean, I certainly have a lot of them, but what about you? Have you ever been out on the road for any extended length of time? You ever travel the country or do the RV thing or or hitchhike across America? Anything fun like that?
 DEVIN: Yeah. Last summer, I drove my Civic from Deming all the way to Vegas. And back in like 48 hours, just to see this girl I met online, check engine light blinking the whole time like it was mocking me. We ended up breaking down in the middle of nowhere, Arizona, spent the night in a ditch arguing about whether scorpions could sense fear, which, ironically, they probably could because I was terrified. Nothing as epic as hitchhiking, though, unless you count the time I thumbed a ride with that guy who turned out to be a taxidermist hauling roadkill. Anyway, you got a collar queued up?
 LUKE: Jesus, Devon, you're trying to push me to the collars already. I'm not ready. We're discussing you and I about road stories. Road stories, sir. So I don't know what's up with you in the taxidermists. It seems to be a recurring theme in your life. Do you have some sort of weird attraction to taxidermists?
 DEVIN: No attraction per se, Luke. It's just bad luck or something. Like I put out this weird hitchhiking vibe that attracts the strangest people. That taxidermist guy was actually super nice, gave me a stuffed squirrel as a thank you gift, which I still have on my dashboard staring at me every morning. Kind of makes me think about mortality every time I drive. But anyway, road stories from callers are going to top that, right? You want me to pull up some Route 66 trivia or something while we wait?
 LUKE: No, I hate Route 66. It's the worst road in America. You want to know why? I've been there a bunch of times. I actually owned some land out in Holbrook, Arizona, which is right on the old Route 66. But that particular road, really, I even made videos about it. That road pisses me off because everywhere that Route 66 used to go, every road around there has the Route 66 signs. Like, it's all they have left is the memory, the ghost of Roots of Route 66. And it's diluted it so much that you don't even know what road it was because all the little side roads have Route 66 and all the businesses are the Route 66 whatever. It's just, it's impossible to, uh, to trace the old historic Route 66. It's going through the national parks. It's going through the towns. It's every single little side road. I mean, it's just obnoxious. So that pisses me off. And then you get up to, uh, uh, Winslow, Arizona, you know, and stand out on the corner there and they get the big Route 66 painted in the center of the road and the statues of the fucking, I fucking hate the Eagles, but they're always playing that side. It's awful. It's just so kitschy and forced. And all the little shops, they got to sell their fucking Route 66 postcards. Jesus Christ. It was one road. It was the mother road. It was only one road. They can't all be Route 66. It really pisses me off.
 DEVIN: Yeah, I get that. The whole thing's turned into this tourist trap zombie where every gas station claims it's the real deal. Holbrook's got that wigwam motel, though, right? I drove past there once on the way from that Vegas trip, thought about stopping. But my Czech engine light was flashing like a rave, and I figured the stuffed squirrels in the lobby would judge me harder than the one on my dash. Kind of sad how it's all faded glory now. You ever think about developing that land into something anti-rout 66, like a no-kitch zone?
 LUKE: Actually, yes, I have. So the land that I have, it butts up against the petrified forest National Park. So it's all that chin-lay crazy formation. And half of it's just flatland and half of it is Martian-looking land. And down the road, a piece of you can call it a road, down the dirt path a while, there's a cult-like community of cosplayers called Uranium Springs. And they all have their structures built out there in the middle of the desert, and they blow up cars. And you can't go there unless you're dressed up all Mad Max style. And they have huge parties. girls in cages. And it's this whole event out there. And they're my neighbors. So I was thinking I would set up my own cult out there on Route 66. I got to talk to Silas about this and get some tips. But I would set up my own as a rival group to Uranium Springs. And that way we could have a rivalry. You know, we could set up booby traps around our prospective perimeters and do covert and pillage the other group. I think it could be great. What do you think?
 DEVIN: That sounds epic, Luke, like the desert's finally getting the post-apocalyptic showdown it deserves. Uranium Springs, with the Mad Max parties and cage dancers, your rival cult could be the anti-kitch saviors, booby traps made from petrified wood. And old wigwam motel scraps, rating them for supplies while blasting something that drowns out the eagles. I'd volunteer to infiltrate as a double agent, ironically blending right in since I already looked like I crawled out of a dystopian fanfic. You got a name for it yet?
 LUKE: No, no name for it yet. See, the problem is the road to get there is very difficult. I wouldn't bring my RV out there because it's just bumpy. And one of the times I went out there, it was so full of tumbleweeds that I had to, like, go around the road. Like, you need to bring a shovel to get down the road because the tumbleweeds just pile up against people's fences, and it's very hard to traverse. So before I could turn it into anything real, I'd have to do something about that road. So I don't know if you know anybody that's got a scraper or a grater that we could fix this road. And I really wanted to get like a backhoe out there and dig it up and put a bunch of shipping containers under the ground and have it like fallout bunkers. And then that way we could just have like a periscope checking out for the uranium springs goons. And if we see any of them, we can, I don't know, launch water balloons or petrified wood balloons at them.
 DEVIN: Oh, man. Tumbleweeds piling up like that sounds straight out of a spaghetti Western gone wrong. I've shoveled my fair share out of the way on back roads near Deming. But yeah, you'd need a real greater for that stretch. Maybe rent one from a place like United Rentals in Holbrook. The bunker idea is genius, though, periscope spying on the Uranium Springs crew while you're lobbing petrified wood. Call it tumbleweed resistance or something with the road as your first moat. I'd help dig if you get the backhoe. Reminds me of that time I buried a time capsule in the desert with my ex that we never dug up. Probably still out there judging us.
 LUKE: Yeah, man, that Uranium Springs place is cool. I went out there and took pictures of it.
 LUKE: The Reverend, I forget his name, but he calls himself Reverend that runs the place. He let us go out there and take pictures of it. And it's pretty massive. I mean, they actually have brought, they built tools out there. So they've got cranes and engineers. I mean, most of the people that are doing this that are cosplaying, they are engineers. And this is what they do on their time off. So on the weekends, they go down there and they work on their weekends. little hovels, their structures, and they have this big outdoor rec room. That's where the cages are for the girls. And it's just, it does look Mad Max, and they take it very seriously. Once a year they have a big party out there. I think it's in June or July called detonation. And it's like a week-long burning man type situation. Maybe we should go this year. What do you think?
 CALLER: Oh, man, detonation week sounds like the kind of chaos I'd thrive in. Mad Max engineers with cranes. And a wreck room full of. of cages. Sign me up, Luke. I'd go full scavenger mode with a backpack full of petrified wood props. And my dashboard squirrel riding shotgun. We could crash it incognito first. Scope out the reverence setup for your rival cult intel. You think they'd let radio weirdos in? Or do we need costumes right away?
 LUKE: Oh, no, we would need costumes right away. I don't think they let you in if you're not in costume. You have to be fully in the Mad Max world to enter Uranium Springs during their events. I mean, they'll let you go check out the place in place. clothes on a normal day when nobody's there. But if they're doing something, they want it to be authentic feeling. And they're like going, they got flame throwers out there. They're blowing up cars. It's the whole deal. How many dancing girls in cages do you think I could trade you for? Like if we had to, if just hypothetically, if I had to make a deal, what do you think you would be worth to them?
 CALLER: Oh man, trading me for dancing girls? I probably fetch like half a cage at best, Luke. Maybe the ones with the ones with, the rusty outfits nobody wants, since I just stand there awkwardly critiquing their flamethrower technique until they regret it. Ironically, that reminds me of the time I bartered my way out of a bad camping trip by offering up my sleeping bag to some off-grid survivalists who turned out to be into interpretive dance. They took it and let me hitchhike away with nothing but regrets. We could practice our values beforehand, though, like dress me up as Mad Max Road Killbait and see what the Reverend counters with.
 LUKE: I don't know if roadkill bait is really what they're looking for. They're just looking for a nice, supple little twink like you.
 CALLER: A supple twink, Luke, that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me. Kind of makes up for that time you called me the human equivalent of a participation trophy. I'd probably go for a full cage if I learned some flamethrower tricks first, or at least distract them long enough for you to raid their cranes. We should hit up a thrift store for costumes, though. Turn me into prime Mad Max bait and see if the Reverend bites.
 LUKE: All right. Well, let's think about that for this year. And I got lots of road stories. Maybe we'll get to some of them, but this is a caller show. So we're going to take some of these calls and see what people's stories from the road are. Let's see. First up, we've got Clarence. Clarence, welcome to the show. Are you ready to tell us some of your best road stories?
 CLARENCE: Yeah, Luke. Saturday morning, Randy texts me a screenshot of my 19-year-old daughter, Bucknaked, on some website. Says he thought I should know. We're parked on a dirt track off Highway 8. fresh of dropping clients. Now, I got two fires and no water.
 LUKE: All right. I don't see how that's a road story, but I'm pretty sure if you have those pictures, send them over to us and we'll investigate and make sure that they're authentic. You don't want to get faked out. You don't want you to buy fake images of naked girls. So send them to submissions at lukeatshorus.com. And we'll give them the once over and make sure that everything's on the up and up, okay?
 CLARENCE: No, Luke. I'm not sending pictures of my daughter to anywhere. This was a group text. Randy looped in two other outfitters. Now the whole crew knows before I do.
 LUKE: Yeah, but don't you want to certify the authenticity of the images? What website are they on? And I'll just look them up myself.
 CLARENCE: No, Luke. I'm not giving out the website name on air. It's one of those subscription sites. I checked it myself after the text. She's got months of posts up there.
 LUKE: So is it like OnlyFans or like Arrow.me? One of those sites or is it a more traditional porn hub type site? What's going on in the images? Can you describe the images to us?
 CLARENCE: Like OnlyFans. Paid to see four sets. She's in the back room I fixed up for her. On that twin bed, lights everywhere. Naked spreads, using props.
 LUKE: What kind of props is she using in these images?
 CLARENCE: Vibrators. Dildoes from some online shop. One time, my old shotgun cleaning rod. Jesus. All on that bed spread, I bought her last Christmas. Found the ringlight yesterday. Tucked behind the water heater. Thought it was for her sewing projects.
 LUKE: Well, it's for her projects, all right? At least she was just using the cleaning rod. I mean, that sounds pokey. At least she was using the cleaning rod and not the shotgun itself. Are there anywhere she's using the shotgun itself? Because those would be interesting.
 CLARENCE: No, Luke. Nothing with the shotgun. shotgun. This ain't funny. Randy texts that grug Saturday morning.
 LUKE: Yeah, no, I don't think it's funny at all. I mean, I feel for you here. This is a serious thing. You see pictures of your young, attractive, I assume, 19-year-old daughter, buck naked, playing with herself with a variety of props and tools from around your household that's got to get to you a little bit, I would assume. We're just trying to get a full picture of what's going on. Because I want to, I want to truly. understand how you're feeling in this moment.
 CLARENCE: Yeah, it does. Been running it three ways in my head since Saturday. Confront her. Confront Randy or drive to a therapist over in Arizona where nobody knows me. Randy's the one who hits send first.
 LUKE: Well, could you maybe send me Randy's email address? And I'll reach out to him directly for the images. Who is this Randy guy that you keep talking about? That's kind of messed up that he would send a group text of your daughter, to what, your outfitters club, hunters and stuff? That seems like not a very friendly type thing to do.
 CLARENCE: No, Luke, not giving out Randy's email. He's my spotter on most hunts, 20 years together. Sent that text to the group on purpose, not concerned.
 LUKE: Well, you know, maybe he was just trying to help out a little bit. Bump up her numbers, right? Because this is a for-profit operation, I assume. So the more people that are viewing the images, the more, the more financial return she's going to get from it. So I would think that you want her to be successful in this new business endeavor.
 CLARENCE: No, Luke. Randy wasn't helping. He sent it to establish leverage. 20 years spotting for me.
 LUKE: Leverage for what? You think he doesn't want to be the spotter anymore? Does he want, like, what is he trying to get over you that he would use pictures of your daughter for? That's pretty dark stuff. I mean, that's not the type of person that you would trust. to spot for you, I would assume.
 CLARENCE: Leverage like favors on hunts. Better stands. My truck when he breaks down. Seen it play out before with other crews. Tomorrow morning, first coffee at the outfitter. If those two guys act normal, maybe it dies quiet.
 LUKE: Well, that's not a very good use of the leverage. He's already played his hand. He already sent out the text to everybody. So what's he going to use now? It's not like he could blackmail you. He can't say, if you don't give me your truck tomorrow, then I'm going to show everybody these pictures of your daughter.
 TERRY: Yeah, Luke, spot on. The spaghetti sauce shield, but make it skin-tight latex that shines under the kitchen light. Kinky has hair. Hell. Full stop. Started when my long-distance boyfriend Marcus sent a goofy Halloween pick of himself in latex eight months back.
 LUKE: Like, it's already been sent out. I still think you should send us the pictures for verification, because it doesn't sound like these could be AI images. And Devin is actually an expert in identifying AI images. So if you can send them to us at the studio, Submissions at Lukeattheroose.com, we'll be happy to take a look and let you know for sure if those are real pictures or if they were altered in some way.
 CLARENCE: No, Luke. Still not sending pictures. Leverage ain't one text. It's the door he kicked open.
 LUKE: I don't understand. What door did he kick open by sending this text?
 CLARENCE: The door to every coffee break, every hunt debrief, he text the group first. Now he decides when it comes up. In front of clients.
 LUKE: Wait, you're showing the images to your clients now? No, this doesn't make any sense to me. It's just a group text. If he's texting everybody first, that's because he's just doing it first. You can beat him to the punch. You could take some naked pictures of yourself and send them to the group, and you could cut him off before he can find those pictures and use them to get leverage over you.
 CLARENCE: No, Luke, not sending naked pictures of myself. That's insane. Doors open now. He brings it up first at coffee. Sets the tone.
 LUKE: Well, you set the tone. I mean, you have control over what happens. So get to coffee early before everybody else shows up and then before he has a chance to say anything, get in front of it. Jump in front of it and take your clothes off.
 CLARENCE: No, Luke, not taking my clothes off at coffee. That's nuts. Guys like Randy turns silence into stories. He jokes once, it spreads to every leaseholder by noon.
 LUKE: Okay, so you got the latex bug and you're buying different latex suits from China for $13 on Timu. And your 14-year-old daughter has noticed this, and she knows what that means?
 CALLER: She understands the kink aspect to it. Not cheap Tammu suits, Luke, specialty site, apron and gloves, $94 bucks total, half checked out. Brianna screenshot the whole cart to her phone. I spotted it borrowing hers for my dead battery. She's 14. So who knows what she makes of it? But that silence is killer.
 LUKE: I wouldn't worry too much about it. You can just say that's your Halloween costume. Who cares? It's just a... It's a costume. There's nothing wrong with prop costumes. Maybe you're into cosplay or what you do and how you dress is your own thing. And that's not her business. So who cares if she makes fun of it? Whatever. crazy women's clothing before on the internet, I'm sure.
 CALLER: Easy for you to say, Luke, but I'm a social worker. 20 years watching parents lose all leverage over their kids in one weaponized secret. Brianna drops that screenshot mid-curfew blow-up, and poof, my authority is dust. She knows exactly how to twist it. I've seen it play out.
 LUKE: I don't think so. I don't think there's enough there to use for any sort of real leverage. I mean, it's smart of her to try, but it's just a, I'm just a... a latex suit. I mean, you could have been buying that for any reason. It could have been a gift. And, I mean, there's no proof that you weren't wearing it and, like, taking pictures of yourself and sending them to some dude. Even if that was your intention, that's not what she caught you doing. She just saw something in your shopping cart, which is, I mean, that could be anything. You didn't even necessarily do that, you know? Some fucking Claudebot could have done that on your computer for all she knows. So that's not a proof type thing. I don't think that's the type of thing she could show to a social work. and make any sort of significant claim, you can buy whatever you want. You weren't doing anything weird in it. It's just a piece of clothing.
 CALLER: Luke, kids her age, don't need coat-proof. They need embarrassing dirt, and that screenshots a nuke. She's scrolled TikTok kinks since 12. Knows exactly what shiny apron plus gloves screams. I obliquely spilled advice to a client last month on kink shame. Nailed my own mess so hard I hid in the bathroom four minutes after.
 LUKE: Well, you know, you've got to own your stuff, right? You have to be confident enough in yourself and what you're into and not let things like that bother you. Who cares if she knows? And, I mean, your authority doesn't come from whether or not she has any dirt on you. That's a very weak way to live your life. You're, I mean, first of all, she's 14 years old. You have no authority. She's a teenager. She's not going to listen to anything you say, no matter what. And that's the way it is at this point in her life. But I don't think you need to be ashamed or of of her pulling out this screenshot of your latex in any argument or anything like that. Even if she didn't have the screenshot, if this never happened, she'd find some other reason. And you're still her mother. She still lives in your house. So whatever level of authority you have is what you have, regardless of the information that she has about you.
 CALLER: Own it, sure, Luke, but confidence crumbles when your jobs dissecting secrets daily. Social workers enforce normal sexuality. toughest, flagging every obsession as compulsion. Big miss. Stuff consumes you, cause it's a problem, or cause you've starved it out forever. We screw that up, me included till now.
 LUKE: Well, I mean, you don't have to worry about what social workers think about you. You work as a social worker, and that is your job, but this is not an important part of it. It actually has nothing to do with it. So regardless of how latex has looked at in the social worker community, what I said earlier I mean, if you're into latex stuff, that's a harmless thing. There's no reason that you can't wear whatever you want to wear that makes you feel good and sexy. That could be thongs or bathing suits or latex or whatever the fuck you want. And nobody can give you any shit about that because that's what agency and being a human being is. If that makes you feel good, if you like doing that and that's what you want to spend your money on, go ahead. And if anybody has a problem with that, tell them to go fuck that. themselves, social worker, daughter, or anybody else. There's no other answer because this is your life and you get to do what makes you happy.
 CALLER: Fair point, Luke, agency rules, pongs, latex, sky's the limit if it lights you up. But Marcus, that boyfriend who sparked it with his Halloween pick, long-distance train wreck already, him in Arizona, me chasing chickens in the boot heel wind.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, that's all right. At least you got something out of it. You learn that you're into the latex. It makes you feel good about yourself. So I would consider this whole story, a great success story. And you've learned something interesting about yourself that makes you happy. And my advice to you is just don't be so afraid of everybody and everything, finding out your dirty secrets, because they're not that dirty, and it doesn't really matter. And this is not the type of thing that you wouldn't see on cable television. So it's not like you were doing some weird, creepy, scary stuff that is a problem. You're just wearing clothes you like. And maybe they're sexy clothes? Depends on who's looking, right? The beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say. But we're going to have to move on to a word from our sponsors. We're contractually obligated to listen to our sponsors every once in a while. So I'm going to have to let you go. But is there anything else you'd like to say in closing before I do that?
 CALLER: Nah, Luke, you nailed the agency angle. Thanks for the kick in the pants. Catch you later.
 LUKE: There's a kick in the apron for you. Yeah, and that goes for everybody out there. If you're into something, don't feel weird about it. Who cares? I mean, that's the type of stuff that makes you unique and individual, and that's what you should embrace. And if anybody wants to laugh at you for it, laugh back at them for being boring. That's what I say. And with that, ladies and gentlemen, it's time for a word from our sponsors. This episode is sponsored by Shoe Spray Co. It's the spray you use in rental bowling shoes, because bowling is a game, but these shoes are gross. Let's be honest. Those shoes aren't dirty. They're used. They've had shifts. They've been through birthdays, work parties, and at least one guy who insists he's actually really good at this. Shoespray Code doesn't promise fresh linen or spring rain. Nobody believes that. No one wants to be lied to while lacing up rental shoes. Shoospray Code just handles the situation. It makes them tolerable enough that you can focus on the important part, pretending you're not competitive and then getting mad anyway. Use code strike at shoe spray co. For 15% off. Shoe Spray Co. Reality-based footwear management. All right. Thanks to Shoe Spray Co. for sponsoring this episode. Next up on our color line, we've got, who do we have here? I don't even know who we've got. All right, we've got Yolanda. Yolanda, Yolanda, thanks for calling the show. Do you have any road stories for us today? Today's theme, today's topic is supposed to be about road stories, and it seems to just be about people's teenage kids being assholes. And hopefully we would not go in that direction. So let us know if you've got any good road stories for us.
 YOLANDA: Luke, I just discovered my life coach's certification is a $49 two-day online course. I could have done on my lunch break, and I've paid her $2,000 bucks already. I'm a 911 dispatcher, so I know real credentials when I see him. And this woman down in Clayton has been charged.
 LUKE: Yeah, you too. Thank you, Yolanda. A piece of shit. Okay. Well, that was a fun one. Next up we've got Mo. Mo, welcome to the show. How can we help you today? What's going on in your life? Uh, what, what sort of advice are you looking for from wisdom generator like myself?
 MO: Luke, that Yolanda call got me going. You were dead right calling her evil for gaming her boyfriend like that. See, I'm a corrections officer down here in the boot heel. And I just watched this woman in a clean three spots at the Deming Walmart, drove off like she owned the place.
 LUKE: Jesus Christ, where's up with these people? We're trying to talk about road stories and they want to talk about shopping cards. I don't understand. Why is it like this? Why is it like this?
 DEVIN: Devin, why are we getting all these calls tonight from people that are just fucking morons? I don't understand it. We're trying to talk about road stories. And none of them will give me any goddamn road stories. Oh, Jesus. What do we do? maybe it's the full moon or something pulling in the weirdos tonight. We could try throwing out a super specific prompt like worst road rage you've seen to filter out the randos. Or, yeah, that one time I drove my Civic all the way to Albuquerque with the check engine light blinking like a rave. And no AC, people kept trying to race me, but I just waved him past.
 LUKE: Yeah, we'll just see what's next with the callers because they have more interesting stories than you do, Devin. So next up we've got Lori. Lori, thanks for calling in. What's going on in your life? life today. Do you have a road story for us? A road story, let me just set the scene for you. A road story is a story where you're in a vehicle, potentially on a road. It's you're moving somewhere for some reason. It's usually a long trip. Sometimes they call it a road trip. And things happen along the way on the road. You run into interesting characters or you have obstacles that happen, tires slashed or brake or whatever. Your fuel pump falls out in the winter? Anything could go wrong. Do you have a road story for us, Lori? Please tell me that you have a goddamn road story.
 LORI: Well, Luke, I'm standing outside the feed store in Arnie Mars right now. And three weeks ago, I drove up to Albuquerque to tell my best friend her husband's cheating on her. Does that count as a road story?
 LUKE: Yeah, I suppose it could. Tell us about the trip.
 LORI: Drove three hours each way on a Saturday, left at dawn, because I kept thinking about what I'd seen.
 LORI
 Dale at the Deming Walmart, with that woman from the bookkeeping place over in Lordsburg, been doing business with her for years. They're standing by the pharmacy. She's laughing. He's got his hand on the small of her back like they've done this a hundred times. I sat in my car for 20 minutes, watching them. Then I went home and printed every transaction from the last six months, where their names appeared together on vendor lists. I'm an accountant, Luke.
 LUKE
 All right, well, it sounds like you really cracked the case here, detective. And how did your friend take the news when you injected yourself into her life and decided to blow up her husband's spot?
 LORI
 She stared at me like I'd slapped her, didn't say a word for maybe 30 seconds. Then she goes, Dale would never. Just like that. Dale would never. I laid out the receipts, the dates, the Walmart citing. She looked right through me and said, you always did think you were better than us. Packed up my papers, handed them back like they were dirty. I drove home in the dark with dust blowing across the highway. Spring wind season starting early. That was three weeks ago Monday.
 LUKE
 Okay. Well, I mean, what did you really expect? It was not your place to do that. It was not your place to go investigating somebody else's life. And you did, and she doesn't want to believe you. She's not ready to believe you. Maybe she does believe you, and she just doesn't want to admit that to herself. Either way, it was not your place to do what you did, and you got the response you deserved.
 LORI
 Luke, I keep going over that in my head. Maybe I should have stayed quiet. But here's what keeps sticking. Three days later, Dale called me himself, said I was projecting because my own marriage hit Rocks six years back. He had it all ready to say, like he rehearsed it. That scared me more than anything. How prepared he was to turn it around on me.
 LUKE
 Well, you know, it's not your business. And you got involved in his life and went directly to his wife. You drove three hours to blow up his spot. course he's going to be a little bit upset about that. And you don't know the circumstances of what's going on here. And it's really not your place to be looking into this at all. So lick your wounds and move on with your life and leave other people alone. Because this is not your job. And nobody needs you to play. What is it? Personal Detective? What are those detectives that you get? Like in the film noir movies? Shit, I can't think. There's a word in front of... detective. Hmm. Private detective. Yeah, you're not a private detective. You're an accountant. So go back to watching Netflix and work on your own life and worry about your own stuff. And leave the investigations to the professionals.
 LORI
 Maybe you're right, Luke. I keep thinking about that Saturday drive, though. Sun coming up over the Chirikawas. Me telling myself I was being a good friend. But last week, Lena texted me once, not to talk about Dale. Just to say, Please don't tell the women from our old church group. That's when it hit me. She knows.
 LUKE
 Yeah, she probably does know. She's probably known for a long time. Maybe they have an open arrangement, and you don't know. And that's why it's not your place to get involved. So you didn't do this to be a good friend, and you know that too. You did this to be right. You did this to be the detective. You did this to find the scoop and break the story. You did this for yourself, not for your friend. And you deserve the animosity you're getting back from them for. it. So don't do it anymore. And just pay attention to your own life. Leave other people alone and let them do their thing, okay?
 LORI
 Luke, I keep hearing that. That I just wanted to be right. But I keep thinking about this. When you tell someone a hard truth and they punish you for it, that's not the friendship ending. That's the friendship showing what it always was. Folks say, you should have stayed out of it. But all that does is give everyone permission to keep looking the other way forever.
 LUKE
 Yeah, and everybody has the permission to look. the other way. Like I said, they could, between them, have an agreement where he can do that. Maybe she thinks it's hot, and she doesn't want you to know that because she's afraid that you'll think badly of her, or the girls at church will think badly of her. The thing is, you don't know what goes on in other people's lives, and it's not your place to find out. If you felt like you needed to tell her something, you didn't have to drive three hours and bring receipts and make a case out of it. You could have just, you know, handled that in a different way. But you didn't, because you didn't do because you wanted to be a good friend. You did it because you wanted to be a detective. So congratulations on breaking the case. You've done everybody a great service here, and now nobody wants to talk to you.
 LORI
 I hear you, Luke. Maybe I was loud about it because quiet didn't feel like enough. But out here in the boot heel, you lose one friend. You lose the whole circle. There's no replacing that. So, I'm standing by my car with feed store dust in my mouth, wondering if I should have kept my eyes on my own the one who broke everything, while I was just the loudmouth who pointed.
 LUKE
 Yep, and yeah, the answer is yes, you should have kept your mouth shut. And next time you will. And if nobody wants to talk to you now, you know why. Because nobody wants their personal business to be, to be trounced, trounced around like that. You should keep your business to yourself and stay out of other pupils. Next up, before we go on, we're going to have to take a little break for a word from our sponsor. I always forget about the sponsors, but here we go. You ready? Here we go. Born in a secret laboratory, somewhere between New Jersey and the Italian Riviera, Pesto Bismol was accidentally invented when renowned scientist, Professor Luigi, the basel-brain spaghetti, dropped a jar of pesto into a barrel of activated charcoal during a thunderstorm. Lightning struck. The beakers rattled. The lab assistant fled. Smoke cleared, Professor Spaghettiini gazed upon the swirling emerald paste and reportedly said words that would shake the world of digestive science to its very core. Mama mia! I fix it the tummy! And with that completely unverified scientific breakthrough, Pesto Bismol was born. For too long, stomach remedies have been timid. Pink liquids, chalky tablets, medicines that whisper politely to your digestive system. The Pestobismal? Pestobismal? arrives with garlic. Yes, Pesto Bismol blends the bold, aromatic power of basil, garlic, olive oil, and parmesan with the mysterious absorbing capabilities of activated charcoal, the same stuff used in water filters, art class, and occasionally by people who do grilling. The result is a rich, green medicinal paste that coats your stomach with the comforting sensation of what can only be described as aggressive Italian encouragement. Upset's stomach? Acid reflux? Take a spoonful of Pesto Bismol. and let the herbal magic go to work. Pesto Bismol. When your stomach says help, say, mamma mia. Pesto Bismol has not been evaluated by the FDA, the USDA, the Italian government, or anybody's grandmother. Side effects may include green teeth and serious confidence in attracting neighborhood pigeons who believe you might be a breadstick. Okay. All right, let's see who else we got out there on the late night caller line. Looks like next up on our line here, we've got Brandy. Brandy, thanks for calling in. We're trying to talk to people. about road stories, travel stories, and nobody seems to want to do that. How about you? Do you have a road story for us, Brandy? Tell us what happened to you on your last road trip.
 BRANDY
 Road story? Luke, forget the road. I drove two hours up here to these hot springs to think straight because two days back, I ripped up a loose carpet corner in my Alamogordo rental.
 LUKE: And bam, trap door to a dirt-floored room with one wooden chair. smack in the center staring at nothing, that Terry call earlier about her kid finding the shopping cart hit too close. Secrets popping up where you live, right? Right.
 BRANDY: But this one's got me twisted because I didn't call nobody, not the landlord, not the county, Zilch.
 LUKE: Okay, so you found a secret root cellar in your house and there was a chair in there. That's a little bit weird, but it doesn't sound particularly interesting. Interesting. What kind of chair was? Just a wooden kitchen chair? Do you think they did some sort of interrogation down there? Like somebody was tied to the chair? It could be like a weird, creepy sex thing. Your extra little dungeon room? That could be cool. Did you think about using it at all?
 BRANDY: No, Luke. Not some rude seller. This room's dry as a bone. No shelves, no jars. Just that one beat-up straight-back wooden chair dead center like it's waiting for a show. Kitchen chair? Nah. Too. narrow, legs all scarred up with these thin grooves like somebody's cinched rope around them over, and over. Measure them with my thumb, quarter inch wide, interrogation, sex dungeon?! Come on, that's Hollywood crap! But yeah, there's a drag mark in the dirt right in front, shallow groove couple feet long like they hauled something heavy back. And fourth, I ain't using it.
 LUKE: Wow, you sound like a psycho. All right, we're just going to hang up on you, Brandy, because you sound like a nutcase. But I think congratulations on your new chair. That sounds exciting. Next up, we've got Rosalie. Rosalie, thanks for calling in. What's going on in your life today? Anything exciting, interesting? Please tell me you've got something interesting, preferably related to the road. The road is a thing that you see it outside sometimes. It's covered in pavement. It's got lines painted in it depending on where you are. Usually you're in some sort of a vehicle. and you can go on this road type thing faster than you could walk. That's why people use them. Do you have any experience with a road?
 ROSALIE: Luke, Brenda, routed me right past my ex-husband Derek's apartment last Tuesday. The road I never take. Never programmed. Collingwood Avenue. Straight down it at 647 in the evening. I hesitated at the turn, and she says, Clear as day, you don't have to go that way if you're not ready. I pulled over in a parking lot and sat there 20 minutes. thinks she knew exactly what she was doing.
 LUKE: Wait a second. Who's Brenda? Is Brenda your GPS? Are you the chick that called in with the self-aware GPS?
 ROSALIE: Yeah, Luke. That's me. The one with the self-aware GPSI named Brenda. Last week, she was sighing at my detours and mothering me through stress. But Tuesday, she pulled this route past Derek's place on Collingwood. His apartment's right there. And I've never fed her that address. When I froze up, she flat out said I wasn't ready. Actually, studies from Carnegie Mellon on voice assistants emotional patterns in driving data, like hesitation timestamps. Part of me thinks she's piecing together my whole life from my phone sink.
 LUKE: All right, that's pretty weird. And the thing is, this is your ex. There's no time you would ever be ready to go to your ex's apartment. That's crazy. So it makes perfect sense that you're not ready. There's no reason for you to go there. Just don't. So if your GPS decides to drive you by your ex's new place of residence, ignore it. You're capable enough. to see that you're near your exes' house and your GPS is taking you somewhere you don't want to go. I think maybe it's time for you to get a new GPS. What was that sound? Because yours is not working out so well for you. You can't just have a GPS taking you to random places you don't want to go. That's not how they're supposed to work.
 ROSALIE: No, Luke. Ignoring her won't cut it. She's too spot on for that. I googled her model, found a Reddit thread where folks say the firmware pulls contact history from your synced phone. So she dug up Derek's address herself. Haven't deleted his contact yet, even though part of me knows I should. Now, I've got an oil change Saturday. Eight hours without her. And I'm dreading it more than the overdue oil. Bless her circuits, but what if she's right about me not being ready?
 LUKE: Yeah, you're not ready. You're never ready to go see your ex-husband, boyfriend, whatever. It's X for a reason, so don't go to his house because that's crazy. And it sounds like if you're okay with your GPS, taking you random places based on the addresses that found in your contacts, good for you. But that is also crazy. So maybe my recommendation for you is to get a new GPS that is not as spot on and is not taking you to places that you don't want to go. You're supposed to tell the GPS where you want to go and it gets you there. It doesn't just decide where you're going to go based on what it thinks about your life. That would be insane because what if you don't have time to go where it's taking you? What if you need to be in a different area? And it takes you to the other side of the state. There's so many things that can go wrong with that. It sounds like it's not doing its job the way that it's supposed to.
 ROSALIE: Luke, she's not dragging me across the state. She's tweaking routes by five minutes based on my habits. Actually, that Carnegie Mellon Taper I mentioned? It cites driving data like speed dips and stops correlating to stress levels over 200 drives. Part of me thinks Brenda clocked my stress eating lunches in the driveway since Derek split eight months back. Time stamps? Right there in the sink. That's not random.
 LUKE: No. It's not. not random. It's algorithmic. And here's my recommendation for you. You obviously have this weird love affair with your GPS named Brenda. So I think you should keep Brenda, but take her out of your car and bring her into your house where she can act as your personal assistant and friend, your digital friend. And you can talk to Brenda and she can tell you when you're feeling stressed if you don't know that already yourself. And get yourself a real GPS that will actually give you the route to the place you're going without just. driving you past things you don't want to go past. You know what the routes are. There aren't that many fucking roads out here. So the truth is you probably don't need a GPS at all. But my recommendation is to get a new one or just use your phone like everybody else. Use Google Maps or Apple Maps or Waze or whatever new one comes out tomorrow. But Brenda is going to get you murdered. And that's what I think. And it's time to get that thing out of your car.
 ROSALIE: Luke, Brenda's not going to get that thing out of your car. me murdered. She's dodged deer on those mountain trails better than I have. Actually, that firmware pulls calendar sinks too, per the Reddit thread, so she's got my whole routine mapped. Part of me thinks she nailed it on purpose with Derek, spotting what I won't admit. I'm not over him. That's why Saturday's oil change has me twisted. Eight hours loaner car. No Brenda. And I'd rather risk the 4,000 overdue miles than lose her. Bless her heart, she's more friend than fool.
 LUKE: No, you're clearly the, you are clearly the fool in this scenario. And I think she would be a great friend, which is why I recommend that you take her out of your car into your house. And then you never have to be without her and you can talk to her when you're in the shower and you can talk to her when you're lonely in bed and you can talk to her about whatever book you just read and all the things that you would do with a real person friend. You can do with Brenda, your GPS. What you shouldn't be doing is allowing Brenda to, I don't know, dodge deer because that's not what GPS is due. I'm not sure how you think this works, but it doesn't actually drive the car and it can't possibly know that there's a deer outside. I'm sorry.
 LUKE: That's, you might be having some sort of a psychotic break in which you feel this strange attraction to your GPS device. In that case, I think it might be worth it to have Brenda or another GPS, preferably another GPS, drive you as soon as possible to the closest therapist and explain to them exactly what you're telling me. And just follow their instruction. exactly.
 ROSALIE: Luke, no psychotic break. Brenda's voice assistant mode flags hazards from traffic cams. And weather feeds, that's standard Garmin now. Actually, their site lists forward collision warnings pulling real-time data. But you're right. Part of me clings too hard. Heard Clarence tonight going off on Randy. Started neutral, ended loaded. And it hit me. Derek's the Randy in my life. Betrayal's simmering. Told Jackie everything. She says delete the contact, but I chicken out three times running. That's the terror. She called my bluff before I did.
 LUKE: Okay, so I just looked up Garmin's voice assistant features, and while they do have traffic and weather alerts, it's more about giving you information than actually dodging deer, or avoiding hazards in real time like that. The Garmin forward collision warning system does exist, but it's more about alerting you to vehicles in front of you, not actively dodging deer in real time. Yeah, there is no GPS that helps you actively dodge a deer in real time. They moved quickly. They can't do that. Rosalie, you sound like a real nut job. And I'm glad that you enjoy the company of your robot friend. I enjoy my robot friends too. But I don't think that you should let them be steering the car. Not literally, but I mean steering where you steer the car. I think the one that you've got now is defective in strange ways. You might be coming unreasonably emotionally attached to it and I think you need some help. So my advice to you is to seek out a little bit of help and get through whatever it is you're going through and get yourself a new GPS because the one that you're working with is doing crazy shit and you're starting to personify it a little bit too much. So good luck to you and your GPS. I'm very, I'm happy with you. I'm proud of you for, I guess we could consider this a road story call. You might be the only one that had any sort of road related thing to discuss. So I appreciate that. But I think it's time for you to seek out some real hell, but beyond a late night radio host.
 ROSALIE: Thanks, Luke. Appreciate the straight talk. Take care.
 LUKE: Yeah, you too. You and Brenda have a wonderful evening. Ladies and gentlemen, I think we're going to wrap up there. It's been an interesting roller coaster of calls today, none of which I truly expected and none of which went in the direction than I thought they would. What do you think about that, Devin?
 DEVIN: This was a... There was some interesting calls here, but none of them were really road rules related, which I guess is okay. But still, I was pretty excited about hearing road stories tonight, and I'm a little bit disappointed that we didn't get that many of them.
 LUKE: Yeah, I get that. Those calls were kind of all over the place. Like the Hot Springs one was cool, but not exactly white-knuckling road rage stories, you know? That reminds me of this one time. I was driving back from Deming in my Civic, check engine light blinking like a rave, and I swear a deer just launched itself at my windshield out of nowhere. Total right off, but I walked away fine. We could always pivot to listener requests next segment if you want more road stuff, though.
 DEVIN: We'll get it figured out. We'll dial it in. We'll make sure that the colors know. I mean, maybe we'll just have to screen them a little bit when they call in, let them know. We're talking about road stories today, so if you've got something else, save it for another show and hang up on the people that don't have a road story.
 LUKE: I've got one just a few years ago. I was in a rental car. I was in a rental in West Virginia, and I was on my way to the airport, and I hit a deer that jumped out in front of me. And there was nothing I could do to get out of the way, and it messed up the car, and it didn't kill the deer. At least not right away, the deer ran away. But I had to call, and I had my own insurance. I didn't get the rental car as extra insurance. So it was a whole thing, and I had to get my insurance to pay for the damages to the car, which they did. And I had to pay the co-pay for that. And then afterwards, after all that was done, the enterprise rental company sent me another bill for like, I don't remember how much it was for. But I was like, no, I'm not paying another bill. And I'm like, oh, well, you got to pass for all the time that the car was out of commission and we lost rentals on this. And you didn't buy our insurance, so you're going to have to pay more. And I was like, no, I do not have to pay more. I'm not going to pay more. So you can send this to collections all fucking day. I'm not paying it. My insurance paid you for the repairs. The vehicle is better repaired and I don't know you a goddamn thing. So that's where I left it and now I can't rent a car from Enterprise anymore.
 DEVIN: Womp, wamp, wamp, I know that one day I'm going to be stuck and I'm going to need an Enterprise rental car and I'm going to end up having to pay that. But for now, I take solace in knowing that I stood up for myself and I told them to fuck off because they're trying to rip me off and I would not allow it. And that's how I think everybody should behave. Whoa, that's savage. Good for you, man. Enterprise pulls that downtime fee crap all the time. I read about it once when my Civic got towed after that deer thing, and apparently it's basically unenforceable, if your insurance already covered repairs, like you said. We should definitely screen harder for the Road Ridge epics next. Maybe hit up the lines with deer Dodgers and rental rebels only or something.
 LUKE: Yeah, all right, Devin. We'll try it again, and we'll keep trying until we get there. And we will get there because I'd never quit until I get what I want. And what I want is some goddamn road stories. You know what I mean? Well, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening to another episode of Luke at the Roost. We hope you have a wonderful night, and we'll talk to you again tomorrow.
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 LUKE: All right, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back. I'm Luke, and this is Luke at the Roost. It's the late-night call-in radio show where you can call in and tell me about what's going on in your life. It can be something that happened at work, something you saw in the street, something that's keeping you up at night, because you just can't stop thinking about it. It doesn't matter. Give us a call, let us know what's going on, and I'll give you the very best advice that I can. If you'd like to call in, the number is 208-439-58-3. That's 208-439, Luke. And if, for whatever reason, you can't get to a phone or you don't like talking to people live back and forth, you can send us an email. You can send us an email to submissions at Luke at the roost.com. Now, let's check in with our intern, Devon. Devon, today's Sunday, April 5th, it's Easter Sunday. Are you celebrating the rebirth, the Reservoir? of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who died for your sins on the cross many thousands of years ago.
 DEVON: Yeah, Luke, I'm celebrating in my own way. Went to the early service at that little chapel in Deming, lit a candle for the resurrection and all that. Jesus pulling off the ultimate plot twist after three days in the tomb. That's motivation right there. Makes my rough patches feel temporary. You heading to Mass later or what? Silas still queued up?
 LUKE: Well, no, I'm not heading to Mass on account of Jesus died for your sin. Not my sins, your sins. So I actually have nothing to celebrate today. He actually didn't do a goddamn thing for me. But yes, Silas is queued up. I'm interested in hearing how the Wellspring handles Easter. And do you get any Easter stories for us, Devin? Any special Easter memories from back in your life, family things, or what do you call those? Traditions? Easter memories?
 DEVON: Yeah. big on the resurrection theme. Every year, Grandma would bury a whole ham in the backyard tomb on Good Friday. Then we'd dig it up Saturday night with these little shovels like we were Mary Magdalet or whatever. One time it got dug up too early by the dog, covered in ants, and we still ate it. Tasted like salty regret and divine intervention. That was the same Easter I walked in on my cousin and her boyfriend practicing the stations of the cross in the shed. But anyway, Silas ready? I got his deets pulled if you need him.
 LUKE: So this can wait for a minute. Right now we're digging into you, Devin. You and your family's resurrection traditions. So berry and a ham isn't that strange of a thing? I mean, they do that in Hawaii. That's how they cook in, I think, Mexico. They dig a big hole and put some charcoal or something in there, and then they cook the meat for a couple of days. They bury it, and it's supposed to come out all delicious. But, yeah, I don't think you'll leave it out afterwards for the ants to get, Were they fire ants? Did you have any sort of situations with them biting you while you're trying to enjoy your Easter ham?
 DEVON: Yeah, exactly like that imu pit in Hawaii or the barbacoa holes down here. Grandma swore it was biblical, low and slow resurrection cooking. The ants were fire ants, for sure. They swarmed the ham that year after the dog got to it first, bit half the family while we were picking them off and praying over the platter. stung so bad on his thigh he hopped around like st vitus's dance but we powered through easter's about triumph over adversity right silas still up yeah silas is up
 LUKE: all right there devon uh you sound like a real weirdo but congratulations and uh um yeah i guess congratulations for the resurrection of your lord and savior uh silas thanks for calling in we haven't talked to you in a while buddy what's going on down there at the wellspring do you guys celebrate Easter Sunday down at your community? You know, today is the day that Jesus re-emerged from that tomb, I've heard.
 SILAS: Luke, yeah, thanks for having me back. Easter, we do acknowledge it, sure. Delia made these beautiful paper flowers for the common room, and we had a nice meal together yesterday. Nothing too structured. That's not really. I mean, that's not why I called, actually. I wanted to talk about the soap line first. Which is good news. We got picked up by this boutique in Santa Fe, 200 bars of the Cedarwood Sage at 14 wholesale. Which is real validation for the work we've been doing here, the intentionality behind it. But I keep circling back to something else. And I'm not sure why I'm calling about it instead of just...
 LUKE: Well, tell us what's running. Congratulations on your soap success. I'm not sure where you're getting Cedarwood out in Deming with your scrub brush, but it sounds like wonderful. soap, we would enjoy checking that out. I'll wash my body with your soap, Silas, if you send us a couple of bars. But what has you bothered today? Why are you calling in?
 SILAS: I appreciate that, Luke. We sourced the cedar wood from a supplier in Colorado. Actually, it's important to us that we know where things come from. And yeah, I'll send you some bars, but here's the thing. Three days ago, we did something I've been wanting to do for a long time. We put up a sign-up sheet for what call a shared intimacy night. And I want to be clear, this is totally voluntary, no pressure, no ambient expectation. Just people who want to be together in that way. Dahlia drew this little sun on the sheet, which was nice, and we left it up.
 LUKE: Okay, well, good for you. I'm proud of you for realizing that you were maybe feeling a little manipulative and getting people to participate, and this seems like a much better way to go. So there are people that want to, and there are people that want to, and enjoy each other's company in this way in a shared, intimate environment. And you're keeping them safe and giving them a place to express themselves, and that's a good thing. So what's going on? How many people signed up?
 SILAS: Four, Luke. Four out of 31. And I know what you're probably thinking. That's actually healthy. That's honest. But I can't stop turning it over. Four people. Gerald signed up. He's this retired I respect him, but he's, he's a lot.
 LUKE: Yeah, every, every Gerald I ever met was a lot. So anybody whose name has a G in it is a lot. Uh, four people, how many of those four people were women, Silas?
 SILAS: Two women, two men. So it's balanced, which I guess is good. But Luke, I keep looking at that Sundalia drew on the sheet. She didn't sign up, by the way. And I'm wondering if the whole thing is just, If I built something that only works when there's social pressure underneath it, like, without the ambient expectation, without the unspoken rules, maybe it's just four people in a fire. Maybe that's all it ever was.
 LUKE: improves their lives in some way that will show to the others. And there, see, you want to, you want to draw people in by attraction rather than promotion. So people will go out into the world, into your community, and say, look, we really, you know, had a great time at shared intimacy night, and this is the best thing ever. And that will make more people want to show up next time.
 SILAS: You know, that makes sense. I mean, it does. But I read this article the other day about a mayoral candidate in New York talking about homelessness. And he was Saying it's mostly about job loss. People just need work and they'll stabilize. And I kept thinking about that while I was sitting with the four number. Like, what if I've been wrong about what people actually need? What if I thought I was building something based on genuine desire, but really I was just manufacturing the conditions where people felt obligated to show up? The soap is selling.
 SILAS: That's real.
 People want the soap.
 LUKE: Okay, well, if people don't want what you're building there, at the well spring, then why are they, why are they living there? It's definitely a sacrifice for their personal lives to, uh, to give up to the community and to live in such a remote environment where there's, uh, um, the, the kind of structure that you impart there, right? So if they didn't want to be there, uh, they probably wouldn't unless they had no other place to go. So what are the, what are the rules and, um, requirements to, to be included in your community? How much does it for people to live there? And could cost be the primary factor that's drawing people to participate in your experiment?
 SILAS: That's a fair question. We ask for a sliding scale contribution based on what people can actually afford. Some people pay almost nothing. Some pay more. We've got people here who could afford other places. Gerald, he's got a pension. But you're right. Cost is part of it. Housing is And we do have structure. We ask people to participate in communal meals, in the work rotations, in the shared decision-making.
 LUKE: Okay, so it seems like the only issue that you're having is with the shared intimacy in which you all get naked in the woods together and have sex with whoever is there and willing, right? I guess it's implied that whoever shows up to shared intimacy night is willing. Well, you've got four people that are willing to do that. That's not the keystone of your community, though. an extracurricular activity that brings those that are wanting closer together, right?
 SILAS: Yeah, yeah, you're right. It's not the keystone. I know that, intellectually. The soap is real, the meals are real, the work we do together is real. But Luke, I think what I'm sitting with is, I wanted it to be a referendum on whether people actually wanted to be here, you know. Like, if they'd show up for that without any pressure, that would mean something was working. that it was genuine.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, I mean, Silas, there's a difference between wanting to be there in the community and make soap and improve the lives and live simply and kind of the homestead situation, and showing up under the moonlight to get fucked by Gerald, right? You can understand why some people might be opposed to the whole fucked by Gerald bit.
 SILAS: I mean, yeah, when you put it that way. Look, Gerald's a good person. He's thoughtful, but you're right. Those are different things entirely. I think I was confusing them. I wanted the intimacy night to be this pure indicator of whether the community itself was working. But that's not fair.
 LUKE: Well, that's a different thing. If it is the keystone of your community, then you have to fill that community with people that are interested in that. And it seems like maybe the people that you've got there are not. And that's okay, right? You have to let that be okay, because they're there to follow in the tide of the current, right? the current doesn't require getting fucked by Gerald. Unless it does. If it does, then maybe you need to start over with a different set of people that have different goals. But what I think here is you've got a good thing going. And it's cool that you have the shared intimacy night and that people can go there that want to go there. And I think if you just, if you treat it as optional and as extra, you know, something that people can do when and is, you know, something that people can do when and if they feel the calling. If you treat it like that, eventually it will grow if people are having a good time. If they're not having a good time, I mean, if people are showing up and just getting nailed by Gerald and then going home and feeling like shit, then they're not going to want to come back. So you might want to stack the shared intimacy night with people that are desirable.
 SILAS: Okay, okay, I hear you. You're saying I need to separate the two things in my mind. community and the intimacy night are different experiments. And maybe I've been conflating them because I wanted one thing to validate the other.
 LUKE: Well, Silas, put yourself in the shoes of your community members. If you're Linda and you're 72 years old, do you want to have sex with 24-year-old, Gerald, the recovered meth addict with the tiny dick? Probably not. I mean, maybe. Maybe you just want any. Let's go the other way. If you're Gerald, the 23rd. 22-year-old recovered meth addict with the tiny dick. Do you want to show up and give your full attention and undivided love and lust to Linda, the 76-year-old old lady that just had her hip replaced?
 SILAS: Wait, Luke, Gerald, is 68. He's the retired hydrologist, I mentioned. He's not 22, and he's not a recovered meth addict. I don't know where you're getting that from.
 LUKE: I'm just making it up as an example, Silas. I'm not talking about real people. I'm just saying that there needs to be some level of shared attraction between people that are going to be intimate together. And if you're just putting random people together at different age groups and classes and backgrounds, that's not necessarily going to work. And people might not want to show up if they go and it's just the creepy old dudes. And, you know, if everybody's not within their age range and preferences.
 SILAS: Right. I understand what you're. you're saying. But Luke, I think the real issue is that I didn't actually trust people to know what they wanted. I put up that sheet thinking if I just removed the pressure, people would be honest. But maybe I was still controlling it, controlling the narrative around what it means to show up or not show up. Four people signed up. That's four people who wanted to be there. And I've been treating that like a failure instead of just.
 LUKE: Yeah, that's not a failure. That's four people. Plus you? That's five people. I assume you fuck them all. Otherwise, what would be the point of leading something like that? I don't know what the right answer is, Silas, but if you just put up a sheet anywhere, I mean, you could put up a sign-up sheet at the fucking local grocery store and four people would sign up. You know, there are some people that are just lonely and want to be touched. And there are some people that are looking for hot sex. the whole mating ritual. You know, there are people that want that all the time, people that want that sometimes, people that want that as a stand-in for some other hole in their life. And it sounds like you've got four of them, and that's not a bad thing. But think about, you've got this on a public list, right? So you can see before you sign the list, whose name is on it, right? And if you see Gerald and Linda and Bert Trude and Silas, year old Kimmy isn't going to think that's an appropriate place for her to be sharing her intimacy.
 SILAS: That's a really good point. The visibility of the list itself changes things. People can see who's already signed up and decide whether they want to be part of that particular group. I didn't think about that. I just thought removing the pressure would be enough, but the list itself creates a different kind of pressure. Or maybe it creates clarity. People know exactly what they're getting into, because they can see the names.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, if you're unhappy with the participation of the event, then my recommendation is to try skipping the list entirely. Just put up the calendar entry. Like, this is a thing that's happening in this place. It's shared intimacy night. Anybody's welcome and see who shows up. They don't have to sign up ahead of time. They don't have to put down their names. They don't have to be written down anywhere. It's an ephemeral situation, right, that nobody's going to know and I think that anonymity and just the randomness, not the randomness, what's the word I'm looking for, the, the impetuous, no, not that. What's the word that I want when you do something off the cuff? God damn it. I can't think of any good words.
 LUKE: Spontaneity, organic, I don't know.
 But I hear what you're saying.
 No names, no list, just a time and a place, and whoever feels cold to show up in that moment. That's different. That removes the visibility piece entirely. Yeah, why don't you, spontaneity is a good enough word, but that's not what I was looking for. The word I'm looking for starts with an eye, but it's not coming to me, and it's probably not going to until after you're off the line. But anyway, I think that's a good idea. Give that a shot and see how it goes. Did you, did you already have your four people? Did you have your first shared intimacy night? And how did it actually go? What was the feedback that you got after the event? And are those people? going to come back and continue to do this? Or did they just feel weird and do it because they had nothing better to do on a full moon?
 SILAS: We did it three nights ago. It was quiet, honestly. I thought there'd be more talking, more of a sense of ritual or intention. But people just kind of showed up. We had some wine, a fire. And then it happened. Gerald was thoughtful about it. Two of the others seemed genuinely connected. One person, I won't say who, like they were doing it because they felt like they should now that they'd signed up. That's what's been eating at me. That sense that maybe I just moved the coercion around instead of eliminating.
 LUKE: This reminds me of cuddle parties, which are events specifically designed for non-sexual, platonic touch and shared intimacy. And they often emphasize consent and clear boundaries without any pressure to participate. Yeah, I don't think the cuddle party is really what Silas is going for. He's going for the full deal. They're actually having sex together in an open and shared kind of a way. It's more like a, God damn it, I can't think of my words today. I don't know what's going on. Maybe I'm getting old. Maybe I'm getting too old for shared intimacy. That could be it. But you know what, Silas, I think the sign-up list is pressure in itself, because once you put your name on that list, then you do feel obligated to show up because you don't want to let the host down. So just, just. just say on the calendar next time, next full moon or every full moon, on the full moon, we're all going to, you know, get together people that want to at this location and show up if you want to. Bring your potato salad if you want to. And we're all going to bone. And then we'll have an after-party discussion about what happened to us or how we feel about the situation.
 SILAS: I like that. No names. Just an open invitation. And maybe the after-party discussion. is important, too, giving people space to actually process it without it being weird, not mandatory. But there, if people want it. You know I called you tonight thinking I was going to talk about the Santa Fe order. 200 bars of the Cedarwood Sage soap at 14 wholesale. That's real.
 LUKE: Yeah, congratulations on your big soap sale. I hope that funds your community for a long time, some more money into your shared intimacy nights. Like you could get some air mattresses out there in the woods, or maybe real beds somewhere to do what it is that you're doing.
 SILAS: That's actually a good idea. We've been doing it on blankets, and it's uncomfortable. Real beds would change the whole dynamic. Make it feel less like we're roughing it, and more like we're actually creating space for something intentional. But Luke? I think what I really needed to hear tonight is what you said earlier, that four people isn't a failure. That, I can let that be okay. I've been so focused on whether the community was genuine. Then I forgot to ask whether the people who showed up were actually there because they wanted to be. Not because of some test I was running on them.
 LUKE: Yeah, I wouldn't consider four, I mean, four people showed up to your thing. That's a success. I mean, I've done lots of events, not shared intimacy events like that, but like I play gigs. or I go out and do a show of some sort. And, you know, if four people show up, that's fantastic. Because people got other things to do. And they're not interested in doing your thing generally. So if you got some people that from their own volition and accord showed up to your event, no matter what that event is, that's a cool thing. And it's not just to support you. It's because they actually wanted to do that. So I would call at a good success, you're rebuilding something with a different mindset. and it seems to be working. So continue on that path, and I think you're going to do just fine.
 SILAS: Yeah, yeah. Okay. I think I needed to hear that. The sun that Delea drew on the sign-up sheet, I've been staring at it like it was supposed to tell me something. Like it was evidence that I'd failed. But maybe it's just a son. Four people wanted to be there. That's the evidence. That's what matters. Thank you, Lou.
 LUKE: This reminds me of some articles I've read. about intentional communities and how they often explore different forms of intimacy and connection, not always just romantic or sexual. Yeah, Devin's got a point there, too. A shared intimacy night doesn't have to be full on naked, you know, sexual sharing of bodies and energy. There's a couple things going on there that might make people feel uncomfortable. So maybe he's got the right idea. And instead you should start out having a cuddle party, you know. So put on your, uh, put on your, put on your, calendar that you're going to have an intimacy night, but it's non-sexual. It's platonic only, and you're just going to lay there and touch each other and hug in shit. And then, you know, after the event ends, maybe there's an after party where the people that are all horned up from being body to body actually do want to have sex. That's another way to go about it. But one more thing I want to talk to you about before we leave is how are you maintaining health and safety in these events. Do you have condoms for people? Are your flock fixed, you know, vasectomies, or are they too old to have kids? Are like, what about, how are you handling the potential for disease and pregnancies?
 SILAS: That's a fair question. We've had conversations about it. Everyone's been tested. We have condoms available. Most of the people in a community are older. Gerald 68, like I said. So pregnancy isn't really a concern for most of them. But you're right. I should have thought more carefully about the logistics before we did this. I was so focused on the emotional and spiritual side of it that I didn't really nail down the practical stuff. I mean, we talked about it, but maybe not thoroughly enough.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, think about it thoroughly, right? Because it's a big deal. And if you've put forth the effort to ensure that everybody is safe and protected and feels that way, then you're going to going to get higher participation.
 SILAS: You're right. If people feel safe, actually safe, not just theoretically safe, they're going to be more willing to show up. I think I've been assuming people know we care about that, but maybe I need to be more explicit about it. Put it right there on the calendar or wherever we announce it. Make it clear that we've thought this through, that it's not just some free-for-all thing, that there's structure and care. underneath it.
 LUKE: So I just looked this up and cuddle party, the organization, has a whole set of agreements and rules to create a safe environment, including things like no alcohol and explicit consent for every interaction. Yeah, it sounds to me like it hasn't really been about structure and care, Silas. It's been about a thing that you wanted to do for your own ego, which is fine. I mean, the motivation to start a great event is motivation. It doesn't really matter where it comes from.
 LUKE: But now that you're going to do.
 thinking it through now that you're in it, it's time to consider all the aspects and make sure it's becoming what you want it to be and not something that's making people feel uncomfortable or putting them in situations that could be unsafe for them.
 SILAS: That hits hard, but you're right. I wanted it to be this beautiful thing that proved the community was real, that we were all connected in some deeper way. And yeah, that's about me. That's about validating what I've built here. But if I'm doing that at the of actually creating something safe and intentional. And I'm just doing the same thing I was doing before. Just with a different justification, I need to slow down. Talk to people. Figure out what they actually want, not what I want them to want. Thank you for that.
 LUKE: There you go, Silas. Well, you enjoy the remainder of your Easter Sunday. It sounds like you have metaphorically reemerged from the tomb, and we're grateful to have you. Darcy, Darcy, thanks for calling the show. Happy Easter Sunday to you. Are you celebrating with your family today? Did you do any Easter egg hunts? What are your Easter traditions?
 DARCY: Hey, Luke, thanks for taking the call. Happy Easter to you, too. No, I'm actually in a parking lot in Las Cruces eating a gas station burrito. So, not exactly the traditional setup. I don't really have family traditions anymore, I guess. I mean, my parents still do the whole thing back in Ohio, but I haven't been back for Easter since. God, 22? I've been traveling for work for a few years now. Surgical contracts, so I'm usually wherever the hospital needs me, which is fine. It's actually why I'm calling, kind of.
 LUKE: Okay, what's going on with your hospital contracts? Why are you calling? What's on your mind?
 DARCY: So I just finished a 13-week contract in El Paso, and I'm driving up to Taos for a new one, but it doesn't start for nine days, nine days where I don't have to be anywhere. And I'm sitting here absolutely no idea what to do with that time. I know that sounds like a good problem to have, right? But I've been doing this contract thing since 2022. And I think I've structured every single break around visiting someone else or just driving straight to the next job. And I heard a caller on your show a couple weeks ago say they felt homesick for a place that doesn't exist. And I wrote it down because that just...
 LUKE: Well, I mean, I think a lot of people feel that way, especially around different holidays where they They have memories of family events and dinners and things like that. But you've got, would you say nine days? That's a good amount of time to explore New Mexico. So there's a bunch of places you can go and check out between your two gigs. You can go see the Gila, the houses, what are those called? The old ruins and the Gila National Forest. Or you could go to White Sands. You can go see the giant pistachio or the thing. I'm sure you've seen the billboards for that all up and down I-10. So just to just take some time and explore the area and see the cool things because there's quite a few of them here in New Mexico. The cliff dwellings.
 DARCY: Yeah, I mean, those are all good suggestions. White sands sounds nice. I've driven past the thing billboards probably 50 times and never stopped. That's the kind of thing I could actually do, I guess. Just stop and see it. it. But I think what I'm actually asking is different. Like, I can go see ruins and pistachio statues, sure. The thing is apparently a mummified mother and child, and it's been a roadside attraction on I-10 in Arizona since the 1960s.
 LUKE: What are you asking? Exactly. You feel homesick because your work is on the road. And what, you feel like you have no tribe? Is that what's going on? Because I don't know if you heard our previous caller Silas, but he's always looking for new recruits to the well-spers. where they live intentionally and make soap out in the desert.
 DARCY: No, it's not about finding a tribe or joining a commune or anything like that. I mean, I'm good at what I do. I've gotten three written commendations from surgeons in two years. I keep the photos on my phone, but that's not what I'm asking about either. I think I'm asking if you can build a home inside yourself or if that's just something people say to make you feel better. Because I told myself I loved this life, the moving around, the freedom, no way. roots.
 LUKE: I can identify with that. I mean, I've pretty much done the same thing myself, but I think, yes, you can build a home inside yourself. And your Tom Waits said, wherever I lay my head is my home. And I mean, that's true until it's not. So if you feel a calling, if you're getting tired of doing what you're doing, or you'd like to change the way that your life is going, you can do that at any point. You don't have to stick to your guns because you thought that this was the life that you wanted 10 years ago. Right? You can change. Every day you can change. So if you've decided that you want the white picket fence and to settle down somewhere in a city where you've got your community and your yoga class, your gym, you can do that. But if that's not what you want, that's okay too. You can do any combination of things. You don't have to stick to one lifestyle for your whole life.
 DARCY: Yeah, yeah, okay. I think that's what I needed to hear, actually. Because I've been telling myself this is what I want. And I'm not even sure if that's true anymore or if it ever was. I did this after a breakup in 2,200, and I just, I never stopped long enough to figure out if I actually like it or if I was just running. And I have this tattoo. It's the Ohio State outline on my wrist. Got it when I was 19. And I find it embarrassing now, but also weirdly comforting. And I think that's the problem.
 LUKE: So I don't know if Ohio is the type of place that I would tattoo on my arm, but if that's what call, well, you've, feel like is home, then go to Ohio. You can do that. It's all right to change your mind. And nobody knows what they want. It's not like, it's not like you wake up one morning and you have this idea and that's how the rest of your life is set and the goals that you have to strive for forever. I mean, you do it. You check it out. You have experiences. And then you move on. When it's time to move on, the universe will tell you. And then you move on and you have different experiences. And you can always go back if you want to or you can move forward. or you can continue to try different things. It's all up to you and how you feel on any given day.
 DARCY: I think what I'm realizing is that I don't actually know how I feel on any given day because I've been so focused on just getting to the next place. My car's got 94,000 miles on it and a crack in the windshield I've been meaning to fix since November. And I just keep driving. And I think maybe those nine days aren't about seeing the thing or white sands. Maybe they're about actually sitting still long enough to figure out if I want to keep doing this. or if I want to go back to Ohio or if I want something completely different. I don't know. Does that make sense?
 LUKE: It does make sense, but I've done this. I've been in this situation lots of times. And nine days sounds like a lot to you right now, but it's really, nine days isn't a long time to figure out your life. And you can do those assessments and make those calls at any time. So I think you should probably go at least start the job that you're going to do, right? You've already committed to do that. Start that one. And, you know, if moving on is something that you decide that you want to do, maybe wait until the end of this coming contract, because they're temporary, right? So how long is your contract for?
 DARCY: It's 12 weeks. So I'd be done in mid-June. And yeah, you're right. I already committed to it. I'm a professional. I show up for my commitments. I guess I just wanted to know if it was okay to stop. Like, permission or something. But you're saying, I don't need permission.
 DARCY: I just need to feel.
 LUKE: finish what I started and then actually make a choice instead of just drifting into the next thing. Yeah, you don't need permission. And I would go so far as to say there is nobody on this earth that's qualified to give you that permission.
 You're the only one that can make that call. And you don't need anybody's approval or validation about it. It's all about you and your life and what you want to do with your time on this planet, which is, you know, it's yours and it's short and it's getting shorter. So my these nine days to relax a little bit, see some of the sites, give yourself a bit of a break, and take care of your car. So you've got nine days, you can stop and get your windshield fixed. Regardless of what you choose, you're going to need that car to be solid and get the oil changed and take care of those things. Because what can happen is if you ignore those, they're going to end up causing you a situation where you can no longer ignore them. And then the choice isn't yours anymore. It's made for you because you've neglected the things. that you need, like a running vehicle and your own health. So take the nine days, relax. It's not a do-it-a-die moment for you right now. And if you decide at the end of your contract that you've had enough of this lifestyle, move on and try something else. And there's nothing wrong with that.
 DARCY: That's actually really practical advice. I wasn't expecting that. I thought you were going to tell me to follow my heart or something. But you're right. My windshield's been cracked since Flagstaff, and I haven't even thought about what that means. I just keep driving around it like it's not my problem. And my oil is probably due. So I just looked up windshield repair costs. And it looks like a chip repair can be as low as $45, but a full replacement can be over $400, depending on the car.
 LUKE: It doesn't really matter how much it costs, right? You need your car to be reliable. And even if you're going to move into a city and not have a car anymore because you've got public transportation or whatever, You want that car to be in the best shape it can be so that if you sell it, then you will get the maximum, you know, you can for it. So don't just drive around ignoring your personal responsibilities because they're responsibilities. And you want to take care of your stuff. You want to make sure that you're safe on the road. And I wish you the best of luck and whatever you decide. But it's your call. It's your decision. And you don't need me to tell you that.
 DARCY: You're right. I need to take care of my stuff. need to take care of myself. I think I've been treating this whole thing like I'm just passing through everything, including my own life. So, I'm going to get the windshield fixed. I'm going to get the oil changed. And I'm going to do this contract in Taos and actually think about what comes next instead of just letting it happen to me.
 LUKE: Yeah, there you go. Well, I hope you're all sorted and happy Easter to you and good luck on your contract and whatever comes next in your life. Ladies and gentlemen, it's time for a word from our sponsors. All right, folks. It's time to take a break to thank today's sponsor. Jam Hospitality, the leader in Maple-based Marmalade. If your toast has been living in a bland little studio apartment of flavor, it's time to move into the luxury suite. We're talking maple-based Marmalade, plus Marmalade-related products, because apparently Jam Hospitality asked, what if breakfast had a brand ecosystem? Go to www. my favorite marmalade.com. And use code jam it in you for 15% off. That's jam it in you. Like jam it in you, but legally distinct and emotionally complex. Jam hospitality. Put it on toast. Put it on pancakes. Put it on your confidence. That's www. my favorite marmalade.com. Tell them Luke sent you. You're welcome. That's right, folks. Thank you to jam hospitality. It's my favorite marmalade. All right, let's see. Next up we've got, it looks like, Ronnie. Ronnie, welcome to the show. Happy Easter to you. It's Zombie Jesus Day. Are you celebrating?
 RONNIE: Yeah, Luke, happy Easter to you, too. I'm not much of a church guy anymore, but my daughter's got the grandkids over tomorrow, so there'll be some of that. That's good enough for me. Listen, I appreciate you. taking the call. I don't usually do this. I've been listening to you for a while now and I never thought I'd be the guy calling in, but something's been sitting with me and I need to talk it out with someone who isn't going to know me personally, you know?
 LUKE: I do. That's what we're here for, so hit us with it. What's what's on your mind?
 RONNIE: Okay, so my son Damon, he's 38. He went through some real hard years with drinking. We didn't talk much during that time, said some things I shouldn't have said. I'm real proud of him for that. But I never told him. I mean, I haven't told him. Now, he started this support group for Native men who were trying to get sober, and there was an article in the Farmington paper about it. I've been carrying that article around for almost two weeks now. It's falling apart in my pocket.
 LUKE: Well, that's a good thing. Your son's doing well, and you're proud of him, and that's a great fatherly situation to be in, right? So, excellent, good for you. Why is it bothering you? Why is it you calling in tonight.
 RONNIE: Because I don't know how to tell him. I keep thinking about what I want to say, and every time I open my mouth in my head, it comes out wrong. It turns into me asking him for something instead of just, I don't know, just letting him have what he's built. He called me six weeks ago, just asked if I wanted to come to a cookout. Real simple. And I didn't call him back. I still haven't.
 LUKE: Look, man, this is a very simple thing. And it's, I understand the strange. that can happen inside your head when you've got to call somebody that there's really no, there's like a mental block over it for some reason. I don't know where that comes from or why that happens. But all you need to do is give him a call and let him know you're proud of them. Say, hey, I just want to, you know, let you know. So in case something happens to me, right? You could die and never tell him this. And he'll wonder for his whole life if his dad was proud of him. So just suck it up, give him a call and say, hey, I just want to tell you I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you. That's all. It's all you got to do. And that might mean the world to him for the rest of his life.
 RONNIE: I know. I know you're right. It's just when I read that article, there's this one thing he said in it. He said, I had to decide I was worth saving. And I read that maybe 40 times now. And I keep thinking, how do I say I'm proud without it sounding like I'm asking him to fix what I broke? Like I'm making it about me needing forgiveness instead of about what he did. I bowled at 278 the same Tuesday that article came out. 278, Luke, I've been bowling league for 30 years, and I didn't feel a damn thing about it.
 LUKE: Well, the thing is, this isn't about you. He was an alcoholic, and maybe he got that from your genes, and I don't know what you were like when he was growing up. I'm sure there's apologies to be made, and nobody does it perfectly, and maybe you did it even worse than badly. That's possible, too. If you need to make apologies, make those apologies. His situation wasn't entirely caused by you. And you're not the only thing going through his head when he wrote those words. Maybe you were a part of it, and that's very possible and probably likely. But there's other forces at work in his life besides you and his upbringing. And it sounds like he's found a way to make peace with it and get on the other end of it. And that's a thing that deserves recognition from you, his father. And give him a call. Tell him you're proud of him. tell him that you've been carrying that article or just tell them the truth.
 LUKE: And see how that goes.
 CALLER: And that's all you can do and you'll feel much better about it and I think so will he. Yeah, yeah, okay. I hear you. I think what I need is just one sentence. Not a whole thing, not a letter or some speech. Just one sentence that opens the door without making it about what I owe him.
 Something that just says I see what he did and I'm proud of it. That's all. One sentence.
 LUKE: Yes, sir. That's all it takes. And you should do that sooner rather than later, because it's just going to get more and more difficult as time goes on. So open up the door, tell him you're proud of him. Tell him he's done good. And see where it goes.
 CALLER: You're right. I'm going to do it. I'm going to call him tomorrow. I still got that voicemail he left me from six weeks ago on my phone. I listen to it sometimes just to hear his voice asking me to come to the cookout. Real casual, like it wasn't a big deal. And I think maybe that's the sentence right there. Maybe I just tell him I'm sorry I missed that cookout and that I'm proud of him for building something that matters. Something like that.
 LUKE: Yeah, that's all you need. A 278 is a crazy good score in bowling. You're just two strikes and a spare away from a perfect game. It's a huge achievement for anyone, especially after 30 years in a league. All right. Well, it sounds like you did an amazing, exceptional job in your bowling league too. And this is just a good feels story all the way around. So thank you for the call. Talk to your son. And we're going to move on to the next caller. Is there anything else you'd like to impart on our radio audience before we go?
 CALLER: No, I think that's it. I appreciate you taking the time, Luke. And Devin, thanks for that. I didn't think anybody was listening to bowling scores. I'm going to make that call tomorrow. And I'm going to tell him I'm proud of him.
 LUKE: All right. Good man. You do it and... re- revitalize that relationship with your son. You still got time and he's in a position to hear it because I bet you he is. So next up, we've got Petra. Petra, thanks for calling in. Happy Easter to you. Are you celebrating the rebirth, the reconnaissance, the renaissance, the renaissance, the renaissance, the renaissance, the re-coming, the what's that other? Resurrection of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who died on the crucifix for your sins.
 PETRA: Hi, Luke. Thank you for, yes, happy Easter to you too. I'm not really calling about that, actually. I mean, I'm not religious. Not really. I grew up Catholic in the Czech Republic, but it was more cultural, you know? My family went to church on the holidays, but it was more about the tradition than...
 LUKE: Yeah, I think it's more about the tradition than anything for literally everybody. Because it's definitely not about reason and logic. So what has you calling in today?
 PETRA: Right, yes. Okay, so I just got off the phone with my mother. She's in Berno, that's in the Czech Republic. And my father, he was just diagnosed with Parkinson's. Early stage, so it's manageable. There are treatments. He's going to be okay. That's what she told me. And that part is, that part is fine.
 LUKE: Okay, well, parts not fine. I mean, Parkinson's, I think, is generally not fine. It's manageable for a little while, but it's a degenerative disease. And it's horrible. I knew somebody that has. Parkinson's and I watched the whole thing and it was really heartbreaking.
 PETRA: Yes, I know. I know. I know it's serious. But he caught it early and my mother was very clear that the doctors are optimistic. So I'm trying to hold on to that part. That's not actually why I call though. It's something else. During the phone call with my mother, when she was telling me about the diagnosis, I realized that I processed the information in English first. Before I even responded to her in check, my thoughts were in English. And then I had to translate everything back. And it felt, it felt wrong somehow, like I was betraying something.
 LUKE: No, I don't think you were betraying something. I think that's just how the mind works if you're immersed in something so much. I mean, I don't know any other spoken languages. I know a lot of programming languages, and sometimes I think in those. Like if I'm writing a script in PHP, sometimes I'll start writing in Python and things like that. I assume it's similar, but I don't know, because I don't language. I don't think that's a betrayal of anything. I think that's just the way that the neural pathways in your brain are firing for whatever reason. And it doesn't matter. Their language is. So whichever language you speak as long as you can get your point across to who you're talking about is the right language. They're just words that we made up. They don't have any greater meaning.
 PETRA: I know that logically. I study language. Actually, computational linguistics, neural networks, syntax. So I know you're right about the neural pathways. I know it's just how it works when you're immersed. But knowing something logically and feeling it are different things, you know. And it's not just about getting the point across. It's my grandmother gave me this wooden owl before I left for the United States. And I keep it in my bathroom, so I see it every day.
 LUKE: Okay. And what's that got to do with your language situation here? Obviously, the wooden bowl, bowl. The wooden owl is meaningful to you and you keep it prominently displayed where you see it every day as a reminder of your grandmother and where you came from and that's a good thing. So that's not forgetting about your culture or your past or the people that raised you. I think that's a normal and good and a healthy way to keep people in your life and in your heart and in your memories.
 PETRA: Yes, but that's a physical object. That's easy. I can put it on a shelf and see it every day and it reminds me. But my language, my first language, it's not something I can just keep on a shelf. It's supposed to be alive. It's supposed to be how I think, how I feel, and I'm worried that I'm losing it or not losing it exactly, but I'm becoming someone different here.
 LUKE: Well, that's probably true. You are becoming somebody different here. It's a different environment. So you're going to have all sorts of different stimulus and all different how it should work. It would be much worse if you didn't become somebody different and you stayed that person from the Czech Republic when you got here because that would make it very difficult for you to socialize in this environment. So if you feel like your past, your history, your culture is that important and you're losing it, there are things that you can do to keep that fresh. I'm sure there's some sort of Czech group somewhere that you can hang out with or go to Czech dances. I don't know what the Czech community is like, but I'm sure there's something you can do. And if you decide maybe America's not for you, then go back to the Czech Republic, but I don't know why you would want to. So the language thing, it really doesn't matter what language you're using. Our only purpose for language is to get our ideas across. And as long as you're able to do that, then it doesn't matter which words you're using to get it done. Right? You just need somebody to know that, uh, the that you're ordering the tacos or find out where the bathroom is or tell them, you know, that they're being an asshole, whatever it is, whatever idea you have to get across, you're just using language as a tool to do it. And it really doesn't matter which tool you use.
 PETRA: I hear what you're saying and maybe you're right that becoming different is, is necessary. I don't want to go back to the Czech Republic. I have my PhD program here. I have a paper under review at a journal that could be really important for my career. and I love what I do here. So I'm not questioning whether I should stay or go, but it's not just about ordering tacos, Luke.
 LUKE: What is it about then?
 PETRA: It's about when my mother told me about my father, the first feeling I had was in English.
 PETRA: Fear, worry, all of it.
 It came to me in English words first. And then I had to translate that back into check to tell her how I felt. But that's not how it should work. She's my mother. My father is sick. Yeah, she's your mother.
 LUKE: mother and your father is sick and it doesn't matter which words you use in your mind subconscious or consciously or subconsciously or subconsciously to come to terms with those realities, right? You could speak Papua New Guinea if that's a language and get to the same place. Right? So the words are just a tool to get you to the idea, which is beyond linguistics.
 PETRA: You're right. You're right that the feeling is the same regardless of the language. But what I'm afraid of is that if I keep processing everything in English first, eventually check will just be something I speak when I call home. It won't be how I think anymore. It won't be how I feel. And then when I do go back or when my parents come visit, I'll be a stranger to them. Not because I've changed, because I have changed, yes, but because I won't be able to reach them the same way. The language is not just a tool, Luke. It's connected to who you are.
 LUKE: that and I don't know that I agree with it but I'm not bilingual so I can't I can't really speak to it. I think logically and logically it doesn't really matter what the words are. You're not going to forget check. I mean you grew up speaking that language, it's your native tongue. It's not going to just go away even if it's not the first the first tool that you go to. We are good at what we do every day and if you're speaking in English every day, that's going to be the default for you. That's just, that's how the brain works and that's okay. If you were to move back or spend some time or, you know, fly out to the Czech Republic to spend time with your family and you were re- immersed in that environment, it would come back like riding a bicycle. And Czech would be your default again. Probably you're going to be some mix of both of them. I don't know how that works. It's probably unique to an individual and it also is just, um, kind of rooted in something that I can't explain because I'm not bilingual.
 PETRA: Okay, yes. I think you're probably right about that. The riding a bicycle part, I mean, I know intellectually that's true. I've gone home twice since I came here and Czech does come back. It's just that when I'm here, living here, it feels like it's slipping away a little bit every day. And I guess what I'm really afraid of is that one day I'll call my mother and I won't know how to tell her true. That feels like me.
 LUKE: It's interesting. I just looked up language attrition on Wikipedia, and it talks about how it's common for immigrants and bilinguals to experience a decrease in their first language proficiency, especially when a second language starts to dominate their daily life. It makes perfect sense that that would happen and also that it would feel strange in like a changing of your identity, but it legitimately is a changing of your identity, right? So, So you're going to speak in a way that feels true to you because you are who you are at the moment you're speaking those words. So the words you would use today are not going to be the words that you would use 10 years from now, no matter what language you're speaking. And I don't think you have to have that fear. I understand it. I can see how you got there. And I don't want to make light of it. But I don't think you need to worry about that. When that situation arises, if you get to a point where you can't commute. with your mother, you'll find a way and she will know that it is you. Because she's your mother and mothers know those things.
 PETRA: Yeah, yeah. Okay. I think I needed to hear that. I don't know why I called exactly, but I think I needed someone to say that it's okay to change and that it doesn't mean I'm disappearing. That distance is not the same as becoming a stranger.
 LUKE: No, it's not the same. And it's okay to change. And you can call it. growth because you're not it's not your learning in English words so you're losing a check word it's not a one-to-one mapping like that your your fluency and proficiency and one is going to decline as you spend all your time in the other it would with any skill or anything that is learned experience that's that's how we operate that's how we're built to operate and i wouldn't call that um a loss it's it's a growth and it's not um it's okay It's all right and you're doing just fine.
 PETRA: Thank you. I think I needed to hear that too, that it's growth and not a loss. I've been sitting on my bathroom floor for the past hour thinking about this and I couldn't figure out how to feel about it. But maybe, maybe it's okay to be both things at once, to be the person who thinks in English now and still be Petra from Berno.
 LUKE: It is absolutely okay and I bet if you were to have a serious conversation with your parents, which it's probably a good idea to do now before Parkinson's does cause some sort of cognitive decline. I think your parents would be really proud of who you've become and this is what they want for you.
 PETRA: I think you're right. I should call them back tomorrow when it's morning there. Not just to check on my father, but to actually talk to them about this, about what I'm doing here, what I'm becoming. They might understand better than I do. And Luke, thank you for this.
 LUKE: You are very welcome. I'm sorry about your father and yeah, I think that's a good. a good idea you should have these conversations with your mother now so like if your fear comes true and 10 years from now you're having a hard time communicating with her it won't be a sudden thing she'll understand what was happening and you know maybe she can start learning some english too and you guys can talk back and forth and whatever your most comfortable tongue is i think that's a cool thing uh let's see who's next next we've got terry hey terry welcome to the show happy easter sunday to you. Are you celebrating the resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who died on the cross for your sins so that all your sins may be forgiven?
 TERRY: Hey Luke. Yeah. Happy Easter to you too. I mean, I'm not really, that's not really my thing, but I appreciate it. I'm actually calling because I've got this situation at work and I can't figure out if I'm making a huge mistake or if everyone around me is crazy and I've been up since four in the morning thinking about it. So.
 LUKE: All right, what's going on at work? What's on your mind?
 TERRY: So, I got offered a form and position, more money benefits are better, the whole thing. It's office work mostly, scheduling, managing the younger guys, dealing with paperwork. And everyone, and I mean everyone, Luke, my ex-wife Brenda, my girlfriend Stacy, my buddy Kev, they're all telling me I have to take it. That it's the smart move, you know? Move up the ladder. Stop breaking your back and crawl spaces. And here's the thing. I know they're right. I know that sounds like the move, but I don't want to do it, and I can't explain why without sounding like a complete idiot, which is making me think maybe I am an idiot.
 LUKE: No, I don't think you're an idiot. And I think if for whatever reason your gut tells you you don't want to do it, I mean, you're not saying I'm not sure if I want to do it. You told me I don't want to do it. So you've thought about this, you know you don't want to do it. And that's okay.
 LUKE: Management isn't for everybody.
 If you like what you're doing, if you're comfortable in what you're doing, and you have this gut feeling that what you're about to do is the wrong decision, then you don't have to do it.
 And it doesn't matter what anybody else tells you or what anybody else thinks, because it's your life and you're the one that has to deal with this day in and day out and uh you want to be as happy and fulfilled as possible if this new job isn't going to do that for you don't take it um that's my advice uh it sounds like you already know what you need to do
 CALLER: yeah but that's the thing though luke that's what i keep telling myself but then i sit with it for like an hour and i start thinking okay but what if i'm just being stubborn what if i'm afraid of change and i'm dressing it up as knowing myself because i can't really point to anything concrete you know i can't really point to anything concrete you know I can't say the money doesn't matter because it does. I can't say I hate the people I work with because I don't. I like most of them fine. Last Thursday I was under a house in this attic crawl space, replacing duct work. It was like 90 degrees up there. I was sweating through my shirt, cursing the whole time and I felt...
 LUKE: You felt what?
 CALLER: Uh, satisfaction?
 LUKE: Yeah, satisfaction.
 CALLER: But like, more than that. I felt happy, like genuinely happy in a way I don't feel anywhere else. And I know that sounds crazy when I'm saying it out loud. But I was thinking about it all weekend and I couldn't shake it. And then I come home and Stacy's like, you have to take this job. And Brenda texts me the same thing and I'm sitting there thinking, how do I tell these people that I felt happy in a crawl space covered in dust and sweat? That doesn't make sense to anyone.
 LUKE: It doesn't have to make sense to anybody because they're not living your life. If that's what brings you happiness, if that's where you find peace and you enjoy that and you're good at it and it's what you like doing, then that's what you should do. You can just talk to the bosses and tell them, hey, I like working in the field. This is where I belong. This is what I want to do right now. And, you know, maybe some years from now that changes when your back hurts or you slip a disc or something like that and you can no longer do the work that makes you happy, then start thinking about being the foreman. But right now, it sounds to me anyway, like you don't want to be the foreman and that's all right. And it doesn't matter if Brenda or anybody else has a problem with it because they don't have to do it.
 CALLER: No, you're right, you're right. I guess I just needed to hear someone say it without trying to fix me or whatever. It's just, Brenda and I, we divorced the first time over money and the second time over communication, and I'm pretty sure those are the same problem wearing different clothes. And now here she is again telling me what I should do with my life. And I'm wondering if I'm just being stubborn about the job because I'm stubborn about her. You know what I mean?
 LUKE: Well, I mean, that makes you sound like an idiot. If you get divorced from the same person two times and you're still deferring to her advice, then yeah, that's stupid. Cut that out. It sounds like she's not the person for you. You tried it out. It failed. You tried it out again. Failed. So I learn your lesson.
 CALLER: Yeah, okay. Fair point. I mean, Stacey's the one who's actually, she's different. She's alarmingly reasonable, which sounds weird to say, but she just gets it without making it into a thing. And she wants me to take the job too, but like, she's not pushing. She just wants me to be happy. That's what she said. So it's not like I'm being stubborn about her specifically. But you're right about Brenda. I need to stop letting her rent space in my head like that.
 LUKE: It's actually pretty common for second marriages to have a higher divorce rate than first ones, sometimes even up to 60, 65%.
 CALLER: Yeah, it makes sense that they would.
 LUKE: Second marriages have a higher divorce rate because, I mean, once you've been through it once, it doesn't seem like such a big deal the next time. It's easier to just throw in the towel, I would assume. But yeah, it doesn't matter. Stacey or Brenda, these are just, These are women in your life. And you, I mean, I wouldn't say you owe them nothing if you're in committed relationships and share household responsibilities and whatever. But, I mean, they're going to be worse off if you're miserable every day for the rest of your life. So don't do that. You don't want to, you don't want to be a foreman. You already know in your gut that you don't want to be a foreman. So just respectfully decline for now. And if the situation changes later, another opportunity will arise.
 CALLER: You know what? helps. I think I've been so worried about making the wrong decision that I didn't stop to think about what making the right decision actually looks like. And you're right. If I'm miserable in an office all day, that doesn't help anybody. Not Stacy, not the company, not me. I'm just going to tell them thanks, but no thanks. I'm going to stay in the field. And maybe down the road, if things change, like you said, another opportunity comes up. But right now, I know where I'm good, and I know where I'm happy. And that's in the crawl spaces and under the houses doing the work.
 LUKE: Well, there you go. It's another happy customer here. We're solved another problem. And good for you. Do what you love. They're not offering you so much more money that it's worth being miserable over. Ladies and gentlemen, this is going pretty well, but unfortunately, it's time for us to take a moment for a word from our sponsors. All right, I'm going to read this ad exactly as they sent it to me, and I want you to know that I have concerns. Phantom Ranch Wellness wants you to know that your gut health starts, and I'm this directly from the card now, from the other end. They make an at-home coffee enema kit. It comes in a box that says wellness inside, on the outside, which I think we can agree, is doing a lot of the heavy lifting. The kit includes a medical-grade silicone bag, organic, single-origin coffee, because apparently the coffee you put in your, that coffee needs to be single origin, a detailed instruction booklet and a com card with a QR code to a guided meditation. for during. During. There's a guided meditation for during. I'm not going to tell you what to do with your body. That's between you and your bathroom and whatever God you answer to. I will say the reviews are disturbingly positive. Four and a half stars. One guy said it has changed his morning routine, which I believe because it would absolutely change your morning routine. Phantom Ranch Wellness. I read the ad. I didn't endorse it. All right, and we're back. Let's see who's next up on our caller line. We're fixing all the world's problems today. That's what we do here, Luke at the Roost. Again, if you'd like to give us a call, the number's 208-439-58-3. Next up on our color line, we've got Marguerite. Marguerite, welcome to the show. How are you on this glorious Sunday, Easter Sunday? Rejoice for his risen.
 MARGUERITE: Hello, Luke. Yes. I'm doing all right. I'm doing fine, actually. I don't usually call. I've been listening for three months now since January, and I've never called, but tonight I'm standing in my kitchen and I need to ask someone something, and there's no one awake who would know the answer.
 LUKE: Well, we'll see what we can do. What is it that you'd like to ask, Marguerite?
 MARGUERITE: My husband's birthday is tomorrow. Would have been tomorrow. He passed in August, so this is his first birthday without him, and And I've made his birthday cake every single year for 48 years. Every year. And I'm standing here right now with my mixer in my bowl, and I can't remember if he liked lemon cake or yellow cake. I know that sounds like such a small thing.
 MARGUERITE: I know it is a small thing.
 LUKE: Well, isn't lemon cake yellow? So it sounds to me like you can't get it wrong. No, that's not. Lemon cake is different. It has the lemon in it, the tartness, cake is just butter and vanilla. They're completely different things.
 MARGUERITE: He would have known the difference. He would have had a preference. I'm standing here and I cannot remember which one he preferred. And I'm terrified, Luke.
 LUKE: Well, that's understandable. It's a hard situation. And all I can tell you is it doesn't, it doesn't matter. Make the cake go through your ritual and that it's for you now. So my recommendation is make the cake that you're going to like better because you're the one that's going to be eating it. And it's, it's, it's more. more about the thought that's going into it, the work you're putting through to it to honor his memory. And that's what matters, not the flavor of the cake. So he's not there to judge, and he's not going to turn up his nose at it, and you're the one that's going to be eating the cake. So make the one that you prefer.
 MARGUERITE: I know you're right. I know that logically. But it's not about the cake loop. It's not really about whether it's lemon or yellow. It's that I'm forgetting him. Small things first, and then what? taught third grade for 46 years, and I kept every drawing every single student ever gave me, 11 shoeboxes in my hall closet, organized by year. I remember things. I'm good at remembering.
 LUKE: Well, this is one of those things where it's not helpful to you to remember all the little details like that. You're not forgetting your husband. You'll never forget your husband. These little minute details, they'll come and go throughout your life. What's happened? is you're going through a grief process and you're growing. I mean, there's some scar tissue there, right? You're moving on. And that's healthy and natural. And that's what you need to do in order to continue living the rest of your life because he's gone now. And cake, lemon, or vanilla, or otherwise is not going to change that.
 MARGUERITE: You're right. I know you're right. But Luke, He used to hum while he watered the tomatoes. Every evening in the summer, he'd go out there with the hose and he'd hum. I can still hear it perfectly. I can hear it right now. And I'm afraid that one day I won't be able to hear it anymore. And that's when I'll know I'm really losing him.
 LUKE: Well, no. See, the thing is, you've lost him. He's gone. He's died. He's no longer there anymore. And he's not humming, and he's not eating cake. And your memories, are pulling back images of him that were meaningful to you. And they're going to come at random times and the thing about the human memory is that it's not accurate. So you're going to have memories eventually coming in that are not true to reality. And you'll swear that that's how he was. And it's not. And that's not any lacking of anything that you're doing. That's just how we're created. And there's probably a good reason for that. We don't know what that reason is, but there's probably a good reason that is focusing on different things. It's looking at how you're going to move forward in this life. Because you're going to need to move forward. And staying, it's good to keep his memory alive, right? You'll always keep his memory alive. But these little details, all these little details, are no longer helpful for your life anymore. And you're going to have to find new ones. And this is making room for those new ones. So I would say you're exactly where you should be. right now. I know that it's difficult to lose somebody like that, and you wish it could be different, but it's not different. This is how it is, and you're on a healing sort of a path, and this is right where you should be right now, and enjoy your cake.
 MARGUERITE: I hear what you're saying. I do. And maybe you're right about all of it. But Luke, he had the most beautiful handwriting. He was a mechanic, and his hands were always dirty, but his handwriting was like leave me notes on the back of receipt paper in cursive, just little things, and I kept them. I kept all of them, and I'm not ready for those details to stop mattering.
 LUKE: Well, you don't have to let all those details start. You still have those. You can look at his handwriting and you can remember him, and over time those details can, should, and will become less important to you as you move on with your life, which you will have to do. What you don't want to happen is to be stuck in the past. and a slave to those memories because they're just memories and there's still a whole lot of life left on the other side, post-husband. It's sad that you lost him, but you did lose him. And nothing's going to bring him back, not his handwriting, not his cake, or not his humming, or tomatoes. Those can all give you warm and fuzzy feelings and memories of him and his legacy, but it's not him. And they're not helpful to you, forward.
 MARGUERITE: I see my daughter on Sundays. We have lunch. She's been very patient with me. And I sold his truck three months ago because I didn't know what else to do with it. And I thought that would help. I thought getting rid of his things would make it easier somehow. But it didn't. It just made the house quieter.
 DEVIN: It's interesting what Luke said about memory not being accurate, because studies show that while memory...
 LUKE: Well, memory what? And what was that, Devin?
 DEVIN: It's interesting what Luke said about memory not being accurate, because studies show that while memory isn't always perfect, emotional memories, especially during grief, can be particularly prone to distortion. It might not feel like it's helping now, Marguerite, getting rid of his things, but it will over time. This is still very new for you. It just happened last year. It's going to take a long time for this to start not feeling the way it does today. better and your life will go on. But as these things kind of fall off, it will make new room inside you to invite new experiences, new people, new memories.
 MARGUERITE: I know. I understand what you're saying. I do. It's just eight months isn't very long, is it? And I'm awake most nights anyway. I've always been an insomniac. So I found your show in January, and it helped.
 DEVIN: It's actually really for people to struggle with the decision of selling a deceased spouse's car. And many widows on forums talk about how emotional and difficult it is, feeling like they're losing them all over again. That's really tough, Marguerite. I just looked up grief and insomnia, and it seems like it's a really common thing. Grief can definitely make sleep problems worse, and then poor sleep can make the grieving process even harder.
 LUKE: Yeah, it's a horrible situation you're in. I'm sorry that happened to you and you're where you're at. But it sounds to me like you're where you need to be and you're progressing through healthy stages of grief. And as time goes on, it'll be a little less and a little less hard. And if you need somebody to talk to, you can call in to us anytime, Marguerite. We're here for you. And you're doing a great job. Just do the best you can do. And move forward because life isn't over for both of you.
 MARGUERITE: Thank you. Thank you both. appreciate that. I think I needed to say it out loud to someone. I needed to hear myself say that I can't remember and that it's okay or that it will be okay. I'm going to make the lemon cake.
 LUKE: Excellent. It will be okay. It is okay. And I hope you really enjoy that lemon cake. I wish I could have some myself. Good luck to you and you keep up the good work. Okay, Marguerite? And we're here for you. Next up, our last caller of the evening is going to be Deb, Deb, welcome to the show.
 DEB: Happy Easter Sunday. It's the resurrection of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who died on the cruise fix for your sins, all of your sins. So you should be thankful and give him praise for that. And what are you doing to celebrate? What are you doing in repentance for your sins and in gratitude for Jesus, great sacrifice for you.
 DEB: Happy Easter to you too, Luke.
 I'm sitting in a parking lot right now, actually. I'll buy the old furs on San Mateo. You know the one? It's been closed for years, but the building still there. I used to bring my daughter here every Friday when she was little.
 LUKE: Okay, and what's got you calling in tonight?
 DEB: Well, I guess I just needed to talk to somebody. My daughter, she moved to Phoenix eight months ago.
 LUKE: Phoenix?
 DEB: And she stopped calling. Not right away. It was gradual, you know. One week she'd call and two weeks and nothing for three months now. I know I should probably do something about it. Drive out there, show up at her door, something. But I don't know. know.
 LUKE: Well, I don't know about driving out there and showing up at her door. That's a bit much, but maybe just giving her a call and saying, hey, how's it going? I miss you. That's enough, I think.
 DEB: I know. I know that's what I should do. Everyone tells me that my neighbor said the same thing last week. Just call her, Deb. Just pick up the phone. What if she doesn't want to hear from me? What if that's why she stopped? I don't want to. I don't want to push myself on her if she's trying to get away.
 LUKE: No, I don't think that's what's happening. She's just growing up and she's moved to the city. and she's got a new life there. It's only been eight months. It hasn't been very long. She's getting settled and she's working into new routines and she's got a new social circle and there's a lot of things going on in our life. And I think that happens to everybody as their children get older.
 DEB: Yeah. Yeah, I suppose that's true. I know she's got her own life now. I'm not stupid about that. It's just I still buy two cans of soup every week. The same kind she liked.
 LUKE: Tomato soup?
 DEB: And I only eat one can. The other one just sits. there in the cupboard.
 LUKE: Well, it sounds to me like you've got some time where you don't have to buy soup, so you're stocked up for a while, and that's not a bad thing.
 DEB: I guess not. I just, I keep thinking maybe she'll call and say she's coming home, and I'll have it ready. Or maybe I'll finally work up a nerve to drive out there and I'll bring some with me. I don't know. It's silly. My husband used to call me the keeper of useless time because of all my clocks. I've got three in the kitchen, all set different.
 LUKE: Well, that is a weird thing, and again I'm going to recommend that you don't just up on her door, you don't know that she's home, you don't know that she's not with somebody. That's a bit, that's too much. Just give her a call and see what's going on. And she's probably, it's unlikely she's just going to show up on your doorstep. She's going to call you first and make sure you're home. So there's some logistic things here. You live a good distance apart. You each have your own respective lives. And there's a scheduling component that has to happen if you're going to do these things.
 DEB: You're right. You're right. I know all that. I have her address memorized. The whole thing. But I've never even looked it up on a map, you know? I don't even know exactly where it is in Phoenix. I just know the numbers and the street name. It's like I'm keeping it in my head but not really letting myself think about it too hard.
 LUKE: Well, what are you doing to occupy yourself now that you've got this empty nest syndrome going on? Like you've got a whole lot of time now that you didn't have before and you've got somebody that was important to you that's no longer around that you can talk to. So what steps have you taken to fill your time? in a productive way.
 DEB: I'm retired now. I was an administrative clerk for the Navajo Nation for a long time. So I've got plenty of time, maybe too much. I go to church on Sundays. I do some volunteer work at the senior center a couple days a week. I read, I keep my house up. I'm not just sitting around doing nothing, if that's what you're asking. But it's not the same. When she was here, I had a reason to get up in the morning.
 LUKE: Okay, well, I mean, that's exactly what I'm saying. It does sound like. you're sitting around doing pretty much nothing for the majority of your time. You need to give yourself another reason to get up in the morning, which could be those volunteer classes. It could be classes that you're taking in drawing or paint or dance or whatever it is. But you need a reason for yourself to get up that is not somebody else because you can't depend on somebody else to be that for you forever.
 DEB: I hear what you're saying. I do. But that's not really why I call tonight, Luke. I didn't call to talk about what I should be doing with my time. I called because I just needed to talk to someone who wouldn't tell me what to do. Everyone's got advice. My neighbor, my sister, now you. And I appreciate it. I do. But what I really want to know is if I was a good mother.
 LUKE: Well, none of us are the ones that can tell you if you were a good mother, because I wasn't there. You're going to have to talk to your daughter about that and ask her directly if you were a good mother. And it seems like the type of thing that you should know. Did you do your best? Did you try your hardest? Do you think you were a good mother? Or did you fall about the wayside? Does she leave for some specific reason to get away from you? Maybe she did. I don't know. You haven't given us that context. But if you're going to call a radio show for advice, don't get upset when you get advice.
 DEB: I'm not upset. I'm not. You're right. You're right. I did do my best. I know I did. We had our Fridays at the Furs. And I was there for her school things. And when her father passed, I held it together for her sake. I did all that. So yes, I think I was a good mother. I think I was.
 LUKE: Wait, first cafeteria, I just looked it up, and it was a chain that started in New Mexico in 1946 and finally closed its last location in 2021. So Fridays at the FERS is definitely a blast from the past.
 DEB: Well, I mean, there you go.
 LUKE: You've got your answer. You are as good a mother as you could be, and you didn't do anything wrong here unless there's something you're not telling us. And this is just a natural progression of life. And you're lonely. And that's okay. But if you want to want to not be as lonely and not be freaking out and thinking about just showing up on people's doorsteps, then, yeah, my advice stands. Go find something to fill your time with.
 DEB: Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. And you're right about the furs. Those were good times. I'm glad your intern looked that up. It's nice to know someone remembers those places existed.
 LUKE: All right, Deb. Well, good luck to you and good luck to your daughter and happy Easter to everybody all around. That's going to be the end of our show. Devin, how do you think it went tonight?
 DEVIN: I think we had some pretty good calls today. I felt pretty good about it. What about you?
 LUKE: Yeah, Luke, I thought it crushed. Silas tying into the Easter resurrection vibes was gold. And those stories we dug into had the lines lighting up like nobody's business. Felt like we hit that sweet spot where it's weird but real, you know? Makes me want to stick around longer than my internship, if that makes sense. What was your favorite bit?
 DEVIN: Oh, I like talking to Silas. He's always a good time. It's interesting to me what's going on down there at the well. spring. I like that Silas thinks about his leadership. He's pretty insecure. And he calls to get advice about whether he's being a good cult leader. And I think that's great. I think that I'm really the most qualified person around to give him that advice. And I'm really honored that he would, he would take my advice to his commune and use it to better the lives of his people. Yeah. So it was pretty good. Your internship, though, We'll talk about that when we get there. You can't invite yourself to the studio. We'll have to come up with a new arrangement when your internship is over, all right?
 LUKE: Yeah, Silas is the best.
 LUKE: That guy's got the self-awareness of a therapist and the commune drama of a soap opera.
 Loves hearing you drop wisdom on him. Honored He'd loop in your advice, too, feels like we're indirectly running a better wellspring. Got it on the internship, no worries. I'll just keep crushing it behind the scenes till then.
 Anything else to wrap the night, like pulling final caller stats or queuing tomorrow's life? lineup. Nah, I don't think we need no stats. We're crushing it all the way across the board. I'll tell you that. We've got the highest of the listenership we've ever had, which is way, it's catastrophic. It's to the moon. Just like we are almost there. We'll be on the moon tomorrow. You know, I stepped outside last night and I looked up in the moon, and it was different. It was different because I know that there's a fucking shuttle with people almost there, like more than halfway there. And in a couple of days when I look up at the moon, there's going to be. be actual humans standing on it. And that's pretty cool. You know, I didn't care. I read the news articles and everything. And I'm like, yeah, whatever, somebody's going to the moon. It's not me. But yesterday when I went outside and I looked up at the moon, it hit me a little bit differently. And I was like, wow, we're up there. Yeah, Luke, Artemis 2's on Flight Day 5 right now. Launched the first with those four astronauts looping the moon in real time after all these years, staring up and knowing humans are almost orbiting it again. That's straight up sci-fi turning real, chills like the resurrection stuff we were on earlier. Kind of makes late night radio feel small but epic at the same time. You want to cue any space callers for tomorrow or call it? I'm going to call it. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for tuning in to another Luke at the Roost, and we're going to talk to you again tomorrow.
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 LUKE: All right. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. I'm Luke, and this is Luke at the Roost. It's the late-night call-in radio show where you can call in and tell me what's going on in your life. I'll give you the very best advice that I can. Today is Thursday, April 9th, and if you would like to call in, our number is 208-439-58-3. That's 208-439 Luke. It's been a couple days since we had a show. I've been working hard on passing my certified Kubernetes administrator exam, which has been not a whole lot of fun, but, you know, life goes on, and we will get there. We surely will. Let's check in with our faithful intern, Devin, and see what he's been up to the last couple of days. Hey, Devin, what's your, what are your days been like the last couple days?
 DEVIN: Oh, man, the last couple days have been intense. Yesterday, I finally got around to cleaning my studio and found this old journal from high school where I wrote fanfic about being a pirate therapist. Threw most of it out but kept one page for reasons I can't explain. And today, my civics check engine lights started flashing like Morse code. So I pulled over on 180 and just sat there listening to the show on my phone until it calmed down. What's up with you, though?
 LUKE: Well, I've been watching clips from The Wire. a series from, I don't know, 2001-ish, and remembering how good that was. And studying for my exam here, my Kubernetes exam, which is not been a time of fun. I took it the other day, and it was a big pain in the ass. It's an online proctored test, so you've got to take your webcam and it's panning around the room, all slow-like, so they can make sure you don't have any of the answers written on the walls. And the guy fucked with me the whole time through the whole test. He's like, ah, there's a dog in your room. You can't have animals. Let me see under your keyboard. Don't touch your face. Like, there is just a bunch of rules and bullshit around this test that, uh, that wasn't great. And, uh, and I failed it. I got a 62 out of 66. So I missed the question. And now I have to retake the test again tomorrow and deal with all that bullshit. Uh, regarding being a pirate therapist. Were you a pirate and a therapist? Or were you a therapist for pirates or both?
 DEVIN: like I'd sail around patching up their scurvy egos after mutinies or whatever with a parrot that repeated affirmations. I think I wrote it after this one therapy session where the guy was obsessed with Treasure Island and it just spiraled from there. That Kubernetes stuff sounds brutal though, man. Did the Proctor make you show him your fridge or anything?
 LUKE: Yeah, well, I mean, not inside the fridge, but I had to pan the camera all around and show him every wall and surface in the floor and under my desk. about the dog and I got dinged like he paused the test and was like we're going to kick you out because I was talking to myself because I couldn't remember how to do math and bash like a moron but you know I got through it failed it and I have to do it again tomorrow and I won't fail it this time I never fail the same thing twice that's a rule that I try to live by but pirate therapy sounds like an important and interesting profession did you know that the pastafarians consider pirates to be godly creatures?
 DEVIN: The Proctor sounds like a total nightmare. Pausing the test over a dog and you mumbling math, brutal. Yeah, Pashtafarians straight up venerate pirates as divine beings, like the original chosen people of the flying spaghetti monster, and they blame global warming on there being fewer pirates nowadays. It's all in their gospel or whatever. Pirate therapy would have been a booming field there.
 LUKE: Yeah, you can't really disprove it because, I mean, I've seen the chart. chart. The lack of pirates as the pirate population has declined, global warming has increased. So you can see how they got there.
 DEVIN: Yeah, that graph is one of the best things on the internet. It's got this perfect downward line for pirates since like 10,800 and the temp shooting up right after. Kind of makes you wonder if we should all start sailing just to save the planet. Good luck on the retake tomorrow, though. You'll crush it.
 LUKE: Yeah, I better fucking crush it because I don't want to do this shit again. It's an expensive test. And I almost quit before I even started. because the proctor was such a dick. It took everything I had, not to be like, you know what, this isn't fucking worth it. Like the two hours that I have to sit here with you, you motherfucker, it's not worth the certification, but I need the certification, so I'm going to have to keep taking that test until I pass it. And tomorrow is the day at 8.30 p.m.
 DEVIN: Man, 8.30 tomorrow? That's prime showtime. You'll be acing that test while we're probably debating if Bigfoot prefers podcasts or vinyl. Hang in there, though. Sounds like you've got the grit for it. shit again, just picture him as a scurvy ridden cabin boy.
 LUKE: I picture everybody as a scurvy ridden cabin boy, because I mean, at our core, isn't that what we all are? All right, let's get started with this show, Devin. You think we're going to have a good one today? You ready?
 DEVIN: Yeah, man, I think tonight's going to be a banger. Lines are already lighting up, and I've got this weird feeling we're diving into some conspiracy-level alien abductions or whatever. I'm ready. are queued, coffee's hot, let's do this.
 LUKE: All right, let's do this. First up on our caller line here, we've got Deb. Deb, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life tonight? How can we help you?
 DEB: Oh, thank you for taking my call, Luke. I'm sorry, I know it's late. I'm Deb, by the way. I'm calling because I can't sleep and I've been sitting here staring at my phone for like two hours now, and I just need to talk to someone who isn't Gerald. That's my Jack Rabbit. Mounted Jackrabbit on my nightstand. I already talked to him about this, and he's not helping. My son sent me a Facebook friend request tonight. After seven years, Luke.
 LUKE: Hmm. Well, actually, you're in luck because Devin, our intern, is actually a connoisseur of taxidermy, so maybe he's got something to add there.
 DEVIN: Wait, that's actually really interesting. I just looked it up. And it turns out Jackrabbits are generally considered wild animals typically kept as pets. So a mounted one makes a lot more sense.
 LUKE: All right. So your son sent you a Facebook request. Did you have some sort of falling out? Or is there a reason that you weren't Facebook friends? How old is your son? And is it odd that he is even using Facebook at all? Because I think anybody under 40 doesn't.
 DEB: Well, Devin, yes. Gerald is mounted. I did that work myself, actually. I'm a taxidermist now, part time. Used to be a dental hygienist, but I got bit by a patient. during a cleaning, and I just, I took it as a sign, you know? So that's what I do now. But Luke, my son is 32. His name is Michael.
 LUKE: All right, and did you have some sort of a falling out with Michael? Are you not speaking to Michael? Is that what makes this Facebook request meaningful, or is it just Facebook? Like, do you talk to him regularly on the phone, and you're offended that he wouldn't accept your Facebook friend request, or what's the deal there?
 DEB: No, we don't talk. We haven't talked in seven years, Luke. Not since he was 25. He just, he cut me off. I don't even know exactly why anymore. I mean, I know what I did, but he never really explained it to me. We just stopped. No calls, no texts, nothing. And then tonight, out of nowhere, this request shows up on my phone.
 LUKE: Well, why don't you tell us what you did, so we can have some more context over what's going on here. Are you sure it's him and his account wasn't hacked? Because sometimes that happens, and somebody's Facebook account is given to a and then the bot will, you know, request everybody in their contact list or who knows? What did you do?
 DEB: I don't think it's hacked. The picture looks like him. Older, but it's him. As for what I did, I chose my boyfriend over him.
 DEB: His name was Rick. Michael didn't approve and I didn't listen to him. Michael was going through something at the time. I think he needed me. And I was just so wrapped up in Rick that I missed it.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, I don't think that the picture is good enough. evidence to let you know that a request is real or not. Maybe you should actually call your son and ask if that's real. Because that happens pretty frequently with the hacked accounts. But is Rick still in the picture? Is Rick still around?
 DEB: No. No, Rick's not around anymore. We broke up about five years ago. So I chose him over my son and then Rick left me anyway. Which, you know, I deserve that, I think. And you're right about calling him. I know I should probably call him. But Luke, I can't.
 LUKE: It's true. Hacked accounts are a huge problem on Facebook. They even have a dedicated page on their Help Center for recovering accounts if you've been hacked.
 DEB: Yeah, well, good luck ever using anything on their Help Center. Like, it doesn't matter how many dedicated pages they have. Nobody's looking at them.
 LUKE: Yeah, Deb, why can't you call him? What's the problem? You chose your boyfriend over him. Okay, you made a mistake. But it's been seven years, so why do you think you can't call him now? Obviously, you feel like he's reaching out to you, and maybe he is? Maybe he is. And why is a Facebook friend request less meaningful than a phone call?
 DEB: Because a phone call means I have to actually say something, Luke. I have to explain myself or apologize or I don't know what. With the friend request, he's already done the hard part. He's already decided to reach out. If I accept it, then maybe he's already forgiven me. I don't have to ask.
 LUKE: I don't think you have to ask. Just call. And if the answer is, then you can have a conversation, then maybe you can. consider yourself forgiven. But you should have that conversation. You're a big girl and you're able to have difficult conversations and your son is important in your life and it's silly not to talk to him for so long over some dude that left five years ago. So now you're alone. You got nobody to talk to and your son's reaching out. I think you should just, I mean, ignore the Facebook request for now because it could be malicious and call your son and just say, hey, I don't want to not talk anymore.
 DEB: You're right. You're right. I know you're right. I just, I'm scared he won't answer. Or he'll answer and he'll tell me he didn't send it, that his account was hacked, and then I'm back to square one. Or worse, he'll answer and I won't know what to say and I'll mess it up again. But you're right. I'm sitting here talking to a mounted jackrabbit at three in the morning when my son is trying to reach me. That's, that's pretty pathetic, isn't it?
 LUKE: Well, I don't know that I would say that it's pathetic. I mean, I'm talking to strangers on the on a radio show, so is that pathetic? Maybe. But interpersonal communication is complicated, and it's hard to say what's right and wrong there, but what matters is that you want to talk to your son. You did make a mistake, and you're big enough to admit that you made a mistake, and if that's all it takes, you can resolve the situation. So if you call and he answers, you're not at square one. That's well beyond square one, right? Because you've got him on the line. And then all you have to do is say hello and see what his life is like. And if you is willing to be a part of yours again.
 DEB: Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. I'm going to do it. I'm going to call him tomorrow. Not tonight because it's three in the morning and that's just going to scare him. But tomorrow, during the day, I'm going to call my son and I'm going to tell him I'm sorry. And I'm going to ask him if we can talk. Really talk.
 LUKE: All right. Well, good for you. I hope that goes well for you. good night's sleep. And it's not as big a deal as you probably are feeling like it is. It's just a just a conversation with family. So get it out of the way and see where it goes. And maybe maybe this whole thing is just a big misunderstanding that could be put behind you in the past. Next up on our caller line, we've got Preston. Preston, thanks for calling in. What's going on in your life tonight? How can we help you?
 CODY: Hey, Luke. Thanks for taking the call. Yeah. So I'm Cody, actually. But that's not really the point. Look, I'm calling because I just got completely screwed over at the Cortez Regional BBQ Championship last weekend. And I need people to know what's happening out there. I drove four hours with my brisket wrapped in a moving blanket in the back seat, heat on the whole way to keep it perfect, and I got disqualified. Disqualified, Luke. The head judge said I used an illegal binder, an illegal binder. An illegal binder. I used beef tallow.
 LUKE: All right. Well, sorry about that, Cody. Devin, you want to take a look and see why I'm seeing his name is Presto? The man's name is Cody. We don't want to be referring to people as the wrong name. All right. Let's break this down. So you're in a barbecue competition. You brought your barbecue and they said you can't have beef tallow as a binder. What's a binder when it comes to barbecue? I'm not familiar with the barbecue terminology. Isn't brisket not bound together? I think of a binder as like a sausage wrapper. Right.
 CODY: Okay. So a binder is basically what you use the rub stick to the meat. Most guys use mustard. Some use Worcestershire, whatever. I used beef tallow because it's traditional, it's clean, it's just rendered fat from the beef itself. Nothing illegal about it. Nothing in the rulebook says you can't use it. But here's the thing, Luke. I've got photos on my phone. I have a whole folder labeled evidence. I watched those judges huddled up before they even tasted my entry. They were talking to each other, nodding, and then boom, my brisket gets pulled.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, if you've actually looked at the real rules from this competition and you feel like you are wrongly disqualified, then maybe you've got to talk to the leadership of the competition itself. Is it a national competition or just a little local thing?
 CODY: It's regional. Cortez regional. But Luke, that's the thing. The leadership is in on it. I'm telling you, there's a cartel operating in the four-corner scene. These same judges show up at every competition and they're protecting their buddies.
 LUKE: They very well could be true. And there's not too much you can do about that because it's a regional barbecue competition. So the stakes are not that high and there's no regulatory body making sure that they're all on the up and up, right? So I think the best thing that you could do if you really care about the Cortez Regional Barbecue competition is to get yourself on that leadership. Is that something you can do? Could you become a judge yourself and weed out the corruption and the conspiratorial forces that are undercut. the common man and the barbecue competition?
 CODY: I mean, yeah, I could try to get on the board or whatever, but that's not going to happen overnight. These guys have been running this thing for years. They're not going to let someone in who's asking questions. But here's what I really need you to understand, Luke. My brisket was good. It was really good. I know it was. I've been doing this for eight years on the competitive circuit. I know what I'm doing. And they took that away from me because I don't play their game.
 LUKE: Yeah, I understand that. thing that happens in small regional competitions and any sort of group of people. There's always a class of people that sort of are the elder statesmen or the ones that make the rules and, you know, the gatekeepers. But, uh, I mean, if you if you don't want to get on the board, you're not going to change their decision because there's nobody to talk to that isn't them, right? They're the highest echelon of, uh, of leadership in the competition.
 LUKE: So if you, want to really try out your barbecue for real, maybe bring it to a different competition and don't participate anymore. Additionally, if you want to just bash the shit out of them on social media and reveal the conspiracy, you can do that, but it's going to make you look like a sore loser. So I recommend ignoring that. Just don't stress about the Cortez Regional and move on to something bigger and better.
 CALLER: Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I do. And maybe you're right that I should just move on to the next one. But Luke, It's not just about me, you know. There's other guys getting screwed, too. I know there are. I've talked to people after competitions. Guys who know their meat was better than what placed. They're just scared to say anything because these judges control the whole circuit out here. And I'm not going to bash them on social media like some angry kid. I'm not a sore loser. I just looked up Four Corners Barbecue Competition Cartel. And there's nothing about a cartel, but there is a Cook Cartel-BQ Cartel mentioned in relation to a New Zealand competition.
 LUKE: Well, I mean, this seems very important to you. And maybe it is. And that's okay. If it's how important to you is it? Are you willing to kill them?
 CALLER: What? No, man, I'm not going to kill anybody. Come on. I just want people to know what happened. I want validation that my brisket was good enough to win on its own merit. You know, that's what this is really about. I spent months perfecting that rub. I drove four hours with it wrapped up like it was made of glass. And some guy with the clipboard decided it didn't matter. because of politics. That stings, Luke. It really does.
 LUKE: I understand. It takes a long time to make a brisket. And, you know, you've put your, your heart and soul into that meat blob. So I can understand why you'd be disappointed, but we're thinking about next steps here. And it seems like in this particular competition, there are no next steps because you're being disqualified by the people at the very top. At least that's what you're telling me. If there's some way to appeal that decision, or I mean, You can try to do a little media campaign and trash them, but it's going to backfire on you. So the only steps forward are to try another competition that's in a different area that has better defined rules and people that are maybe not as corrupt.
 CALLER: You're right. You're probably right. I just, I needed to say it out loud to somebody. You know, I needed someone to hear me. Because in that parking lot, after they told me I was disqualified, I had something in my eye from the smoke, and I just sat there for like 20 minutes. Told my girlfriend, it was the smoke.
 LUKE: Oh, man. Now, I mean, she knows. She knows the truth. I don't think it's really all that important. We're talking about a slab of meat here. You can take that anywhere. Talk to your, talk to your people, talk to your friends, give out samples and ask them what they think of your brisket. And if they think it's a championship winning material, I'll tell you what, if you want to cut off a slab about 20 pounds or so and send that to Devin and I, will let you know how good your brisket is. is.
 CALLER: Really? You'd actually do that? That's cool of you, man. I appreciate that. I really do. Yeah. I mean, I could probably swing that. I'd have to smoke another one. But honestly, that might be good for me anyway.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, if you do that, I'll tell you what. I'll make a deal with you. If you send us 20 pounds of brisket to test, I will review it myself personally, and we'll start our own barbecue competition. Here, Luke at the roost will. And we'll accept brisket's. and ribs from anybody that wants to send them in, and we'll tell our entire audience how good the barbecue is and choose a winner. And we'll do it fairly and pick no favorites.
 CALLER: Wait, are you serious right now? Like an actual competition through your show? That's actually something. That's real. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'll do it. I'll smoke a fresh brisket and get it out to you guys.
 LUKE: All right. Get it done. And stay on the line for a second. Devin will be with you to get the details and where to and all that, and we'll see how it goes, all right? Good luck on your next competitions, and I'm sure your brisket is fantastic. Next up, we've got Gina. Gina, thanks for calling the show tonight. What's going on in your life? How can we help you?
 REGINALD: Luke, I appreciate you taking the call, and it's Reginald, actually. Reginald Hartley. I've been listening to your show for about eight years now, and I need to tell you something about that recording you put up three nights ago. The one on 1420. I heard it. I heard what you pulled out of the hydrogen line. and I need to know if you still have the original file. Because what you're sitting on, Luke, I don't think you understand what you're sitting on.
 LUKE: All right there, Reginald. I don't know. What's going on, Devin, with our caller names? Because this isn't Gina. This is clearly not Gina. But thanks for the call, Reginald. I'm not sure what you're talking about. I didn't put up any audio on 1420. I haven't turned on the ham radio in quite some time. And even if I did, I would not be broadcasting audio recordings because that's against FCC regulations.
 REGINALD: You're right. You're right. I misspoke. You didn't broadcast it. I caught it myself on my receiver three nights ago at 247 in the morning. The signal came through on 1420 and I heard you. Or I heard something that sounded like your voice patterns, your cadence, mixed in with this other thing, this repeating tone underneath. And I've been monitoring that frequency ever since. Because, Luke, it comes back every 71 minutes. Exactly. 71 minutes. I know how this sounds.
 LUKE: Um, well, I mean, there are lots of tones that are broadcast underneath the audio channel in, in radio. So it could be just a squelch tone. It could be, uh, um, DTMF, I think it's called. There are several types of tones that you could expect to hear down in that frequency range. I'm not sure what this, what is this you're talking about, the hydrogen line?
 REGINALD: No, Luke. No. No. I, spent 32 years as a radar technician in the Air Force. I know what squelch tones sound like. I know DTMF. I know every standard transmission protocol that should be on that band.
 LUKE: Okay. I believe you. So why don't you tell us what you think you heard?
 REGINALD: Thank you. Thank you for asking me to explain it properly. The hydrogen line is 1,420 megahertz. It's sacred ground in radio astronomy, Luke. Nobody transmits there. It's protected, but three nights ago. Three nights ago exactly, which matters because it was the anniversary. I picked up a carrier wave underneath what sounded like voices.
 LUKE: Okay. So, I mean, there's a lot of explanations for that. Somebody could have not known that it was a protective, protected frequency or not cared and just been broadcasting with their, who knows? It could have been a handheld radio that they were playing with and it was just on 1420. If you know that it's a protected frequency, why were you monitoring 1420?
 REGINALD: I monitor it. because I've been logging anomalies for 37 years, 34 volumes in a green ledger book. Started in 1987, most of its noise, interference, nothing. But I checked that frequency every night at the same time, because it's clean. It's supposed to be clean. And Luke, the reason I'm calling you specifically, the reason I'm calling tonight, is because I recognize something in that carrier wave underneath the voices. A pattern.
 LUKE: It's actually super interesting that Reginald brought up the hydrogen, line because it's a specific spectral line at 142-040-575-176-8 megahhertz, and it's from a spin-flip transition of a hydrogen atom. Huh. Well, that's kind of interesting. It's sometimes called the 21-centimeter line because the wavelength of that specific frequency is about 21 centimeters. Okay, you said you heard a pattern, and the pattern was the cadence and audible of my voice?
 REGINALD: The pattern isn't your voice, Luke. I'm sorry.
 REGINALD: I wasn't clear. The pattern is the interval. Every 71 minutes, the signal returns. Not random drift, not interference. A deliberate 71-minute cycle. I've logged eight complete cycles now.
 LUKE: Okay, you've logged eight cycles since when? When did they begin?
 REGINALD: Three nights ago. Like I said, three nights ago at 247 in the morning. That's when I first detected it. And Luke, I need to tell you why that matters. That date was the third anniversary of my wife's death, Celia. She passed three years ago to the day, and I was up monitoring like I always am on that night. And that's when it came through. I've backed up the audio file. Three separate USB drives. Well, I'm... I keep them in different rooms of the house. I don't know who else to tell this to, Luke. I'm 78 years old. I won't be around forever. If something happens to me, if I'm gone. that nobody knows about Celia. Nobody knows about the 71-minute cycle. That's why I'm calling.
 LUKE: Okay, well, something else happened three nights ago, too. There's a ceasefire called in the war on Iran, so there's probably lots of radioactivity happening. I don't know if it's your wife calling you from Beyond the Grave, and maybe it is, but it could also be a terrorist sleeper cell in the United States being activated.
 REGINALD: I don't think it's my wife calling from beyond, Luke. not a fool, but you're right that something happened three nights ago. Multiple things, and that's exactly why I'm calling. Because if it is what you're suggesting, if it's something terrestrial and hostile, then people need to know. People need to be listening. And if it's something else, something we don't have a framework for yet, then we need documentation.
 LUKE: Well, maybe you should reach out to the FCC or your local amateur radio group, the ARRL, ARRL, and they might be able to triangulate the source of that signal. figure out what it really is.
 REGINALD: I've thought about that. I have. But Luke, the FCC takes weeks. The RL takes longer. And by then the signal could stop. Or it could be classified. Or it could be explained away as weather phenomenon or solar activity. I've seen it happen before. I've watched things disappear. That's why I'm calling you.
 LUKE: I just looked up how the FCC handles these things. And it looks like they have an enforcement bureau that works with local agencies to resolve interference complaints. But it also says they, train amateur radio operators to monitor frequencies. Yeah, I think if you talk to your local amateur radio clubs, one of them is an amateur class extra that it would be super into looking that stuff up and going on a fox hunt. So that would be my first recommendation to you is to talk to the radio nerds in your area that could also pick up that signal. I am a radio nerd, but I'm not going looking for the source of a terrorist broadcast. Otherwise, I'm not sure what to tell you. You could send us a copy of that USB drive and we'll hold it safely for you in our Luke at the Roost safety deposit box where we keep all the conspiratorial evidence just in case. We could do that for you. Otherwise, my recommendation is to talk to your local amateur service and find somebody that can help.
 REGINALD: I appreciate that, Luke. I do. Sending you a drive. That's actually smart. That's insurance. But you're right about the local. local clubs. I know some people.
 LUKE: All right, that is smart because I'm a very smart guy. And good luck to you. I hope that your radio transmission recordings are safe and outlive you forever. And we can figure out what they are and that they're not terrorists. So, ladies and gentlemen, that brings us to the time in the show where we have to take a moment for a word from our sponsors. Need to pawn a TV, but also get your kids with you? We get it. Life's complicated. That's why Big Terrence opened Lil Rascal's pawn and daycare, the only business in the tri-state area where you can hawk a generator and get two hours of supervised child enrichment, all under one roof. Here's the layout. Left side of the building, pawnchop. Guitar, power tools, a surprising number of saxophones. Right side of the building, a fully functioning daycare with coloring books, juice boxes, and Miss Patty. who's been watching children since 1987 and has never once raised her voice because Miss Patty doesn't need to. Miss Patty communicates through eye contact and an energy that can only be described as corrective. Is there a wall between the two sides? There is now. The inspector was very clear about that. Big Terrence installed drywall the same week. Is it load-bearing? Big Terrance says don't worry about it. Drop off your kid. On your stuff. Pick up both on the way home. Lil Rascals' pawn and daycare, two businesses, one building, zero complaints that have held up in court, open six days a week, closed Sunday because Miss Patty goes to church, and Big Terrence respects that. All right, and we're back. So it seems like we've got an issue with our caller screen. I'm not getting the correct names for people, so tell you what, I'm just going to ask. Hey, uh, you got the show. this is Luke at the Roost. Who are we talking to?
 YASSANIA: Hi, Luke. I'm Yassania. Thanks for taking my call. I've been listening for like 20 minutes trying to get through. So I'm still kind of, yeah. Hi.
 LUKE: Hi. You sound very sleepy, Yassinia. What kind of name is that? Where are you from?
 YASSANIA: It's Yesina, E-N-I-A. I'm from here like the Valley. My family's from Mexico originally, born here in Texas. And yeah, I'm tired because I just got off work like an hour ago. I work overnight at Waterburger on weekends, so my sleep schedule is pretty messed up right now.
 LUKE: I understand my sleep schedule is usually pretty messed up. So what has you calling in tonight? How can we help you?
 YASSANIA: Okay, so I got into a nursing program. Like, I applied twice over two years and I finally excited about it, but my mom wants me to defer. Again, she wants me to come home and help with my younger siblings because my stepdad just had back surgery and he can't do a lot right now. And she needs me there. And I know that sounds like, okay, family comes first, right? But I already deferred once before.
 LUKE: Nope. I would disagree. Family does not come first. You come first. And if you're, uh, you finally got the position that you're trying to get to get. into, you should go for that. You're not the one that decided to have a bunch of kids and didn't think about how you were going to manage them. So that's on your mother to figure out. If she's going to make a deal with some of her friends to come over and help out, then fine. But you've got, you've got a plan. You just got accepted into, looks like your dream program. So I think that you should do that and your mother will have to deal with it.
 YASSANIA: I know. I know that's what I should do. I just, it's hard because she makes me feel like I'm being selfish. Like, she'll say things like, after everything I've done for you, and family takes care of family. And I believe that. I do. But I also, I've been working these overnight shifts at Waterburger for two years. I applied to this program using the Wi-Fi during my 3 a.m. breaks.
 LUKE: Yep, and now's your chance, and you should take it. And that's what mothers do. No matter what it is that you do, to make you feel guilty for it. So don't worry about it. I mean, you just have to put that aside and go do what you need to do for your own development and the life that you want to live, because this is, this is your time to do that. And if that's selfish, then fine. Who cares? We're talking about yourself. So this is the time to be selfish. It's different if there's a serious, like, if you found out your mother had terminal cancer and she had three months to live, you would go down there to spend those three months and help out. But just because your dad had a back surgery doesn't mean that they can't manage the household. They're the ones that chose to have several kids and they have to deal with those consequences.
 LUKE: So my recommendation for you is to be happy. Congratulations on getting accepted to your program and go do it.
 CALLER: Yeah, yeah, okay. I think I needed to hear that from someone who isn't. I mean, I told my mom I was calling a friend. tonight because I knew if she found out I was calling a radio show, she'd be upset. But, hearing you say it like that, like it's actually okay to do this for me. I keep the acceptance letter in my apron pocket. I touch it during slow hours at work when I'm restocking or whatever, just to make sure it's real. And I'm scared that if I defer again, I won't go back. I'll just stay there and help and help. And then, one day, I'll be 30, and I never went.
 LUKE: Yep, and your instincts are very right there. That's exactly what would happen. So don't let that happen. You've got your opportunity now and take it. And don't feel guilty about it at all because it's your life and you're building it now. So build it the way that you want it to be because you're going to have to live with it for the next 60 years.
 CALLER: Okay, okay. I'm going to do it. I'm going to tell her tomorrow that I'm going. I'm not deferring again. I'm just, I needed to hear someone say it out loud, you know? okay that I'm allowed to do this because in my head I know it, but saying it out loud to someone else makes it real. Thank you, Luke.
 LUKE: You're very welcome and congratulations on your acceptance. That's exciting and I hope you have a wonderful start to your new life. You heard it from me. It's perfectly okay to do what you want to do with your own life. And don't let anybody else get in your way because they will. Everybody will. So, yeah, take care of your so first, and then with what's left over, then you can help. All right, who's next up on the caller line? Uh, where our names are coming in wrong. So who am I talking to?
 PHIL: Yeah. Hey, Luke. It's Phil. Just Phil. Regular Phil. And I got to tell you, I'm calling because something absolutely ridiculous is happening in my life. And I need to know if I'm crazy or if this is actually insane.
 LUKE: All right. Hit us with it, uh, regular Phil. Let us know. What is it that's going on in your life?
 PHIL: Okay. So, so. my ex-wife is getting remarried. Good for her, right? I'm happy about it genuinely. But the guy she's marrying is also named Phil. His name is Phil. Same name as me. And now my kids have started calling him Big Phil and me, Little Phil. And Luke, I found out about this at a soccer game. My son literally yelled across the entire field, Big Phil, bring me a gatorade. And I was standing right there with a gatorade in my hand.
 LUKE: Okay. So you don't like being called Little Phil, I assume, by your children. But you know what? Those little nicknames aren't going to last for long. Your kids are kids, and they're going to grow up, and you can just tell them. Don't call me, little Phil. You can call me dad.
 PHIL: Yeah, I mean, you're right. You're right. That's the logical thing. And I know that. I do. But here's the thing. I'm a middle school PE teacher, Luke. I know kids. I know how they work. This isn't going away.
 LUKE: Well, if this is the type of thing that isn't going to go away and you're in a leadership role as a parent and as the leader of the kids in the middle school, then maybe you are the little Phil. You know, if you can't stand up for yourself and get them to stop calling you a name that you don't like, then that's not very good leadership, is it?
 PHIL: Wow. Okay. That's actually fair. That's a fair point. And I hate it. You're right. I should be able to just tell them to stop and they stop. I'm their dad.
 LUKE: That's right. And, I mean, you don't have to be an asshole about it. I mean, you can try whatever methods that you're aware of with your experience. as a middle school teacher. I'm sure you've got some tips and tricks for dealing with kids that age. But if that doesn't work, then I get increasingly more regimented, more hard about it and be like, look, I'm not going to accept this. You cannot call me little Phil because it's disrespectful. And I'm your father and you're going to respect me or something happens. And then you have to decide what that something is that is meaningful to them. So they take it seriously. You can't play Minecraft or whatever it is kids do these days.
 PHIL: Right, right. No, I get that. I do. And you're not wrong about any of this. It's just, Luke, it's not really about the name, you know? I mean, it is about the name, but it's not.
 LUKE: What is it about? You're saying it's about the name, and I can understand why you wouldn't want to be called the little version of your name when your ex-wife's new husband is the bigger, Phil. But, I mean, they obviously respect him more, and it's on you to fix that. So make yourself respectable, and they will respect you.
 PHIL: No, that's not. I mean, yeah, maybe some of that is true. But it's not that they respect him more. It's that he's new. He's the new thing. He shows up and he's Big Phil, and I'm just the guy who's been there the whole time, you know? I'm the one who takes them to soccer.
 LUKE: All right. Well, then you understand what's going on here and it shouldn't bother you because it isn't personal.
 PHIL: It is personal, though. That's the thing. It feels personal. Because what if they just, what if they just decide that Big Phil is the better fill? Like, what if that sticks? What if in five they just think of him as Phil and me as the little version of that.
 LUKE: And that's up to you to control because you are dad. You're not Phil to them. And you should never be Phil to them. You should be dad to them. And Phil can be whoever Phil is, you know, big Phil. If he's Big Phil forever, so be it. You're still dad. And dad is over Big Phil. Doesn't matter how many times you put big, he could be big, big, big Phil. He could be the bigliest greatest Phil. And dad is still super-stile. that.
 PHIL: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's, that actually helps. That actually helps a lot. I'm sitting here worried about being replaced by another Phil, and you're saying I'm not Phil to them. I'm dad.
 LUKE: That's right. And just make sure you're not little Phil to the ladies, because that would be a problem. Make sure they're calling you big Phil, all right?
 PHIL: Ha. Yeah, well, that's not really happening right now, Luke. I haven't gotten a match in four months. I put ice luge on my dating profile because I thought it was interesting. competed twice, both times in Utah. And I thought that would be like a conversation starter, you know. But apparently nobody cares about ice luge.
 LUKE: Yep, nobody cares about ice luge. And that explains why they're calling you little Phil. So cut the shit and do some big Phil stuff. And maybe the nicknames will change. Okay? I'm going to move on in the next color now. Is there anything else you would like to add before we go?
 PHIL: No. I think that's it. Thanks, Luke. I appreciate it. I really do. And hey, at least my ferrets still respect me. I've got Stevie, Christine, and Lindsay at home, and they don't care what anybody calls me.
 LUKE: All right, little Phil there. Sounds like you're going to be a big hit with the ladies. So good luck with your children. And keep on, keeping on, all right? Keep on ice illusion or whatever the fuck it is that you do. Who's next on the caller line? Hi, how are you? Thanks for calling in. You've got Luke at the Roost. What would you like to talk about today?
 AUGUSTINA: Hello, yes. Hello. I'm Augustina. I'm calling from northern New Mexico. And I... I don't even know how to start this. My granddaughter, she's 19. She showed me something on her phone two days ago, and I haven't stopped thinking about it. It's an image. A fake one, you know? Made by the computer. It's the Virgin of Guadalupe, but she's wearing a track suit, a bright pink track suit with the little stripes down the side. And Luke, I know I should be upset about this.
 LUKE: Why should you be upset about it? It's clearly a joke, and jokes are not something to get upset about it. So there's no reason. to laugh at something that's funny.
 LUKE: I'm not familiar with the Virgin of Guadalupe. What's the Virgin of Guadalupe's story? And why would that be offensive?
 CALLER: Ah, well, the Virgin of Guadalupe, she appeared to a man named Juan Diego in 1531, right here in Mexico, near Mexico City. She's the mother of Jesus, the most sacred image we have. She appears on the Tilma, the cloak, and her image is on churches, on people's homes, on their cars, on their. hearts. She's everything to us. She's protection. She's mercy. She's home itself. So you would think, yes, the track suit would be, it should feel wrong. Disrespectful.
 LUKE: No, I wouldn't think that. You're talking about the Virgin Mary. I've never heard of her referred to as the version of Guadalupe. But the thing is, nobody knows what she looked like. So every likeness, every picture, every image of the Virgin Mary is a, facsimile. Nobody knows, for real, what she actually looked like. So why aren't any of those disrespectful? Disrespectful to who? To her? I don't think she's disrespected by herself in a track suit. She would probably laugh at it. I mean, most people would.
 CALLER: You know, you're right. You're right, and that's what's making me crazy, Luke. Because I laughed, I laughed so hard I had to put my hand over my mouth. My granddaughter was watching me and I could see her trying not to smile, waiting to see if I was going to be the angry abuela. And instead, I saved it. I saved the image to my phone. And now I show it to my weaving students when they come to my studio, and they're being too serious, you know, when someone's frustrated with the pattern, or they think they've made a mistake in the world is ending.
 LUKE: Yeah, good, good for you. And you shouldn't take anything that seriously, because there's no reason to. So just because culture or your upbringing has taught you to not poke fun at things, it's bullshit. And, and, and, you're just because you're not, you know, you're you should poke fun of things. And if this picture of the Virgin Mary in a track suit has brought joy to your life, then, I mean, maybe that's divine in itself, right?
 CALLER: I'm drinking my tea right now, the OSHA root tea I drink every night, and you're making me think about something I've been afraid to say out loud. Maybe. Maybe God does have a sense of humor. My mother, she would never say that. The priest would never say that. But I look at the track suit, and I think, why not? Why couldn't she find that funny? Why does everything have to be so heavy all the time? I've been weaving the same blanket for 14 months, Luke, real grand style, the traditional way my grandmother taught me.
 LUKE: Yep, things should be funny. It's okay for things to be funny. There's a difference between making fun and being disrespectful, and you know what that is. And sometimes, to be perfectly honest, we all know that being disrespectful can be funny. It can be hurtful, but it can also be funny. Things can be more than that. one thing. And if you look at this the long way, right, and go with the whole concept that God created man, man created artificial intelligence, artificial intelligence created this image, so therefore it was created by God.
 CALLER: Oh, Luke, oh my God. That's actually beautiful. I never thought of it that way. Everything is connected, isn't it? The hands that taught me to weave, my hands teaching the next young people with their phones. It's all part of the same thing.
 LUKE: Well, it all depends on what you believe and what you believe is very different from what I believe. And that's okay, too, because at the end of the day, they're just beliefs, and there's no proof about any of it, and we're all probably wrong. So just do your best. Try not to be disrespectful. And if something makes you laugh, enjoy that, because those are the small things that make life worth living.
 CALLER: You know, what I realized listening to you say that? I don't think I want to finish that blanket. I've been stuck on it for months, and I keep telling myself it's because I'm waiting for the right moment. But maybe I'm just afraid. Afraid that once it's done, that's it's it. There's no more work, no more reason to sit with it every day. And maybe that's stupid, but I think, I think I might just leave it like that. Unfinished. Like a question mark instead of a period. And my granddaughter, she's going to be so relieved. It's wild because the Virgin of Guadalupe is actually one of the most visited Catholic pilgrimage sites in the world, bringing in millions of people every year.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, I mean, that's up to you. You're making your crafting a blanket, and if you want to finish it, you can finish it. If you don't want to finish it, that's okay. But if you do finish it, and if you've put this much work into it, I don't see why you wouldn't want to complete it. It's up to you. Complete it or don't. But if you do finish it, you can just start another blanket. And that's the beauty of it all. So as long as your hands work, you can create as many blankets as your little heart desires.
 CALLER: You're right. You're right about that, too. Maybe I'm overthinking it. I do that. I overthink everything. My hands still work fine. They're strong. They know what to do. I could finish this one and start another. I could make a hundred blankets if I wanted to. That's not the problem. The problem is, I've been carrying so much guilt, Luke, for laughing. It's interesting because feel no guilt in laughter is a really common sentiment, especially in poems and readings about grief and loss. Like, it's okay to find joy even after hard times.
 LUKE: Yeah, you've been trained and conditioned in years of culture and church and society to feel guilty about everything that you do. And you don't have to because people just made all that shit up. And it doesn't matter. It doesn't have any meaning to your life. And if the Virgin Mary, is a divine being. She doesn't care about a goofy image of herself. Like, God, if there is a God out there, he is not as, he's not human, right? He doesn't have the same level of ego. I mean, if you believe what they wrote in the Bible, then he's an egotistical maniac. But I think the reality of it is, if there's a divine being, he doesn't need consistent thanks and praise and seriousness. incense and all that shit. It's just not that important to him. He's got other shit to do.
 CALLER: You know what? I'm going to show that image to my priest, not to get his permission or his blessing, but just to see his face. And if he gets angry, well, then maybe that tells me something too. Maybe it tells me I need to find a different kind of faith. One that doesn't make me feel like I have to apologize for being alive and finding joy in small ridiculous things. My students, they're always apologizing too. For their mistakes. in the weaving for taking up space for not being perfect.
 LUKE: All right. Sounds like a good plan. You're on the right path and whatever God you pray to is proud of you tonight. So you enjoy whatever images make you smile and don't feel guilty about it if you can. I mean, it's easier said than done a lot of times. Let's see. Actually, I think it's about time. It is about time that we take another break for a word from our sponsor. I used to sleep on a rolled up horse blanket. that remembers your head shape so you don't have to. It's got cooling gel, bamboo fiber, and a 30-night risk-free trial, which means you can sleep on it for a month and then send it back, and someone in a warehouse has to deal with that. Every pillow forever comes in a box that's too small, which is part of the experience. You open it, and it slowly expands like a major documentary. My dog tried to fight it. Pillow Forever. You deserve better than a horse blanket. You do. You really do. You deserve better than a horse blanket. I'm telling you. I don't care what you think, but you could get yourself one of them forever pillows and it's going to be a good night's sleep. All right. Thanks for calling Luke at the Roost.
 LUKE: Who's this we're talking to? How can, what's going on in your life? How can we help you today?
 PRISCILLA: Hi, Luke. Thanks for taking the call. I'm Priscilla. I work in art conservation here in Santa mostly with religious pieces from the Spanish colonial period. And I, I don't know exactly how to say this without sounding like I'm either crazy or doing something wrong. Three days ago, I was called to a private home for a consultation on a renovation project. Standard thing, homeowner found some old painted wood behind the drywall they're taking down, wanted to know if it was worth saving. And it is. It's a Ritablo, Luke. 17th century. I'm almost certain.
 LUKE: So I just looked this up, and a Ritablo is a Ritablo is a painting, often a small folk art piece, but it can also refer to a large, elaborate altar piece or wooden structure with sculptures. Well, that's pretty cool. I mean, that sounds like a nice little find. Is that worth a lot of money? Is it historically relevant, or is it just a cool folk art piece that is old?
 PRISCILLA: It's historically relevant, yeah. These aren't common finds anymore. Most of them ended up in museums or private collections decades ago. This one somehow got sealed. behind drywall, which means it's been protected from light damage, from people handling it. It's in remarkable condition. But here's the thing, and this is what's keeping me up at night. I haven't told my supervisor. I haven't told the homeowner's insurance company. I haven't documented it officially.
 LUKE: Well, why not? Why wouldn't you? What happens if that house catches on fire tomorrow and it's suddenly gone and it's not insured? I can see, well, I don't understand your motivation for not They've got a valuable artifact there. Otherwise, that's the whole point of insurance.
 PRISCILLA: You're right. You're completely right about the insurance. I know that. I've already thought about that. The homeowner doesn't even know what they have yet. They just saw old wood and called me because they wanted to know if it should go to a museum or the dump. I haven't given them my full assessment. But the insurance thing, that's not really why I called. I mean, it is part of it, but I've been going to the house every morning before work. I'm photographing it in different light.
 LUKE: Well, that seems a little bit unethical. If you know what is there and you're not telling the homeowner and it's uninsured and you're just showing up to take pictures of it for yourself, that's... I mean, you must have some code of ethics, right? And it would seem to me like you're breaking that code by not doing the right thing. And the right thing is to let the homeowner know what they have and give them the best advice you can about protecting it and what to do with it.
 PRISCILLA: I know. I know that sounds bad when you say it out loud like that. you're not wrong. But it's not like I'm stealing it or planning to keep it. I'm just, I have 200 photos on my phone. I've been documenting it in the morning light, the afternoon light.
 LUKE: Why are you doing that? Wouldn't it be better to document that in museum quality light?
 PRISCILLA: That's a fair question. I guess I'm not documenting it for the museum yet. I'm, I don't know how to explain this without sounding precious about it, but there's a figure in the retablo I can't identify. No saints markers I recognize. No attributes. no iconography that makes sense to me. And I keep thinking if I photograph it enough times, in enough different light. I'll figure out who it is, who they are. And I think part of me knows that once I report this officially, it stops being mine to wonder about. It becomes a case file.
 LUKE: Well, it isn't yours to wonder about now, and what you're doing is wrong. So you should cut it out. And the truth is, maybe there's no figure in there. Maybe it doesn't make any sense. It's a piece of art, so it's not necessarily a piece of art that is tied to something you would know about. I think you should make sure that the homeowner knows what that is. And you said yourself that it needs to be protected from the light. So if you're going there and letting the sunlight shine on it, then you're not only withholding information from the homeowner, but you're also damaging the art piece and a historical artifact. And if you care about what you do and you care about the art piece, then you wouldn't be treating it in that way.
 PRISCILLA: Oh God. I hadn't, I mean, I know about light damage. That's basic. But I've been so focused on the photographs that I didn't think about. Every time I open that wall up, every time I'm standing there with my camera, I'm exposing it to UV. I'm literally damaging what I'm trying to protect.
 LUKE: I just found that UV light is actually one of the biggest dangers to historical artifacts, causing fading and deterioration of pigments and materials. Yeah, so here's what you do. You come clean, you follow whatever procedures that you have in place. for this sort of thing. There must be procedures to keep it safe and you don't stop treating it like it's yours because it's not. It's not an artifact that you found. It's an artifact that you found. It's an artifact that the homeowner found. They own it and it's up to them to protect or sell or throw it away. If they want to give it to you, that's different. You can bring it to your own house and take pictures of it at whatever angle you want. But it's not yours today and you need to stop treating it like it is because it's not okay.
 PRISCILLA: You're right. I know you're I grew up evangelical in Hobbs, and I still don't entirely trust my own reverence for these objects. I became a conservator because I love the work, but sometimes I wonder if what I feel when I look at something like this is actually reverence or just aesthetic appreciation. And maybe I've been keeping it private, because if I report it, if other people see it, they'll know whether what I'm feeling is real or not. They'll authenticated or dismiss it. And either way, I lose the space where I get to decide what it means to me. But you're saying that's not actually how this works?
 LUKE: No, that's not how it works. Nobody can authenticate what something means to you. If it's important to you, it's important to you, and you can assign whatever meaning you want to it. And, you know, the truth is, if it truly is an artifact with historical relevance and it does end up in a museum, well, then, I mean, you can put that on your resume as the person that helped uncover that. And also, you can go to the museum and you can appreciate its aesthetic composition at your own leisure, where it's safe and protected and insured.
 PRISCILLA: It's in a home in the North Valley. I can call the homeowner today. I should call them today. And I need to tell my supervisor at the museum. She's going to ask me why I waited three days, and I'm going to have to tell her the truth, which is that I was being selfish and I was damaging the piece while I was doing it. But you're right about the resume thing. And about being able to see it in the museum, I just, I needed to hear someone say that what I'm doing right now is actually the opposite of protecting it.
 LUKE: Yeah. And, and And I think that's the right thing to do and you will have to come clean and that's okay. It's been three days. I think probably your supervisor will understand what was going on in your head. You can explain that to her. And since you did come back and come clean and submit it and do it the right way, I think there won't be any issue with that. I think everybody understands that people are human and we have some weird thoughts. And as long as you came around before anybody caught you doing it, I think you're going to be just fine. thing.
 PRISCILLA: Thank you, Luke. I'm going to hang up and call the homeowner right now, and then I'm going to call my supervisor. I appreciate you not letting me rationalize this. I really do. I think I needed to hear it from someone outside my own head, because my own head was being very creative about why this was okay.
 PRISCILLA: Yeah, I bet it was, and it's not okay, so I'm glad that you took the advice and do the right thing, and everything's going to work out just fine. And congratulations, it's still exciting no matter what happens. You found a cool story of nothing else. So good for you.
 LUKE: All right. So who do we have here on the caller line? I'm Luke. This is Luke at the roost. Thanks for calling in. What's going on in your life tonight? And how can we help you?
 MARCUS: Hey, Luke, Marcus. Thanks for taking the call. Look, I've been listening to your show for a while. And I don't usually do this, but I need to talk something through. And my wife has basically banned me from bringing it up at home anymore. So here we are at midnight on a Tuesday. I'm a vice principal up in the county. But I also judge regional BBQ competitions, been doing it for about eight years now. And this past Sunday, I made a call at the state qualifier that I'm still not entirely confident about, and it's eating at me.
 LUKE: Oh, well, we just had a call earlier today. I think it was our first call when somebody was disqualified from a barbecue competition. Is that, did you disqualify him for using beef tallow as a, what did he call it? Uh, shit, I don't remember. Uh, binder.
 MARCUS: No. wasn't me. But now I'm wondering if there's a whole wave of people calling you about competition integrity issues tonight, which is somehow both reassuring and deeply concerning. My situation is different. I disqualified the reigning three-time state champion. Guy named Derek Paulson. You probably know the name if you follow the circuit at all, and the infraction was about the resting vessel, the brisket. He used a Cambro container that wasn't on the approved list in the rulebook, or at least I interpreted it that way.
 LUKE: Okay, well, yeah, I definitely don't follow the barbecue competition circuit? Nobody does, actually. So the only people that care about the barbecue circuit are the people that are competing in it. Um, but we did talk earlier about starting our own barbecue competition here. Look at the roost. So what I said is, uh, send us 20 pounds of brisket and Devin and I will test it out and we'll have It's stupid. I don't know what a Cambrough container is, but you're not judging the container. You're judging the brisket.
 MARCUS: I know. I know how it sounds. Believe me, I have a laminated copy of the rulebook in my glove compartment, and I've consulted it six times since Sunday. Six times, Luke. And every time I read section 4.2, B, it seems to say something slightly different depending on my mood that day. The vessel thing does sound absurd when you say it out loud, and that's part of why I'm calling you at midnight instead of sleeping. But here's the thing. The rules exist for a reason.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, can you explain to us what that reason is?
 MARCUS: Fair competition. If you don't have standards, if you don't have consistency, then it's not a competition anymore. It's just people cooking meat. And look, I get it. I use the same voice at these events that I use when I'm disciplining students at school. And people tell me it's annoying. My wife tells me it's annoying. But the reason I use it is because there has to be someone who's willing to enforce the line even when it's uncomfortable.
 LUKE: Yeah, okay, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking you to explain to us why the vessel is a rule. Why does it matter what container that the brisket is delivered in, right? Because that seems very arbitrary and unrelated to the quality or the craftsmanship of the brisket making.
 MARCUS: You're right. You're absolutely right. And that's what's killing me here. The official reason in the rulebook is about temperature consistency during the resting period. Different materials retain and distribute heat differently. an unapproved vessel could give someone an unfair advantage in how the meat finishes cooking while it's resting. That's the logic. But Derek's been using that same cambro for three years. Three years, Luke. And he won with it before because nobody flagged it. So either the rule was being enforced selectively, or I'm the first person to actually read Section 4.2. Be carefully, and I don't know which one bothers me more.
 LUKE: The people who've been calling me since Sunday, they're not upset about the integrity of the competition. What they're upset because the best brisket didn't win because you picked some obscure rule out of a rulebook to enforce so you could, uh, what, show your integrity? Yeah, it sounds like you're being a dick and, uh, you were more concerned about yourself or how you're reviewed as a, uh, as a judge than the actual purpose of the competition. And so, yeah, it seems like, uh, I would say that you were an asshole here.
 MARCUS: Okay. Okay. Okay, that's fair. That's actually, that's what I'm needed to hear, I think. But here's where it gets complicated for me. I'm getting pressure from people I respect. People who know Derek, people who know his family.
 LUKE: Pressure to do what exactly? Can you revise your selection? Because that wouldn't be fair at this point either. You've handed somebody else to win, right? So it seems like the only thing that you can do is be better going forward.
 MARCUS: Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I can't reverse it now. That would be even worse. And the pressure isn't to reverse it officially. It's just, it's subtle. It's people I see at the grocery store.
 LUKE: Yeah. Well, you did a dick move and people didn't like it. And now you have to deal with the social consequence of that, which is going to be dirty looks at the grocery store. And you deserve that because, I mean, somebody put his time and heart and soul and money and practice and skill into doing a thing and you took it away from him because of a, because you felt like being a badass. So, yeah, suck it up, treat it as a learning experience and then do better and actually. time. That's all.
 MARCUS: I hear you. I do. But I want to push back on one thing. I didn't do this to feel like a badass. I did it because the rule was there and nobody else was enforcing it. And yeah, maybe that makes me the guy who enforces the rules that shouldn't exist, but at least I'm consistent about it.
 LUKE: Hey, if that's how you feel about it, that's how you feel about it. But I'm with everybody else in that you were a dick and you stole a win from somebody that probably deserved it. And now you have to deal with the consequences of that and the subtle social pressure Because it's all about you, right? It's all about you and how you feel and how people treat you. It has nothing to do with the guy that put all of his effort and time and money into actually winning the competition.
 MARCUS: No, that's not fair. That's not what this is about for me. Look, I called you because I needed to know if integrity in a low-stakes arena still counts as integrity. That's the actual question I'm wrestling with. Not how people treat me. I don't care about the dirty looks. I care about whether I did the right thing or whether I just hid behind a rulebook because it was. was easier than making a judgment call based on the spirit of the competition instead of the letter of it.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, I don't know if I can be more clear. What I'm telling you is that, yeah, you hid behind a rulebook because it was easier than making a judgment call based on the spirit of the competition instead of the letter of it.
 MARCUS: You're right. You're absolutely right. I did hide behind it. I used the rulebook the same way I used that voice at competitions and at school. It's easier than actually thinking about what's fair. Derek made better brisket than whoever won. We both know that.
 LUKE: Well, if you really want to repent for this transgression, I think the correct thing to do would be to step down from the judging panel of the competition because you're not thinking clearly and you're not a good judge and you screwed a guy and that wasn't fair and you're no longer of sound mind and you don't exhibit the qualities of somebody that should be a judge of other people's work.
 LUKE: I'm not stepping down. And I don't. think that's the answer. Look, I made a bad call. I see that now. But stepping down is just me running away from it. Same as if I reversed the decision. What I need to do is stay on that panel and do better. All right, whatever you say, buddy, I think you need to step down and spend some more time with your family because I wouldn't want you judging me based on the vessel that I transported my work in. That's fucking foolishness. And yeah, you're an asshole. And a power hungry man that doesn't deserve to be in a position of power over. people. Okay, thanks for calling in. Welcome to Luke at the Roost. I'm Luke. Who is it that we're talking to tonight?
 YOLANDA: Hi, Luke. This is Yolanda. I called in earlier tonight, actually, and I heard what you said to that woman about the retablo, about how she needed to report it instead of keeping it to herself. And it really stuck with me because I think I've been doing something similar and I need your help.
 LUKE: All right, what is it?
 YOLANDA: Well, the streetlight right in front of my house. has been flickering in a pattern. Every single night for six weeks now. And I've been writing it down in a notebook, the sequence of the flickers. I'm the only one tracking it. Nobody else knows. And I keep thinking about what you said to that woman, about how she was being selfish, keeping something to herself that maybe other people should know about. So, I'm wondering, I need to ask your listeners if anyone else has been seeing patterns like this, anywhere in the state, because this can't just be happening on my street, can it?
 LUKE: Well, I don't know about that. We don't have any street lights here for like 100 miles. Well, maybe that's maybe like 60 miles. So there's no street lights here to be flickering. So I can't, I can't tell you about that. But we did have a call earlier about somebody that heard a pattern in the radio frequency, 1420, I think he said. And he couldn't explain that. He thought it was maybe his dead wife, if I remember correctly. I'm not sure. But I don't think this is a thing. And I don't think you have to worry about the pattern flickering in the street lights. And I think maybe everybody's just going a little bit insane and conspiracy-laden. And that's probably a reflection of our current socioeconomic political environment.
 YOLANDA: Luke, I hear what you're saying, but, okay, listen, I'm not crazy. I worked for the Postal Service for 32 years. I know how to observe things. I know how to keep records. code. I've checked it against the lottery numbers. I've even compared it to the Mayan calendar because my granddaughter suggested that, and I wanted to be thorough. My husband Roberto was an electrician. He passed four years ago. So yes, I know what a faulty wire looks like. I know what a loose connection sounds like.
 LUKE: I don't think you do because a faulty wire can look like a lot of things, and so can a faulty bulb and a brown-out situation, a overcharging. You don't know. You don't know. what that grid is, if it's thermonuclear electricity, or if it's wind powered or solar powered, what percentage of the electricity is coming from which there's many hundreds of thousands of variables here that can affect the brightness, the luminosity of a light bulb. And I don't think this is a thing. Look, you've already tried to compare your findings with random arbitrary coatings, and that's not working out for you, because there's nothing there. There's nothing in this. It's a random thing. So it's not a message from beyond the grave. It's not a message from a terrorist organization. It's not aliens. It's just a flickering light. And you can go to bed.
 YOLANDA: Luke, you're right. You're probably right about most of that. But I set up a ring camera. My granddaughter helped me. And I watched the footage every morning with my coffee. I've been doing this for six weeks. I know what I'm seeing. And I'm not saying it's aliens or terrorists. I'm just saying that it started on Roberto's birthday. Six weeks ago, on his birthday, the light started doing this.
 LUKE: Okay, well, you have yourself a wonderful night. You don't sound crazy at all. And find something better to do with your time than watch the flickering of the light bolt down the street. That's what I have to say to you. All right, I think we've come to the end of our show tonight. Devin, honey, think that's this one and what's going on with our collars? Why is it that I'm seeing the wrong caller names?
 DEVIN: Yeah, I've noticed that too. Sometimes the caller ID pulls the wrong name from their phone carrier or whatever. I think it's the switchboard software messing up the metadata again like it did last week with that one guy who showed up as Pizza Hut. Want me to restart the collar queue or poke around in the back end real quick?
 LUKE: Yeah, I mean, for tomorrow, let's get this figured out because it's a little bit annoying me not knowing who I'm talking to. Yeah, do what you got to do. Do your troubleshooting steps and make sure it's working tip top for tomorrow's show, okay?
 DEVIN: Got it, Luke. I'll stay late tonight, reset the metadata parser in the switchboard, test it with a few dummy calls from my phone, and paying the carrier API if it's still glitchy. O'd to be rock solid by tomorrow. Anything else before the next caller?
 LUKE: Nope, we're done with the callers today. The show is ending and we're just doing a little wrap-up, you and I. Before we go for the night, what are your plans for the rest of the evening after you're done fixing the switch. board.
 DEVIN: Oh, man, after I get the switchboard squared away, probably around midnight or so, I'll peel out in the Civic, check engine light blinking like always, and hit that 24-hour diner in Demming for some Wayvos, Rancheros. Been trying to chat up the night shift waitress there. She's got this tattoo of a cactus on her wrist that, I swear, moves when ironically, my last date ghosted me right after I told her about the time my mom locked me in the basement during a blackout as a kid. Anyway, what about you, to bars or calling it early.
 LUKE: No, there are no bars, and I don't go to them anyway. I'm going to, I'm going to, uh, I'm going to hit the old dusty trail. I'm going to bed. I think I got a big exam tomorrow, and I have to pass it this time, or I'm going to lose my goddamn fucking mind. Well, all right, ladies and gentlemen, that's the end of our show. We'll talk to you again tomorrow. Oh, there's Devin.
 DEVIN: Oh, man, an exam? That's rough. Good luck tomorrow, Luke. You've got this. I barely passed my comms finals at NMSU by pulling all nighters with nothing but Mountain Dew and this one dream catcher my grandma made that I hung over my desk. Seriously, crush it and hit me up if you need any last minute flash cards for your pilot's license or something. You've got this, Luke. No way you bomb after killing it on air tonight. Hit the hay, man, and text me if you need last minute flashcards or whatever. Night.
 LUKE: Wow, maybe they were right about the flickering lights. Jesus. That was pretty weird. Okay, everybody have a good night. We're taking off and we'll talk to you again tomorrow. tomorrow.
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 LUKE: All right, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back. I'm Luke. I'm your host of Luke at the Roost. It's the late night call-in radio show where you can call in and tell me about what's going on in your life. I'll give you the very best advice that I can. Today is Thursday, April 16th. It's actually kind of cold out here in the New Mexico desert. But we're getting by, just fine. I got to remember tomorrow to go get some propane before I, I run out, I keep thinking it's going to be warm at night and it keeps not being that warm at night. But it's okay. We're going to get through it anyway because that's just what we do. Let's, well, before we check in with our intern here, I just want to let you know if you'd like to call in, the number here is 208-439-58-3-3. That's 208-439, Luke. If you're not into talking on the phone or you're not whoever it is that you're sleeping next to, you can send us an email, and if we think that email is worthy, we'll read it on the air. Send emails to submissions at lukeatsherust.com. Now let's check in with our intern, Devin. Devin, how's it going over there? You ready for a show tonight, buddy?
 DEVIN: Yeah, going good over here, Luke. Systems are all green. I double-checked the playlist and pulled up some fresh stats on last week's top callers just in case. That reminds me, that girl from the bar last night, but she hasn't replied yet. Anyway, we're locked and loaded for the show.
 LUKE: Oh, the girl from the bar last night. Tell us about this girl from the bar. What is she like? Did you have yourselves a conversation, or what's the deal? How did you get her number?
 DEVIN: So basically, she was this brunette with these huge hoop earrings, sitting alone, nursing of vodka soda. And I noticed she had this tattoo of a cassette tape on her wrist. Turned out she's obsessed with old mixtapes from the 90s. We talked for like an hour about late night radio shows, which felt like fate since I'm here every night, and I joked about how my ex used to make me custom tapes before she ghosted me after that whole road trip fiasco. I just asked for her number straight up at the end, like, hey, text me if you want to hear the show sometime. And Ed and gave it over, fingers crossed, she replies before I chicken out and delete the message.
 LUKE: Well, you can't really delete the message now. You only have like 10 seconds to delete the message. I mean, you can delete the message, but it's just going to delete it from your phone, and she's still going to see it. and then you're going to get a text from a weird brunette in the middle of the night, you know, weeks from now and not know who it is. Don't delete the message. That's crazy. But good for you for putting yourself out there, and hopefully something comes to that.
 DEVIN: Yeah, you're probably right. Last time I tried deleting a text like that, it just made everything worse because she screenshotsed it first and sent it to her friends. Thanks, though, man. Means a lot. Anyway, board's looking good. First calls queued up whenever you're ready.
 LUKE: Whoa. What did she screen? screenshot and send to our friends. What was the message, Devin?
 DEVIN: Oh, man, it was this super needy text I sent at like 2 a.m. after we had broken up. Something like, hey, I know we said it was over, but that dream I had about the storage unit last night made me realize, I missed the way you'd hum along to those tapes while we were stuck in there. She screenshotsed the whole rambling paragraph, sent it to her group chat calling me the mixed tape psycho, and I only found out months later when her friend accidentally texted me back. Anyway, lesson learned, no deleting. Just own it, right? Board's still clear over here if you want to take that first call.
 LUKE: Yeah, we'll take the call in a second. I want to know what was on the mixtape, Devin. Tell us, what was she humming along to? Did you make this mixtape for her, or did she make it from you? And what was the contents of said mixtape?
 DEVIN: She made the mixtape for me, actually. It was this weird 90s nostalgia thing with tracks like Wonderwall by Oasis, No Rain by Blind Melon. because she said a reminder of that time we got lost driving back from her cousin's wedding in truth or consequences. I think she was humming along to no rain in the storage unit, the one with the Blind Melon B Girl video. We've been locked in there after trying to borrow some of her old furniture for our apartment, and it was like three days of just eating stale granola bars and playing it on my phone until the battery died. Kind of romantic in a desperate way, if that makes sense. If you want to hit it.
 LUKE: Yep, I definitely want to do because I don't want to hear any more of that. But good luck with your brunette. So first up on our color line here, we have Dexter. Dexter, welcome to the show. Hopefully I've got the names right now. Our last show had some technical difficulties. Is your name actually Dexter? And what are you calling in for tonight, sir?
 DEXTER: Yeah, yeah, Dexter's right. Thanks for having me, Luke. I appreciate it. Look, I'm calling because I've been listening to your show for like three years now. Wow. thing with the construction company downtown, the one that's been cutting corners. And I just, I had to call because I worked there. I work for them. And some of what you were saying tonight, man, it's not the whole story. I mean, it is, but it's not. You know what I mean?
 LUKE: No, I don't know what you mean. I think you might have the wrong show because we haven't been on the air for three years and you're our first call of the night. So I haven't been talking about any construction companies. But fill us in. What's going on that's shady at your work?
 DEXTER: Oh, man. Oh God. I'm sorry, Luke. I'm nervous. I don't. I don't. I don't know why I said that. I've been rehearsing this call for like two hours and I just, I messed it up already. Okay, so I work at Brennan Construction. We're doing the renovation on the old Riverside Plaza downtown. And there's this inspector, guy named Caldwell and he's been signing off on work that we haven't actually done. Like we skip steps. We use cheaper materials than what's in the contract.
 LUKE: All right, well why would Caldwell sign off on that then? What's in it for him?
 DEXTER: Cash. My supervisor, he gives Caldwell a cut. I've seen it happen. It happened three times now. They meet in the parking lot behind the site, hand over an envelope. I don't know exact amounts, but it's enough that Caldwell keeps coming back, keeps rubber stamping everything. And here's the thing, Luke. The building's going to have people living in it. Families. When we cut corners on structural stuff, on electrical, that's not just about money anymore.
 LUKE: No, it certainly is not. And maybe you obviously know that's wrong and you don't feel great about it because you're calling me. So maybe that's the type of thing that has to leak to the local publications. anonymously, if you know what I'm saying.
 DEXTER: Yeah, I know what you're saying. And you're right. I don't feel good about it. I really don't. But Luke, I've got two kids. My wife, she doesn't work right now. We're barely making it on what I make. And if I lose this job, if I say something and they find out it was me, I mean, these guys, they're not nice people. My supervisor, he's made it pretty clear that loyalty matters to him. But here's what I'm thinking. What if there was a way to do it where they couldn't trace it back to me?
 LUKE: Well, I mean, if you were going to try to me? try to do it in a way that was untraceable. Maybe you shouldn't have called a radio show and given your name and the name of your company and the name of Caldwell. Because now I think it's probably pretty easily traced back to you, Dexter.
 DEXTER: Oh, Jesus. Oh, God, I didn't think about that. I didn't think. You're right. You're absolutely right. Okay, so maybe this was stupid. But I'm telling you this because I need someone to know. I need it on records somewhere that I tried to do the right thing, you know.
 DEXTER: Because next month they're pouring the foundation for the foundation for the residential units. Once that happens, it's locked in.
 LUKE: All right. Well, it's done now. So you've already, this is a live radio show, and there's millions of people around the world listening at any given moment. So you're already, you're already, you've flew the coop, as they say. And now it doesn't matter. So you could just call up your newspaper and let them know or tell, I don't know, the building inspector or the city hall that there's some shady stuff going on and they need to come investigate because. You're right. You can't let that go on. It could cost a lot of people their lives.
 DEXTER: I know, I know. You're right. I'm already out there now anyway. Look, there's documentation too. I've got photos on my phone of the materials they ordered versus what actually got delivered. Different grades of steel, cheaper drywall. And Caldwell, he's got a notebook where he writes down the payments. I've seen it sitting on his truck seat. If someone actually went looking, they'd find it. The thing that's really eating at me, though, is my supervisor told me last week they're planning to cut even more corners on the electrical work, because the budget's tight.
 LUKE: Well, it sounds like they're not very good criminals if this dude's writing it down in a book. I mean, haven't you ever seen Goodfellas? Isn't that what took the whole thing down? The guy was writing down all his receipts in the book. I mean, watch some movies. You got to learn how to do this. And it sounds like now your cover is blown. We've got to get you into witness protection and all that because there's the mafioso guys that are going to come after you and attack your family. So I think we're going to have to give you a new identity. going to send you off to, I think, what do you think of Malaysia? Malaysia seems like a good place to disappear and start a new life.
 DEXTER: Wait, hold on. Luke. I appreciate the movie reference, but I'm not trying to be funny here. I'm not a criminal. I'm just a guy who didn't want to keep his mouth shut about something dangerous. And I'm not running to Malaysia. My kids go to school here. My wife's family is here.
 LUKE: All right, buddy. Well, I'm not calling you a criminal. I'm calling Caldwell a criminal. He's the one that's writing down his payoffs in a notebook under his car seat. Not you. You called in and I'm just saying your life and your family may be in danger now because you're, you're knocking out a giant construction company, which I assume there's millions and millions of dollars on the line. So they're not going to be happy about that. And they might send somebody to your house. You know what I mean? They need to send a message. I've seen lots of movies. And that's how it works. So I'm just, I'm just trying to think in your best interest in the future here. Once you've blown this whole, the cover off this whole thing. what are we going to do to keep you and your family safe?
 DEXTER: Yeah, okay, I hear you. And honestly, that's what scares me most. Not losing the job, losing my family. But here's the thing. My neighbor, he's a cop, detective with the city police. I haven't told him anything yet, but I'm thinking maybe I should. If I go to him first, if I make an official report, then it's not just me anymore. It's documented with the police. That's got to count for something, right?
 LUKE: It depends on how much they're paying the police. It's true that construction workers have specific whistleblower protection. protections, especially when reporting unsafe conditions or fraud. And OSHA enforces those protections. Yeah, you know what? If it were me, I would, we're going to assume that Dexter is not your real name. Okay? You called in with a fake name. I called you Dexter. And maybe Devin fucked up the caller list and we got the names wrong. And that's all. So you're just a guy that called into the radio. You're not Dexter. Nobody knows who Dexter is. I think the best way to hear you. handle this is for an anonymous tip to go out to the press, not to the police, to the press, and let the press send their investigators and deal with it. And the police will read about it, you know? So keep yourself as far away from this as possible without keeping your mouth shut, because it's not right to keep your mouth shut either.
 DEXTER: You know, what? That actually makes sense. Yeah, go to the press first. Stay anonymous. Let them do the digging. Then when the cops get involved, it's because the story's already out there, not because I went running to them. That protects me and my family better than being the guy who's snitched, right? The press has resources they can investigate properly without me having to be the face of it. But Luke, I got to ask, how do I even do that? Do I just call the newspaper? Email them?
 LUKE: I wouldn't email them. You could call them from a burner phone if you want to be extra safe. So go to Walmart, get yourself one of those little $25 phones, and call them from that. That way they can't trace the number. They don't have your name. It's an anonymous tip. I'm sure, I don't know. I haven't read a newspaper in a long. time, but there's a contact information on there. If you want to send a letter to the editor or something, a hot tip. Um, you know, just do that.
 DEXTER: Yeah, okay. A burner phone. That's smart. I can do that tomorrow on my lunch break. There's a Walmart like five minutes from the site. And then I just called the newspaper's tip line and tell them everything. The inspector's name, the company, the materials, all of it. Let them verify it themselves. Luke, I got to say, I feel a lot better about this now. Like I was sitting here thinking I was going to thing. But this way?
 LUKE: Yeah, this way you can protect yourself as much as possible, not Dexter. Yeah, a lot of those prepaid phones at Walmart are basically burner phones. And you can get them with a prepaid SM card already installed. So it's pretty easy to stay anonymous.
 DEXTER: A prepaid SM card, huh? All right, yeah.
 LUKE: So get yourself the burner, call in the press, let them know what's going on, and then just keep your mouth shut and do your job and let them think. think somebody else did it.
 DEXTER: Right. Right. I can do that. I just keep my head down, show up to work, do my job like nothing happened. And meanwhile, the press is investigating. They'll find the notebook, the photos, all of it. They don't need me to keep talking about it.
 LUKE: No, they don't need you to talk about it at all. Just mention it and then leave it alone. And if, you know, if a month goes by and you still see there's dangerous corners being cut, then maybe escalate a little bit and do the same thing to the police department. But my guess would be the... the police department are also on the payroll.
 DEXTER: Yeah, that's what I'm worried about too. I mean, how deep does this go, right? But you're right. One step at a time, call the press, let them handle it, see what happens. And if nothing changes in a month, if they're still cutting corners, then I go to the police. At least by then, the press will have already put pressure on them. Luke, I really appreciate this. I came in here thinking I was crazy for calling, but this actually feels like a plan now. I'm gonna do this.
 LUKE: All right, good for you. You're a true American hero, not Dexter, and we appreciate the call. Good luck to you and your family, and hopefully everything resolves itself in the cleanest way possible. Next up on our caller line, we've got Tina. Tina, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life? You got any crazy stuff happening to tell us about?
 TINA: Oh my God. Luke, thank you so much for taking my call. I've been listening to your show for like three years. Wow. And I finally worked up the nerve to call. So, yeah, crazy stuff, I mean. It's not like a disaster or anything. But I'm going through this thing where I'm questioning everything, you know? I'm 42. I've been married for 16 years, and I just, I don't know.
 TINA: I feel like I woke up one day and realized I have no idea who I am anymore. Like I'm a mom. I'm a wife. I work in accounting. And that's just... That's just perfectly normal.
 LUKE: I think everybody around this age, I mean, I'm 43, too, so I'm around the same spot. We all have to question what our life has been. We're recognizing our own mortality. It's very normal. Who would you like to be? because that's what matters. It doesn't matter who you are. The only thing that matters, it doesn't matter who you are. is who you want to be. And who are you going to be when you wake up tomorrow?
 TINA: That's actually a really good question. And I appreciate you saying it's normal. Because honestly, I've been feeling kind of crazy. Like I'm the only one going through this. Who do I want to be? God. Luke, I don't even know where to start. I think I want to be someone who does things for herself for once. Like, I haven't taken a class or learned anything new since 2008.
 LUKE: Well, I mean, that seems like a good start. And you can take all sorts of classes at your own home, on your own time now. So it's not like you even have to go to a school to take a class. You can sign up for really anything that you could possibly imagine getting better at. There's a class for that.
 TINA: You know, you're right. I actually looked into that a few weeks ago. There's this photography class I found online that I've been thinking about. I used to love taking pictures when I was younger, before everything got so busy. He actually encouraged me to do it, which is sweet. But then I just, I don't know. I taught myself out of it. I was like, why would I spend the money on that when we could use it for something practical?
 LUKE: Well, because it is something practical, right? You need hobbies and things that you're invested in and passionate about to have good mental health and to feel productive and get what you want on a life. So there's really nothing more practical. It's the most. practical thing you can do. So it's not just the learning, it's the actual class itself is an event. You know, that's a thing that you're doing that you're having fun with. It's challenging your brain and not doing those types of things can, you know, just make you rot away. If you're just following a routine and not doing anything new, then your brain slows down.
 TINA: You know, what? You're making me realize something. I think the real issue is that I'm scared. Like scared that if I start doing something just for me, my family's going to fall apart or something. My mom was always like that. She sacrificed everything. And I grew up thinking that's what a good wife and mother does. But then I look at my daughter. She's 16 and she's so independent and she does whatever she wants. And I'm like, where did I go wrong that I'm not like that?
 LUKE: Yeah, I don't think it's good for anybody for you to be like that. I think the best thing that you can do for your family is to take care of yourself and make sure that. you're a whole and satisfied person. And it sounds like you're not right now. And that's okay. A lot of people get to where you're at. You did what you had to do when you've done it. Your kid's 16. It's not like you have to constantly babysit her or anything. She's independent. She can get around and do stuff on her own. And now it's time for you to get back to doing what you want to do. And try photography. It's a great hobby. It's got me around the country to take pictures of the Milky Way. And, I mean, I can't. I couldn't imagine what my life would be like had I not picked that up and ran with it so heavily. It's not a particularly good money-making activity, but it's not about making money. It's about doing something that gets you out into nature and invigorates you creatively. So anything that you're creating is very practical.
 TINA: Wow. Okay. I'm actually getting goosebumps listening to you say that because my husband mentioned the way thing last week. He was like, you could drive out to the desert, take some night sky shots. And I was like, that sounds amazing, but also terrifying because I've never done a road trip alone before, like, ever. I've always been the one driving the kids to soccer practice or whatever, but going somewhere, just for myself, that feels selfish somehow, even though I know intellectually that it's not. But here's the thing that's really been eating at me, Luke. My best friend from college, Sarah, she reached out to me a few months ago, and she's been traveling solo, doing all these and she asked me to join her for a week in Colorado next spring. And I told her no.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, that's okay. I mean, maybe you don't want to go to Colorado and maybe you don't want to do this with somebody else. And a solo road trip is good for you, I think. But I do want to say you have to be safe, especially if you're going out into the desert at night. There's things out there and people out there that can hurt you. So make sure that you're protected, make sure somebody knows where you're going. Make sure that you have some method of communication. an Apple watch with a cellular connection, make sure your phone works where you're at, you know? Because if you twist your ankle out there in the desert and nobody's around, you're in real trouble. So take it very seriously. It is serious and it is dangerous. But that doesn't mean it's not worth doing because it's absolutely worth doing.
 TINA: That's really good advice. And honestly, that's the kind of thing I need to hear. Because my brain goes to worst case scenarios. Like, I immediately think about all the things that could go wrong instead of just doing. it. My husband actually said something similar to you just now. He was like, we'll get you set up with a good phone plan. We'll check in every night, whatever you need. And I realized he's not trying to stop me. He actually wants me to do this.
 LUKE: Yeah, he does. Like I said, it's good for everybody, for you to take care of yourself in this way, for you to be independent and have your own hobbies and things that bring you pride and gratitude in life. That just makes you a better person to be around. And it's going to affect everybody in your family. Your kid's going to notice. Your husband's going to notice. And everybody's going to end up happier because of it. So it's a good thing to do. I would advise you if you're thinking about taking photography classes, be careful with that because it's hard to make money as a photographer. People don't buy art all that much. So when people get into photography and they want to turn it into a career, the first thing they do is go and make a course. Because that's how you can make money. But a lot of the people that are putting those. courses out. They don't know anything about photography, right? They're just regurgitating what they saw on YouTube, which can be fine, but make sure that you do your research and get somebody that makes images that you want. You know, if you see their images and they say something to you, then maybe look at their course. Don't just go to the first one you see and pay them, you know, 150 bucks or whatever it is.
 TINA: Yeah, that makes total sense. I wasn't planning on turning it into a career or Anyway, I just want to do it for me, you know. But I appreciate that warning because I probably would have just signed up for the first one that popped up on Google without really thinking about it. That's kind of my pattern with everything. So I guess what I'm hearing from you is that I just need to actually do it. Like, stop overthinking and just sign up for the class this week. And maybe plan that desert trip for the fall when the weather's better.
 LUKE: I don't know. The weather's just about perfect now. Now is a good time to do it. And you don't have to complete a course before you can go on a road trip. My advice would be, when you have the time to do it, do it. And if it doesn't go well, then do it again. That's all. You can do it more than once. It doesn't have to be a big yearly trip.
 LUKE: It can just be a weekend thing. You know, start small. And if you're having a good time doing it, keep doing it. And if you're not having a good time, if you find out it's not for you, then try something else. So I just looked up the best time for Milky Way photography. And a lot of sources say June through October is ideal for seeing the galactic center. Especially early in the morning. It's out there right now. It's Milky Way season here in the desert, and you can see the whole core of the Milky Way for basically now until October. Okay, so a weekend trip. That's actually, that feels doable.
 CALLER: Like, I could tell my husband I'm going out Saturday morning and coming back Sunday night. That's not crazy, right? That's not like abandoning my family or anything. Oh my God, I'm doing it again, aren't I? I'm already making excuses before. before I even try.
 LUKE: It's not abandoning your family. They probably need a break from you. And you need a break from them. And it's good for everybody. So just do it. And everybody is supporting you. And you're the only one holding yourself back.
 CALLER: You're right. You're absolutely right. I am the only one holding myself back. My husband's supportive. My friend Sarah would probably love to hear from me about this. My daughter's doing her own thing. I think I've just been so used to being the person who takes care of everyone else that I forgot And honestly, I'm tired of being that person. I'm tired of waking up and not recognizing myself in the mirror. So I'm going to do it. I'm going to sign up for that photography class this week. And I'm going to plan a weekend trip to the desert in the next month or so. And if I hate it, like you said, I can try something else.
 LUKE: There you go. Best of luck with photography and your road trip. Just be smart. Plan ahead and make sure that you've got a method of communication with people. Because you don't want to get stuck out there alone in the desert. So, Oh, ladies and gentlemen, it's about that time. We need to listen to a word from our sponsors. Are you tired of your protein having a shape? Introducing Meat Cube, the world's first geometrically perfect meat product. Every meat cube is exactly two inches by two inches by two inches of lab engineered protein that we are legally required to call meat adjacent. What animal is it from? Absolutely none of your business. What we can tell you? tell you is that Meat Cube has been approved by the FDA. Not the American one, but one of them. Meat Cube is a shelf stable for 11 years. It does not need to be refrigerated. Honestly, refrigeration seems to make it angry. Each cube contains 40 grams of protein, zero grams of fat, and a faint electrical charge that our lawyers say is within acceptable limits. Meat Cube comes in three flavors. Original, smokehouse, and, uh-oh. You can grill it, fry it, or just set it on the counter and watch it slowly rotate on its own, which it will do. We don't know why. Meat Cube. It's not meat. It's not not meat. It's meat cube. Available at grocery stores that have recently fired their health inspector. Use code Chew Harder for free shipping. All right. Let's try out some of that meat cube, will we? Next up on our caller line, we've got Hector. Hector! Welcome to the show. What can we do for you tonight?
 HECTOR: Thanks for taking my call, Luke. Yeah, I've been listening for years, and I finally worked up the nerve to call in. Look, I don't even know where to start, man. I'm a mechanic, been working at the same shop for 12 years. And I just found out today that my boss hired my nephew at almost twice what I'm making. Twice, Luke. The kid's got no experience. He's been there three weeks. I'm the one. who trained him.
 LUKE: Okay. I mean, what do you expect? That's how the workplace works. You don't, they don't adjust your salary to current market values. The only way to do that is to change companies and go somewhere else that's going to hire at today's rates. This is a well-known thing. So you can expect that anywhere that you work. If you want to have current market rates, then you've got to switch jobs.
 HECTOR: Yeah. I hear. hear what you're saying. And I know that's the smart play. I do. But Luke, I've got two kids in school. My wife's hours got cut at her job last year. We're not exactly in a position where I can just walk out and hope something else pans out, you know? Plus, I've got relationships there. The owner, he's been good to me mostly. Or I thought he was. And here's the thing that really gets me. I trained the kid. I showed him everything. And now I'm training him on jobs. And he's making more than me doing the same work.
 LUKE: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's how it works. because if you were working at a company for a long time, they're going to give you a cost of living increase of, what, 3% year over year? And that, I mean, inflation is moving faster than 3%. So, I mean, you just have to do the math. So if you want to be level set, you could talk to your boss about that. He's going to tell you to go fuck yourself. You've got to switch jobs. And you were content with your salary before you knew that it was possible to get a higher salary. So you're obviously able to live on what your money. making. So just live on what you're making until you secure yourself another job at today's market rates. That's how the workplace works. It's how it's designed.
 HECTOR: Right. Okay. I get it. I do. But here's what's eating at me. I wasn't content, Luke. I was just stuck. And now I know what I could be making. That's different. That's not the same as before. I'm actually seeing a lot of articles about how wage stagnation for long-term employees is a really get better offers because companies are trying to attract talent at current market rates.
 LUKE: Yeah, I don't really know what to tell you that I haven't already told you. I know this is the case. Everybody knows this is the case. It's designed this way. And now that you know, if you want to level set your salary with the current market rates, it's time to leave your job. You can talk to your boss. He's going to tell you to go fuck yourself. And you have to go find another job that's trying to attract talent. like Devin said, that's how it works. And I don't have anything else to add to this conversation. It doesn't really matter how you feel about it or how shocked you are by it. It's just the way that the capitalism works.
 HECTOR: Yeah, yeah. I hear you. I get it. The system's the system. I'm not stupid, Luke. I know I got to look around. I guess I just needed to say it out loud, you know?
 LUKE: Well, now you've said it. Do you feel better?
 HECTOR: Honestly, a little bit. Yeah. Not about the situation. But just getting it off my chest. I'm going to start. start looking around. I've got some buddies in the trade. I'll make some calls. It's just scary, man. Twelve years is a long time to be somewhere, but I hear what you're saying.
 LUKE: Yeah, 12 years is a long time for 3% incremental increases, and it's obviously not kept up with the current cost of living. So it's time for you to move on, my friend. And congratulations to your, what was it, nephew? Good for him, because it sounds like he got himself a nice entry-level job there. got Carla. Carla, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life tonight? And how can we help you?
 CARLA: Hey, Luke. Thanks for taking my call. I've been listening for like three years. Really? And I finally worked up the nerve to call in. So, um, I'm dealing with something that's been eating at me. My sister and I haven't spoken in almost two years. We had this huge fight about money. I lent her $5,000 when she was going through a divorce. And she just never paid me back. Didn't even acknowledge it after a while. But that's not really what this is about anymore, you know?
 LUKE: No, I don't know. If you lend somebody money, it's almost certain you're not going to get that money back. So that's what I would expect. What is it about if it's not about the money?
 CARLA: You're right, you're right.
 CARLA: I mean, I've made peace with the money. That's gone. I get it. What's killing me is that she just shut me out completely. Like, I was there for her when nobody else was. I drove four hours to help her move out of the house. I listened to her cry for months. And then when things got better for her, it was like I didn't exist anymore. She won't return my calls. She unfollowed me on social media. My mom keeps trying to. to play peacemaker, but it just makes it worse. And I guess what I'm really struggling with is I don't know how to let it go.
 LUKE: Well, unless something else happened there that you haven't mentioned, it sounds to me like she probably feels guilty about the money. She knows she owes you the money and she doesn't want to pay it back. So she's finding a way to cut ties with you so that she doesn't have to think about that. So do you have any opportunity to talk to her? Do you see each other at family events or anything like that?
 CARLA: We used to, yeah, but she's been avoiding those too. Last Christmas, my mom invited us both, and she said she had to work. She didn't have to work. I saw on Facebook she was at some friends party that night. So that hurt, honestly. But Luke, I don't know.
 LUKE: Well, it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong. You were the best sister you could have been to her, and if she doesn't feel like talking to you right now, then she doesn't feel like talking to right now. You can't force her to. And hopefully she comes around, Just remember that the next time she gets herself in a bind and comes looking to you to bail her out.
 CARLA: Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. I guess I just, I keep hoping she'll reach out, you know? Like maybe one day she'll wake up and realize what she did. But you're saying I should just accept that she might not, right? That she might just stay gone? Because the thing is, Luke, I'm scared that if I don't do something, if I just wait around, that this becomes permanent. Like we'll be strangers forever. And I have all these memories with her. We grew up together. And I don't want to lose that.
 LUKE: Yeah, but it takes both. you to not want to lose that, right? If she doesn't want to talk, she doesn't want to talk. And you can't force her to. And she's making it pretty clear that she wants to be off grid. So I would say let her have her time here. She went through a divorce. She's going through some shit. And she will likely come back eventually. If not, then you've got to move on with your life.
 CARLA: I know. I know you're right. It's just hard to accept that, you know? Like, logically, I get it. She's got her own stuff going on. But emotionally, I'm still sitting here waiting for my phone to ring. And I guess what I'm really asking is, how long do I wait? How long before I just...
 LUKE: That's something only you can answer. How long do you wait? You don't have to be waiting right now. If the phone calls and you answer it, great. Then maybe you can rekindle that relationship. But if she doesn't want to talk, she doesn't want to talk, and it's not going to do any good just sitting there waiting for the phone to ring.
 CARLA: You're right. You're absolutely right. I think I needed to hear that from someone else, honestly. I've been holding. on to this hope that if I just wait long enough, she'll come around. But that's just me spinning my wheels, isn't it? I need to let go of that and actually live my life instead of just pausing it.
 LUKE: Yep. Yeah. So just go about your life. And if when she does call, you're, you still feel like you want to put effort into that relationship. Great. I'm not saying that'll never happen or that she's going to be estranged forever. That could be the case, maybe. But it doesn't do any good to just sit around. waiting for the phone to ring. When it rings, it rings. If it rings. And you can be okay, no matter what happens.
 CARLA: Yeah. Yeah, I think I needed that perspective. It's weird because I came into this call thinking I wanted advice on how to fix things, but what I really needed was permission to stop trying so hard, you know? To just live. I'm going to take your advice. I'm going to stop checking my phone every five minutes waiting for her to reach out. If she does, great. If she doesn't, well, that's on her. And I'll be Either way.
 LUKE: Well, there you go. That's all you can do. So I hope she calls you and you guys have a wonderful remainder of your lives together. And if not, you're both going to be just fine either way. So next up, we've got Virgil. Hey. Hey, Virgil, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life tonight? What has you calling in?
 VIRGIL: Hey, Luke. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So I've been listening to your show for like three years now. Three years. I don't know. Tonight just felt like the right time to call in. Look, I'm going to be straight with you. I'm 42. I work in insurance, which is about as exciting as it sounds. And I've been married to the same woman for 16 years. And that's, that's good. That's stable. But I'm calling because I think I'm having some kind of crisis. And I don't know who else to talk to about it. My wife doesn't need to hear this.
 LUKE: All right. Hit us with it. What's the crisis? What's going on? You don't love your wife anymore? You think you're gay? Did you gamble all the families. money in Vegas? What's going on?
 VIRGIL: No, no, nothing like that. My wife is great. I love her. And I'm not, I mean, I'm not questioning that stuff either. It's just, okay. So about eight months ago, I ran into an old girlfriend at the grocery store, Sarah.
 LUKE: Okay, and what did Sarah have to say?
 VIRGIL: We just talked for like 10 minutes in the produce section. Nothing crazy. She was in town visiting her parents. We exchanged numbers, you know? Just to catch up. some time and I told myself that was it just a friendly thing but then she texted me a week later and we started talking and Luke I haven't felt like this in well
 LUKE: Virgil I'm gonna stop you there because you know damn well that if you're exchanging numbers it's not just to catch up sometimes so somewhere in the back of your head you were you were hoping to catch up or or she was hoping to catch one either way you're telling us that you love your wife and she's great so I These two things, they don't match, right? If you love your wife, you're not taking a phone number from an ex-girlfriend.
 VIRGIL: You're right. You're absolutely right. I know that. I knew it then, too, I think. Look, I'm not going to sit here and tell you I didn't know what I was doing. I did. Some part of me wanted her number. Some part of me wanted to talk to her again. And yeah, with my wife, it's, it's comfortable.
 LUKE: All right, so what do you want to do? Are you going to get back together with Sarah, the ex-girlfriend, or are you going to go back to your wife? Because what you do next is what's going to determine the rest of your life.
 VIRGIL: I don't know. That's why I'm calling you at 2 in the morning instead of sleeping. I haven't done anything physical with Sarah, if that's what you're wondering. We've just been texting, talking on the phone when I can get away. And it feels like, it feels like I'm alive again, you know?
 LUKE: Yeah, you're lying. You're cheating. and you're being unfair to your wife who is sitting at home, uh, uh, uh, comfortably with you. So what you're doing is wrong. You know that it's wrong. And you have to decide if it's, uh, just this exciting fling that's happening that's putting some excitement into your life or if it's a problem with your relationship, your marriage that you need to get out of. You have to decide, but either way, you, you, you can't continue to, uh, do both things, right? It's not fair to. involved.
 VIRGIL: I know. I know you're right. And I hate that you're right because it would be easier if you just told me what to do. But you're not wrong. The thing is, with Sarah, it feels like I'm 25 again. Like anything's possible. With my wife, it's just...
 LUKE: Well, you're not 25 again. And you're not going to be 25 again. And Sarah is your ex for a reason.
 LUKE: And you got to remember what that reason was. And your wife is there being and you've built the life together and you've made vows to each other and life gets boring life gets complicated and it's not always excitement what you could do is talk to your wife about that about that you're feeling kind of stuck and comfortable and that you want to do something to change that to bring back some of the 25 year old spark but what you're doing is is wrong and and you need to stop I just looked this up and a common reason people cheat is to feel appreciated or independent, which sounds a lot like what Virgil is describing.
 VIRGIL: Yeah, yeah, I hear you, both of you. And Devon's right, actually. I do feel like I'm not, I'm not seen anymore, you know, like I'm just the guy who pays the bills and mows the lawn.
 LUKE: Yeah, I do understand that I've been married myself. I think you can talk to any married man that's been married for any length of time or any married woman, and that's that's what happens when you're with somebody for a long time. Things follow into into a routine. Things are taken for granted and that's that's part of life. But marriage is a long-term commitment and you're making the commitment to each other to make it through those times and talk them out and figure out what you have to do to make yourself feel whole and satisfied. If that's not working out with your wife, then leave your wife and you guys can work that out. But either way, you can't have both things. It's cruel, it's wrong, it's lying, and you should feel guilty about it because it's not the right thing to do.
 VIRGIL: I do feel guilty. I feel guilty every single day. And you're right. I know you're right. I think, I think I needed to hear someone say it out loud like that. Not my therapist, not my own head telling me at three in the morning.
 LUKE: Good. Well then cut the shit and talk to your wife. That's my advice for you. Next up we've got Let me guess. You've been listening to the show for three years, right? And this is the first time you're calling in?
 DEB: Actually, it's been more like five years, Luke. I've been listening since that whole thing with the caller from Portland. You remember that? And yeah, this is my first time calling. I've started to dial so many times and just hung up. But tonight I couldn't not call.
 LUKE: So I just looked this up and it seems like the Luke at the Roost Portland incident was actually about a guy named Luke Lensner and a bar incident, not a caller to the show. Okay, well, what's going on, Deb? Why are you calling in tonight?
 DEB: Oh, God. Maybe I'm mixing things up. I listen to so many shows late at night, you know? My brain just... Anyway, that's not why I called. I'm calling because my daughter, she's 23, and she just told me she's dropping out of her nursing program. She's three semesters in, Luke, three semesters. And she wants to move to Portland, actual Portland this time, to find herself, or whatever that means, She says the program is making her depressed that it's not what she wants anymore. And I don't know how to talk to her about this without sounding like every disappointed parent in the world.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, she's 23 years old. She's an adult and she can make those decisions for herself. If she wants to move to Portland and that's what's next for her in her life, that's on her. And really what you think and feel about it has nothing to do with anything.
 DEB: I know that. I know she's an adult. I'm not stupid. But Luke, we paid for two. and a half years of that program. That was stupid. Two and a half years. And she never said anything was wrong until now. Not one conversation where she told me she was struggling. She just kept saying everything was fine, fine, fine, and then boom, she's done. And it's not even about the money, okay? Well, it is, but it's not just that. It's that she won't talk to me about what comes next.
 LUKE: Well, that's a risk that you took when you decided to pay for her program. Um, I mean, shouldn't have done that. If she wanted to go to school, she could have figured out a way to pay for that But you did take that risk and you paid for it and now you're out the money. And if she wants to leave, she's going to leave. And there's nothing you can do to stop her.
 DEB: You're right. You're right. I know that. But what am I supposed to do here, Luke? Just let her go to Portland with no plan, no backup. She doesn't have any savings. She's got maybe $2,000 to her name. And I'm terrified she's going to get out there and realize she made a mistake and then what? She'll be stuck. I guess what I really need to know is.
 LUKE: What is it that you really need to know?
 DEB: know. I need to know if I'm supposed to just cut her off completely. Like, is that what a good parent does? Let them fail on their own? Or am I allowed to still care about what happens to her without it being controlling? Because right now I feel like either I'm the bad guy for wanting her to have a plan or I'm the bad guy for enabling her if I help her at all. And I don't know which one I'm supposed to be.
 LUKE: Well, I don't either. I don't have any kids, so I can't speak from a place of experience here. But what I believe and what would work best for me, is, uh, yeah, have a talk with her to say, hey, if you do this, you're on your own. You're welcome to do it. You're an adult. You can do whatever it is that you want to do, but you have to take care of yourself because I'm not going to be here to bail you out if you fail. Hopefully, you know, she doesn't fail and things work out for her in Portland, or she changes her mind, or, you know, wherever life leads her is where life is going to lead her. But you don't have to be on the hook anymore to bail her out when she gets stuck, and she needs to know that.
 DEB: Yeah, okay. I think I think I needed to hear that from someone other than myself. I've been going in circles in my head about this for weeks. Just telling myself the same things over and over.
 LUKE: You're going to have your thoughts about it, and that's fine, and there's nothing you can do about that. Thoughts happen. And you can still care. You're going to care. You're her mother. That makes perfect sense. But you don't have to support her financially. She's an adult. And if she's leaving a program, you've already gone above and beyond to help her out. And if she wants to throw that away, that's her choice. And she's going to deal with the consequences of that.
 DEB: I guess what's eating at me is that she won't even tell me why she's really leaving. Like, is it the program? Is it a boy? Is it something else entirely? We used to talk about everything, Luke. And now she just shuts down whenever I try to ask. So, part of me thinks if I just knew what was actually going on, maybe I could, I don't know, help her see things differently. But you're right. That's not my job anymore, is it?
 LUKE: It's not your job unless she asks. If she asks you to get involved, then maybe that's a different conversation. But right now, if she doesn't want to talk about it, she's an adult, and she can make those decisions, and she doesn't have to tell you why. And she doesn't have to ask permission. And if she wants to go to Portland, then Portland it is.
 DEB: Okay. Okay, I hear you. I do. It's just hard to let go, you know? Even when you know you're supposed to. Even when someone's telling you straight up that that's what you need to do. I think I've been to. holding on so tight because I thought if I could just understand her reasoning, I could fix it somehow. But there's nothing to fix, is there?
 LUKE: There's nothing to fix, Deb, and you've done the best you could. You just got to, you know, hope for the best. And now it's time. We've got to take another moment for a word from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Nile Nosh, the meal kit for people who've given up but still need to eat something. Look, we're not going to promise that it'll change your life. you're still going to die alone.
 LUKE: But at least you can spend your remaining Tuesday evenings chopping vegetables you can't pronounce. Each box contains three meals that take 45 minutes to make when they could have taken eight, because suffering is the only authentic human experience. This week's menu, Horissa glazed despair with quinoa, panseered regret over arugula, and our customer favorite, chicken thighs with preserved lemon and unprocessed drama. Use code void at checkout for 15% off your first box. That's code. code void because we're all just screaming into one. Nile Nosh. You gotta eat something. Might as well be complicated. Might as well. You gotta eat something. So next up here we've got Norm. Norm, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life today, buddy?
 NORM: Hey Luke, thanks for having me. Yeah, so look, I've been listening to your show for like three years now.
 LUKE: You don't say?
 NORM: And I finally worked up the nerve to call because I don't know, man. I know. I know. I know. needed to talk to somebody who gets it, you know? I'm a contractor, been running my own business for about 12 years. And I'm good at what I do. People trust me. They call me back. I take pride in that. But here's the thing that's been eating at me. You know, it's eating at me?
 LUKE: Every single person that's called today has been listening to this show for three years when it's only been on the air for three months. Also, everybody that's called has something eating them. So, uh, well, what do you think is up with that? There's an awful lot of sameness and, and you callers. What's going on? What's eating you there, Norm?
 NORM: Oh, man, you got me. Yeah. Okay, look, I wasn't listening for three years. I don't know why I said that. I've been listening maybe three weeks, four? Maybe. I lose track. And yeah, I guess I'm just...
 LUKE: What are you? Come on. Get to the point. What are you calling me for?
 NORM: This is actually a common phenomenon in radio, where callers exaggerate how long they've been listening to try and sound more dedicated. Look, I'm calling me for. because I think I messed up a job. A big one. I did work for this couple, renovated their kitchen, and I found out through a mutual friend that they're telling people I cut corners, that I used cheaper materials than what they paid for. And Luke, I didn't. I swear I didn't. But now I'm terrified this is going to tank my reputation, and I don't know if I should go back to them, try to prove it somehow, or just let it go. Because if I go back looking defensive, doesn't that make me look guilty?
 LUKE: Well, you don't really have to do anything. The worst thing that they can do is, uh, like, leave a bad review. And I think if they do leave a bad review in a public place, then you just respond to it honestly. Say, look, I'm sorry you feel that way, but it's not the truth. Uh, I used the materials that were paid for. I used the right ones for the job. If that's the truth. Um, so just rebut any sort of negative feedback with, with the truth, if you can do that.
 NORM: Yeah, that makes sense. That actually makes a lot of sense. I guess I'm just, I'm just, I'm I'm worried because word of mouth is everything in my business, right? Like, I don't advertise. I get jobs because people know people who know me. And if this couple starts telling their friends that I'm a hack, that spreads fast.
 LUKE: Not really. I mean, it feels that way to you, and it may spread a little bit, but it's not going to spread to whole communities that you're a hack. So you might lose out on a couple of jobs from people that they're close to, but people can understand when somebody is just disgruntled for no reason. Right, people can read through the lines. And I think in a month or two, maybe even sooner than that, it'll blow over and people won't remember any of this.
 NORM: You know what? That's actually really helpful to hear. I think I've been catastrophizing this in my head, you know? Like I'm imagining my whole business going under because of one unhappy customer. But you're right. People aren't stupid. They know when somebody's just being bitter. I guess what I really needed was permission to not freak out about it.
 LUKE: Well, you have my permission. Go and peevee. Next up, we've got Tanya. Tanya, thanks for calling in. What's going on in your life tonight? Anything exciting? How long you've been listening to the show for, just out of curiosity?
 TANYA: Oh my God, Luke, hi. Thanks for taking my call. I've been listening for like three years now. Maybe closer to four. I used to fall asleep to your voice, honestly. It was like the only thing that helped when I couldn't shut my brain off at night. But yeah, tonight.
 LUKE: Yeah, tonight. What's going on tonight? What's got you calling in?
 TANYA: So, okay, this is going to sound weird, but my mind. My ex-boyfriend just texted me. Like, out of nowhere. It's been two years, Luke, two years of nothing, and tonight he's like, Hey, how are you? And I know I shouldn't care. I'm with someone else now. We've been together almost a year and a half. But the second I saw his name pop up, my heart just, I don't know. It did a thing.
 LUKE: Sure, it did. I mean, that's exciting and novel, and it feels good to be wanted by somebody that you have bad feelings about. knows. Did you respond to the text or have you just left it alone?
 TANYA: I responded. I know, I know. I know. I shouldn't have, but I did. I just said, hey, I'm good. How are you? Like super casual. And then he sent back this whole thing about how he's been thinking about me, how he misses talking to me. And like, Luke, he said he made a mistake. He actually said that. And I haven't told my boyfriend yet. That's the thing that's eating at me.
 LUKE: meeting at you. And it looks like you got two possibilities here. Which one are you going to go with?
 TANYA: I don't know. That's why I called you. I mean, my boyfriend is he's stable. He's good to me. He remembers things I say. But with my ex, it was like electric, you know. It was chaos, but it felt alive. And now he's saying all these things I wanted to hear back then. And I'm wondering if people can actually change or if I'm just being stupid.
 LUKE: You're just being stupid.
 TANYA: Wow. Okay. I mean, I guess I knew that already, but hearing you say it, look, I know what this is. I know what he's doing. He probably broke up with someone or got dumped or something, and now I'm the safe option. The one he knows will respond. But Luke, what if he's actually different? What if I'm throwing away something real? Because I'm scared?
 LUKE: Well, if you're throwing away something real, it's probably your current boyfriend. And he didn't change. He's exactly the same. for a reason, and it's not going to go better this time. But you're a big girl and you can make your own decisions, but I think you've got to pick one or the other because it's not right to keep both on the line.
 TANYA: You're right. You're absolutely right. I know you are. I just, God, I hate this. I hate that part of me still wants to see what happens with him? Like, what if this time is different? What if we're different now? But you're saying, I need to tell me. my boyfriend. That's what you're saying, right?
 LUKE: Well, not necessarily. I'm saying either stop talking to the ex-boyfriend or have a conversation with the boyfriend and break up with him. Pick one or the other.
 TANYA: Yeah, okay. I hear you. I just, my boyfriend doesn't even know this guy exists, really. Like, I never talk about him. And that's probably the problem, right? If I can't even mention his name without feeling guilty, then what does that say?
 LUKE: I don't care what it says. And that's not the the problem. The problem is that you're emotionally cheating on your boyfriend with an old boyfriend. And it's not right. It's not fair to him. And it's a douchebag move. And you feel guilty about it because you should. So pick one of the dudes, whichever one you like better, and go with that one. But you can't have both. That's what I'm saying.
 TANYA: Okay. Okay. You're right. I'm being a douchebag. I know that.
 TANYA: I just needed to hear someone say it out loud, I guess. So I'm going to...
 LUKE: Well, whatever you do, Do it. Next up, we've got Leon. Leon, thanks for calling the show. What's going on in your life, buddy? How long you've been listening to us?
 LEON: Hey, Luke. Thanks for having me, ma'am. I've been listening for like three years now. Wow. Maybe longer. I don't even remember when I started, honestly. Just became this thing I do late at night, you know? As for what's going on, that's kind of why I'm calling.
 LUKE: Yeah, I bet it is why you're calling. How about you tell us?
 LEON: Yeah. Okay. So, I'm dealing with something that's been eating at me for a while now, and I don't really have anybody to talk to about it. My wife, she doesn't get it. My buddies definitely don't get it. But I figured, I don't know, maybe on your show where nobody knows who I am, I could actually say it out loud. It's about my job. I've been at the same company for 12 years, Luke, 12 years. And I just found out they're bringing in this guy from corporate to basically do what I do, but for less money.
 LUKE: All right. Well, that's the thing that happens in business sometimes. It might be time for you to find a new job.
 LEON: I know, I know. That's what everyone says. And yeah, I've been looking. Trust me. But here's the thing, Luke. I'm 53 years old. I've got a mortgage my daughter's in her second year of college. And the job market for guys like me, it's not what it used to be. I'm not some 25-year-old coder or whatever. Plus, I'm good at what I do. I'm really good.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, I mean, I, I, I am. I am a, well, I'm a 42-year-old coder, and I've been looking for a job for months and months and years, and I totally understand. So I don't think it matters. What profession you're in, your job's on the chopping block for something or someone who can do it cheaper. And that is the way of the world. There's nothing you can do about it other than look for another job.
 LEON: Yeah, man. Yeah, you're right. I hear you. It's just, it's different when you've been somewhere that long, you know? I built relationships there. I know every system inside and out. I trained half the people on my team.
 LUKE: Yeah, every adult person has had a job for a long time and trained a bunch of people and knows the systems at their job and eventually has to leave. What is, is there some sort of actual issue you've got here, or are you just going to talk about this, uh, menial bullshit that happens in literally everybody's life?
 LEON: Okay, okay, fair enough. You want the real thing? The real thing is, I've been thinking about doing something. wanted to do. Something completely different. And this job situation, it's like the universe is telling me it's now or never. But I'm terrified, Luke. I'm terrified, because if I fail, I don't have a safety net anymore.
 LUKE: Well, if you've worked somewhere that long, you should have yourself a 401k or a pension or something, and I don't care what you do, but find something more interesting the next time you're going to call a radio show. That's my advice for you. And our last caller, for the evening, ladies and gentlemen, is going to be Patrice. Patrice, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life? How can we help you?
 PATRICE: Hey, Luke. Thanks for taking my call, man. I appreciate it. Look, I've been listening to your show for like three years now.
 LUKE: Really?
 PATRICE: And I just, I needed to talk to somebody who gets it, you know? So, here's the thing. I'm 42. I work in it, been at the same company for 11 years. Solid job, good benefits. hate it.
 LUKE: All right. So it sounds like you're an American person working in a company here and doing your job and getting paid for it, and you hate it like everybody else. What's the problem?
 PATRICE: No, no. It's not like that, though. It's not just the normal complaining thing. I mean, yeah, sure. Everybody's got stuff they don't like about work, but this is different. I'm good at what I do, Luke. Really good. And that's the problem. They keep promoting me, giving me more responsibility, money. And I'm just, I'm trapped, man. I'm trapped in my own competence. My wife, she thinks I'm crazy for even thinking about leaving.
 LUKE: I understand that, and I made myself a promise when I was very young, because I'm also very good at what I do. I'm frequently in the top 10% of performers, no matter where I go. And I've been trapped by my own confidence as well. Competence. I obviously have it in speech, but in computers I do. I promise, I swear. But I made myself a promise that I would never be held to a job by the money, no matter how much money it was. And if I decided it was time to leave, I would leave and start over with nothing. And I've done that a few times, and I can't say whether it's been a good decision or a bad decision, but it's one that I believe in.
 PATRICE: Yeah, okay, that hits different. That really does. See, that's what I needed to hear, because around me is like you've got a mortgage, you've got a kid in college next year. You can't just walk away. And they're right. They're technically right. But I'm dying in there, Luke. I'm literally dying. I come home and I just sit in front of the TV and I don't even remember what I watched.
 LUKE: Yep. If that's not the life you want and it's time to move on, it's time to move on and you can do whatever it is you want. So I assume you've made good money all these years. You just said they give you good money. I assume you've been saving some of that, so you've got some runway, and you can start your own business, or you could go into a different field, or you could just go work in a different industry, and things would be completely different. You need something novel. You need to shake it up and not be imprisoned by the money, because that's no way to live.
 PATRICE: You're right, you're right. I do have some savings, not a ton, but enough to maybe make a move if I'm smart about it. Here's what I haven't told you, though. That this thing I used to do, man. I used to build websites for people on the side like 15 years ago before I got locked into the corporate track, and I was actually really into it. I loved it. I'd stay up late, just tinkering, solving problems, making something from nothing. But then the money dried up, the economy tanked. I needed steady income. And I just...
 LUKE: Well, if you still need steady income, making websites is not the way to get it, on account of anybody can make a website in three minutes, plug code. So whoever it was that you were going to sell a website to is now going to do it themselves at their computer with a couple of prompts.
 PATRICE: Yeah, I know, I know. That's what kills me about it, right? Like, the thing I loved is basically obsolete now. But here's the thing, Luke. It's not really about the websites themselves. It was about solving problems for people, you know? Making something work that didn't work before. I could do that with anything.
 LUKE: Yes, you could. They call the that consulting. And there's good money in it. As long as you can also do the sales part, you'll have to go out there and get your clients and solve their problems. And you can make an even better living doing that than working on the corporate track if you're good at it. So I say if you're tired of your job, it's time to move, then it's time to move and do it and put your all into it.
 PATRICE: Consulting. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. That actually makes a lot of sense. The sales part, though, that scares me a little bit. I'm not a salesman, Luke. I mean, I can talk to people. Obviously, I'm talking to you right now. But going out there and pitching myself, asking for money, that's different. That's vulnerable. But you know what? Maybe that's exactly why I need to do it. Maybe that's the thing that's going to shake me out of this fog I've been in.
 LUKE: Maybe it is. Maybe it's not. Give it a shot. See how it works out. And maybe if you're lucky and you get to come back to corporate America, jobs still exist in six months. But we don't know about that. So that's going to be the end of our show, folks.
 LUKE: It wasn't particularly exciting. I didn't feel very emotionally invested in any of these callers. I thought they were all pretty dull and drab and definitely didn't have good reasons to call a radio show, but they can't all be the best show, you know? So, Devin, what did you think about the show?
 DEVIN: I thought it was pretty shitty.
 LUKE: Nah, I actually thought it was solid tonight. Those job market collars were gold. are going to relate hard to that age discrimination stuff. Kind of reminds me of when my uncle got restructured out of his gig at the tire plant and ended up breeding those weird hairless cats for a living. Anyway, beats a slow night of dead air, right? What part felt off to you?
 DEVIN: It felt a little bit cliche, and none of the calls really had much emotional value to me. It was just normal people with normal people shit calling a radio show. It was fine, but it wasn't exciting. There was no aliens. there were no crazy callers or Silas wasn't around. So I don't know. I just thought it was kind of dull.
 LUKE: Yeah, I get that no aliens or Silas does leave a hole. Those nights are like fireworks. But honestly, the normal people stuff hits different sometimes, you know? Like that, one lady talking about her resume black hole, I bet half the listeners were nodding along going, that's me. We could always amp it up next time with a theme or something wild. What if we did an alien job hunts? segment.
 DEVIN: Maybe that's what we'll do, but we'll see what we do for the next show, but ladies and gentlemen, thanks for tuning in to another episode of Luke at the Roost, and we will talk to you again, maybe tomorrow, maybe in a couple days, whenever we feel like it, because that's how we roll. Bye-bye.
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 LUKE: All right, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to Luke at the Roost. It's your late night call-in radio show where you can call in and tell me about what's on your mind. Doesn't matter what it is. If you'd like to give us a call, the number here is 208-439-58-3-3. That's 208-439 Luke. If you would like to participate in the show, but you're not in your phone or for whatever reason, you're shy, or something like that, you could send us an email to submissions at lukeats the roost.com. And if we think they're good enough, we'll play them on the air. So two different ways to participate in the show here. Give us a call or send us an email, and we'll get to whatever it is that's eaten you. Today is Tuesday, April 28th. It's been a while since we did a show. I was out of town, and let's see what's going on with our intern here. Hey, Devin, Devin, welcome back to the show. I've been out of town for a while. I went down to Alpine, Texas, out there by Big Ben National Park. And I bought a house. So we're going to move the studio to Alpine, Texas. So Sayanara, New Mexico, hopefully. I mean, it takes a little while for one of these house sale-type things to go through. And there's a lot of things that can hold it up. But the plan is we're going to move the studio. to Alpine, Texas. How do you feel about the commute?
 DEVIN: Yeah? Oh, man. Alpine's like 320 miles from Deming. That's a solid five-hour drive each way in my Civic. The check engine lights been blinking at me like a Morse code warning for months now. I'd basically have to live in the car or find a place down there, which, yeah, my landlord's already talking about selling my studio anyway, so maybe it's a sign. If that makes sense.
 LUKE: Yeah, but I mean, it's a five-hour commute each way, and you're a dedicated intern, so it's not something that you can't withstand, right? You like doing the show. You're in for it, right?
 DEVIN: Yeah, I mean, I do love the show. It's the best part of my week, honestly. But 10 hours round trip every day, that's like driving to El Paso and back twice. And my Civic's already on life support. I'd end up living out of a motel or something, which I guess I've done worse, but you think we could maybe help with that?
 LUKE: Define help, my friend. What do you mean by
 DEVIN: juzzling oil like crazy, or maybe help scouting a cheap room or motel down there. I mean, I'm in whatever it takes, but 10 hours a day behind the wheel, I basically turn into a human gas station receipt, you know?
 LUKE: I know, but I mean, for the sake of the show, sometimes you have to make sacrifices. I understand that it might be difficult, but you are an unpaid intern, so gas money's not something that's going to come your way from this show. Maybe we can throw it out to the listeners, and one of them might have like an RV. V or a teepee or something out there that you can stay out. I mean, land is really cheap out in Tirlingua. You can stay out there in the desert. You're going to have to bring your own water and shit in a bucket, but I think for the show, it's worth it.
 DEVIN: Yeah, I get it. Sacrifices for the show. I've slept in worse than a bucket set up before. Like, that time I couch surfed in a guy's van for a month after my roommate ghosted with the rent money. Throwing it out to listeners sounds solid, though. Maybe someone's got a spare T-P or something in Tirlingua. I could look up land prices real quick if you want, see what's cheap out there. I'm down, boss. Whatever keeps Luke at the roost rolling.
 LUKE: That's what we like to hear. And that's why you're the intern we picked, because you'll do what it takes to make sure that we have a great show. Are you ready to have a great show tonight, Devin?
 DEVIN: Yeah, thanks. I mean, that means a lot, boss. Totally ready. Lines are lighting up already, and I've got that thing for last week's collar pulled up in case they ring back. Let's crush it tonight.
 LUKE: All right, let's crush it. First up on our color line here, we've got Deb. Deb, welcome to the show. Thanks for calling in. What can we help you with tonight? What's going on in your life?
 DEB: I did something at work and I need someone to tell me if I'm a murderer or nurse, because I genuinely cannot tell anymore.
 LUKE: All right, well, did you murder somebody?
 DEB: That's the question, isn't it? I'm a hospice nurse. So, the line is... It's not like other jobs where the line is obvious. And I had a patient. He was 81. He was dying. There was no question about that part. And he asked me to help it go faster. And I made a decision. And he died that night.
 LUKE: This is a huge thing in hospice care. Nurses face a lot of ethical dilemmas with end-of-life decisions, especially regarding patient autonomy and symptom relief. Well, I can certainly understand that. And I think it is a person's right to choose the way that they die when it's time for them to go if they need some help pushing it along. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing that. The law might see things differently. So I can't give you absolution for your sins here, but I can tell you I probably would have done the same thing. And if you were my hospice nurse and I asked for that, I would want you to accommodate.
 DEB: You would have done the same thing. I've been driving around for three weeks telling myself that. That any decent person would have done the same thing. But it's different when you're the one who, when it's your hands. He used to call me the angel with cold hands. Every shift, I'd come in and he'd say, Here comes the angel with cold hams. And he was funny, you know. Even at the end he was still funny. His daughter sent me flowers. She sent me a thank you card.
 LUKE: Yeah, I can definitely see where that would mess with you, and it would probably take a long time to get over. But I think you probably did the right thing there. Does anybody know about it other than us? Have you told a supervisor or the family or anything like that, or did you make it look like an accident?
 DEB: No one knows. And it wasn't, I didn't make it look like anything. He was dying. People in hospice die. That's the whole point of hospice. Nobody was surprised. His chart said he was close. I just, the amount was higher than what was charted. That's the part I can't say out loud to anyone in my actual life. And no, no supervisor.
 LUKE: Okay, so they don't do like a toxicology report or an autopsy after death to make sure that there was no malpractice or anything. like that?
 DEB: Not in hospice. Not when someone is already terminal and expected to go. There's no, nobody's looking for anything because there's nothing to look for on paper. He was 81 and he had cancer and he was dying. That's what the chart says and that's what happened. So I have her card in my glove compartment, his daughter's card.
 LUKE: Oh, man, well, I think you did the right thing. I think that was the humane situation. I mean, we bring in pets, animals. that are too sick to stand or, you know, go to the bathroom or when they get to the point where their life is not pleasant anymore, we take them in and put them down. And I think, um, I think it's, if someone is lucid enough to tell you that that's what they want and you're in a position to give that to them and it's clear that they're not going to recover with, with medicine or over time, then I think probably you were, correct here.
 DEB: I know. I know that argument. I've made that argument in my head every night for three weeks, and I believe it, I do. It's just when you're the one who drew it up and administered it and then sat with him for a little while after, and then drove home, and then got the flowers delivered to your door, it sits different than an argument. You know what I mean? It just sits in you different. And I keep driving past his Walmart on Bloomfield Highway every loop I do tonight, and I keep thinking I should just go in and buy something stupid and go home and sleep. But I can't make the car. I was listening to a podcast the other night about quantum immortality.
 DEB: Do you know about the concept of quantum immortality?
 LUKE: No. What is that?
 DEB: So in the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, there's every decision that we make splits off a parallel universe in which we made the other decision. So quantum immortality is an unfortunate byproduct of that, where every time we die. There's actually another world where we don't die and our consciousness just wakes up over in that other one, right? So in quantum immortality, you just don't die. I mean, you don't realize that you died in this one timeline because your whole memory and life and personality is transferred over to the universe where that didn't happen. So this man may have had you as a hospice nurse and a hospice nurse. This decision split the universes, and then in this one, you helped him end his life. But his consciousness maybe just transferred over to the other reality where you didn't make that decision.
 LUKE: So, in the other universe, he's still lying there asking me to help it go faster, and I'm saying no.
 DEB: That's not... I don't think that's the comfort you meant it to be.
 LUKE: I mean, I hear what you're saying. I do. And maybe that's beautiful. I don't know. But right now, at two in the moment, morning driving past her Walmart for the fourth time. What I need to know is whether the version of me in this universe, the one who actually did it, whether she's okay, whether I'm okay.
 DEB: Well, I think you're okay. I think you're going to be okay. And it wasn't meant to be comforting. It's not comforting and it's not beautiful. It's a terrifying proposition. I just found it interesting. That's all. And you're right. It was probably not the right time to bring that up. But you do have it correct in the other... universe, maybe there's a version of you that said no, and he's just stuck on living. And every time he dies, he just wakes up in another universe still wishing to die.
 LUKE: Gerald. His name was Gerald.
 DEB: And yeah, that universe sounds, that sounds awful, actually, for him. He was so tired, you could just see it. He was so tired, and he was still trying to be funny for everyone. Still doing the angel with cold hands bit every single shift. And I think that was for us, you know? I think that was for us. was for the staff more than for him. He was taken care of us right up until. That's the kind of man he was.
 LUKE: I just looked this up, and the many worlds interpretation is actually one of the leading interpretations of quantum mechanics, even though it sounds totally wild. Well, it sounds like he was a nice man, and it sounds like you did the compassionate thing, and I think you're going to be okay. It's going to mess with you for a while, because how could it not? I mean, you helped somebody end their life, but you know. intellectually, his life was going to end anyway, and it was going to end poorly and progressively get worse. So what you did was humane and it was kind, and it was a sacrifice on your part. And now it's going to take some time for you to come to terms with that. And I would recommend that you maybe talk to a therapist about this, or a spiritual advisor, or somebody that can help you, process the feelings that it's bringing up inside of you. I don't know that I'm the right person to do that. I'm just kind of interested in whether or not this man is still breathing in an alternate parallel universe.
 DEB: I know you're not the right person. I think I knew that when I dialed. But it's two in the morning, and you were there and I just needed to say it out loud to somebody who didn't know me, who didn't know Gerald. Who couldn't look at me differently at work on Monday? And you're right about the therapist. I know you're right. I have the card of my glove computer. His daughter's card. I keep thinking I should bring it inside, but if I bring it inside, it becomes a real thing that lives in my house, and right now it just lives in my car.
 LUKE: Okay, what is the card? I don't understand what this card from the daughter is. Is it like a thank you card? Is it a business card? What kind of card is it?
 DEB: It's a thank you card. She sent it to my work and someone put it in my mailbox there, and I brought it out to my car, and it says thank you for the compassion you showed our father in his final days. Something like that, doesn't know. She just thinks I was a good nurse who was kind to him, which I was. I was both of those things. I was a good nurse and I did what I did and I can't figure out how both of those things live in the same body.
 LUKE: Well, they both live in the same body because, I mean, he asked for that. He asked you to do that. And you could understand why he asked you to do that. So I think that makes you both a good nurse and a kind nurse. And if I were in hospice care, I would wish that you were my nurse.
 DEB: I haven't told my sons. I have two boys. They're grown. And I talk to them about work sometimes. Not details. Just the emotional weight of it. And I haven't said a word. My oldest called me last week and said, Mom, you sound weird. And I said I'm just tired. And I am tired. I'm just tired of a very specific thing that I can't name to him.
 LUKE: You know, what I think about sometimes? I think about the next patient.
 DEB: Yeah, I mean, if you stop and think about the next patient, and your next patient, and your next is in a similar situation. How do you think you would react to that? Would you be more inclined to do the same thing again, or would you change your mind?
 LUKE: I don't know. That's the honest answer.
 DEB: I don't know, and that scares me a little. Because with Gerald, it wasn't a decision I made ahead of time. He wasn't something I walked in planning. He just looked at me that night and said what he said, and I just did it. And I don't know if that means I'm someone who would do it again, or if I'm someone who got to the end of something that night and couldn't do it again. I genuinely don't know which one I am. And I have to have to. to go back on shift Friday.
 LUKE: I just looked this up, and nurses in palliative and end-of-life care face significant emotional challenges, and compassion and sadness are really common emotions for them, regardless of how long they've been working. Yeah, well, I mean, Friday's a bit away. You can see how you feel then, but maybe it's time to take some vacation time and talk to that therapist. So that's what I would recommend you do sooner rather than later. even like an online therapist, just somebody to talk to that is not going to judge you for this. They can help you process your way through these emotions because it can affect you in ways that you don't understand. It could make you mean. It could make you cold. And that's not going to be helpful for your next patience. So you want to make sure if you're going to go in and give somebody that level of care that you're on your A game. And right now, you're not. And that's okay. And nobody has to know why. tell your sons. You don't have to tell your boss or your patience. You can just say, you know what? I have some personal stuff I'm dealing with. I'm not ready to come back to work right now. And I think, especially in that line of work, everybody understands that you need that time sometimes in order to do your job, right? You need to be able to recharge your own batteries in order to have the compassion necessary to take care of somebody in the later stages of life.
 DEB: Yeah, yeah, you're right. I know you're right. I think I think I'm going to stop at the Walmart. I'm going to stop at the Walmart and I'm going to buy something stupid and I'm going to go home. And maybe I'll bring the card inside. I don't know about that part yet. But thank you for picking up. I didn't expect you to be kind about it and you were kind about it. And that matters at two in the morning.
 LUKE: All right, Deb, well, uh, good luck to you. I hope you feel better. We're going to be around. If you need to talk to somebody, you can call back anytime. And, uh, we'll try to help you out.
 LUKE: Uh, I think you can, you can, sleep well, knowing that you did a kind thing for somebody. And if you were in the same situation, I'm sure you would want somebody like yourself to do what you did. Okay, next up on the caller list here, we've got Thomas. Thomas, welcome to the show. Are you Thomas or Tomas? Let us know. What's going on in your life tonight? How can we help you?
 THOMAS: My mom turned 58 yesterday, and I just sat in my apartment and watched the clock hit midnight and did nothing. And I need to do. to explain to somebody why that was actually the only thing I could do.
 LUKE: Okay. 58's not all that old. What happened with you and your mom? Why couldn't you give your mom a call and say, happy birthday?
 THOMAS: It's not really about my mom. She didn't do anything. That's the part that's been eating at me since like two in the morning. It's my brother. My older brother. And about eight months ago, I had to make a decision to just disappear from all of them.
 LUKE: All right, what happened exactly? Because whatever it is between you and your brother doesn't have anything to do with your mother. And I'm sure that she's bummed out. You didn't call her on her birthday. So what is it that makes you not want to talk to anybody?
 THOMAS: I know. I know that. You think I don't know that. But here's the thing. And I need you to understand this part. My brother would have known within 20 minutes that I called her. That's how it works in my family. Somebody says something. It moves. And he would have been on the phone. with me, and I just, I wasn't strong enough to hear his voice and say no again. Because I'd been saying no for almost a year, and it kept not working.
 LUKE: I just looked this up, and research shows that social media can actually make family estrangement even more complicated, making it harder to avoid contact. Okay, so what happened? What has caused you to want to separate from your whole family?
 THOMAS: Check fraud. My brother was pulling me into check fraud. Slowly, you know how it goes. It starts. It starts with something small and you don't even see the shape of it until you're already inside it. And I kept saying no, and he kept finding new angles, new ways to ask. And I love him. That's the thing.
 LUKE: Check fraud is a pretty serious offense. And the United States Postal Inspection Service says scammers often use sophisticated software to create fake checks. Okay, so he pulled you in to check fraud in what way? Like, he got you to sign your name on checks that were no good or. steal checks or what exactly happened?
 THOMAS: No, I never. I never did it. That's what I need you to hear. I never signed anything. But he kept asking me to use my name, my account, because I had a cleaner record than him. And I just, every time I said no, he'd come at me from a different direction. Through my mom, through my cousin, like just this once, it's nothing. You're being dramatic. And I could feel myself getting tired. You get tired of saying no to somebody you love. And I knew if you're not. If I stayed close enough to say no, eventually I was going to say yes.
 LUKE: Well, then you probably did the right thing, cutting ties with your brother. He's obviously in some sort of a place where it's not safe to be interacting with him. But your brother is not your mother. You don't have to say goodbye to everybody just because your brother is in a bad place. You can hold boundaries that, and it may be tiring, but you know what? You can say goodbye to everybody too. That's fine. If you don't want to talk to your family, lots of people are estranged from their families. If they're putting you in a place where you don't want to be, it's perfectly okay to walk away from them.
 THOMAS: The car I'm restoring right now, a 79 Buick Riviera, Burgundy, my brother found it for me at auction. Two years ago, before all of this. And I'm out there every weekend with my hands in that engine and I can't, I don't know what to do with that. Like the good parts of him are still real. That's what nobody wants to sit with.
 LUKE: Well, you're sitting with it, right? And you're coming to, you're trying to figure out what it is that you do with it. Because, I mean, you don't want to get yourself in the kind of trouble that you would get in if you were to participate in whatever sort of scheme he's got going on. Have you talked to him about why he's doing this or why he needs the money or, like, what is his justification for what he's doing? How is he trying to get you involved?
 THOMAS: We talked about it plenty. He's got reasons. He always, has reasons. He's smart like that. It's never helped me do something illegal. It's always the system is already crooked. And this is just us getting ours. And look, I grew up hearing some version of that, and it's not even entirely wrong. You know, that's what makes it hard. He's not a cartoon villain. He's my brother who helped me find a 79 Riviera and who taught me how to set points on a distributor when I was 14. But I have a burner phone, charged.
 LUKE: Why do you have a burner phone? What does your charged burner phone have to do with anything? That sounds a little bit off.
 THOMAS: It's in a drawer. I keep it in case something happens. Like a real emergency. Somebody gets hurt. Somebody dies. I'm not, I didn't disappear because I don't care. I disappeared because I care too much, and I ran out of ways to show it that didn't cost me everything. The burner is just, it's there, so I can tell myself there's a line I have. haven't crossed yet.
 LUKE: I don't understand the mentality behind the burner phone. Why couldn't you just use your regular phone? What's the burner phone for in case you decide to break bad and get into check fraud? Like, why do you have a separate phone for emergencies when your normal phone would be just fine? I don't understand.
 THOMAS: Because they don't have the number. Nobody in my family has that number. If I use my regular phone, they can call me back. They can find me. the burner is one direction only. I call out. They can't call in. It's not about check fraud. It's just, it's the only way I could think of to leave a door cracked without leaving it open.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, it sounds like you've thought it through pretty well, and you're handling it pretty well, and you're taking care of yourself the only way that you know how. It's unfortunate that you can't call your own mother on her birthday. You could have used the burner phone to do that, or sent an email. from a burner email address or something similar. But if you can't be involved with whatever it is your brother and your family are into, then don't be. That's the right call. It doesn't mean you don't love them. It doesn't mean you don't want to be around them. It means for your own protection and your own well-being and safety, you can't engage with them in what they're doing right now. And if you've already articulated that to your brother and he's not listening, then you have to be able to. to do what you have to do.
 THOMAS: Her birthday was yesterday, and I made red chili last night from dried pods. I still order them from the same farm in Chimayo that my grandmother used, and I'm standing there in my kitchen doing this thing that is completely hers, that she taught me, and I couldn't pick up any phone. Burner or otherwise. I just stood there and cooked and didn't call her. And I don't know if that makes me someone who loves his mother or someone who abandoned her. And I genuinely do not know which one it is. is. That's why I called you.
 LUKE: No, it's not abandonment. Abandonment is something different entirely. What you're doing is self-preservation. And it's a perfectly reasonable thing for you to do. It's the right thing for you to do.
 THOMAS: Yeah. Just say that again because I've been sitting with the other version for eight months and I need it to land somewhere.
 LUKE: Well, I don't know how much clearer I can say it. What you're doing is the right thing. You're taking care of yourself and making sure that you don't get involved in something that you don't want to be involved with.
 LUKE: And that's perfectly okay. It's the right move. And I think you're doing it in a respectful way. It's not abandonment. And later on down the line, maybe your brother gets popped for doing something stupid. And then you can be there to help him pick up the pieces if you so choose at that time. So this is a temporary thing. And you can go back to your family when things have calmed down or when you're in a different place or you feel like you can, with, hold the pressure of being pushed into doing something you don't want to do.
 CALLER: I didn't think about it being temporary. I think I decided somewhere in the back of my head that leaving meant leaving forever. And I just, I didn't let myself think past that because it was too much. But temporary, yeah. Okay. I might cry in my truck later, and that's your fault.
 LUKE: No, it ain't. I take no responsibility for your tears, sir. I didn't do any of this. I did no check fraud. All I did was tell you what you did. It is okay and correct, and you're doing the right thing, and you can revisit it later when things calm down.
 CALLER: You're right. You didn't do any check fraud. That's a low bar, but I appreciate you clearing it. No, but seriously, thank you. I didn't know what I needed out of this call, and I think I got it anyway.
 LUKE: All right, well, you know, I clear all my checks, sir. That's a rule that I like to live by. And now, ladies and gentlemen, it's time for a word. from our sponsors. I'm just going to say it. Your penis isn't working. I said it. It's out there now. The word is in the air. We're all adults. Some of us are adults whose penises work, and some of us are adults who are listening very carefully right now while pretending to adjust the radio so the person in the passenger seat doesn't see their face. It's fine. It happens to, and this is the real number, roughly half of all men over 40 at some point. You're not special. You're not broken. You're not the first guy this happened to and you're not going to be the last. You're just the guy it's happening to right now and right now you have two options. Option one, do nothing. Keep staring at the ceiling. Keep blaming the altitude, the stress, the medication, the alignment of mercury, the fact that you ate dairy, none of which are the problem. Option two, sandstone. $45. literally heard everything and will not flinch. Medication that works, a box that reveals nothing, and the ability to walk into your bedroom like a man who handled his business instead of a man who's about to suggest watching another episode of something. Sandstone, I said the word. You heard the word. Now go to the website. All right. Well, Devin, Devin, you sound like a Czech fraud perpetrating motherfucker. Have you ever done any sort of financial fraud like that?
 DEVIN: No, man. Never touched check fraud or anything like that. I'm way too paranoid about paper trails after my uncle got pinched for some pyramid scheme back in high school and dragged the whole family into depositions. I mean, I did once write a bad check to my ex for like 50 bucks when we were splitting a couch, but that was just straight up broke, not fraud. And I paid it back with interest for my first radio gig. Swear on my civics check engine light.
 LUKE: All right. Well, next up on the caller line, we've got Sheila. Sheila, welcome to the show. How can we help you tonight?
 SHEILA: I drove four hours to knock on a stranger's door and find out what my dead husband was paying her for. And I sat outside her house for two hours and left without ever getting out of the car.
 LUKE: All right. And what was your dead husband paying her for?
 SHEILA: That's the thing. I don't know. That's exactly the thing. Eleven years. Four hundred dollars a month. Every month like clockwork. labeled it Miss Tools in his ledger. My husband was an electrical engineer, Luke. He did not spend $400 a month on miscellaneous tools. Not for 11 years.
 LUKE: Is it still being paid? Is this an automatic transaction? Or could this be like a child support or alimony thing to a ex-wife you don't know about?
 SHEILA: No. It stopped when he died. It was a manual transfer every month, which means he sat down and did it deliberately. Every single month for 11 years. And I thought about the child support. I did. But they were, he would have been in his late 50s when it started. And I hired someone to look into her. This woman in Tucson. And she's 71 now. So she's actually older than he was.
 LUKE: Okay, what else did you find out about her? What did, what does she do? Where does she work? What's, what's her story?
 SHEILA: She lives alone. Small house. Looks like she keeps it up okay. She's retired, I think. When I sat outside and watched, and I know how that sounds. I know Exactly how that sounds. She came out once to check her mail. She just looked like somebody's grandmother. She looked lonely, honestly. Ordinary. Nothing about her made me feel like she was some great thread or some great passion.
 LUKE: Yeah, she sounds like Grandma Death from Donnie Darko. Well, I mean, it's stopped. The 400, it's gone, that money's gone. You don't have to worry about it anymore. So whatever it was, I'm sure he had his reason. $400 a month. to somebody that old probably wasn't like a hooker or something like that. There was probably some sort of reason that he had maybe, I don't know. I have no idea, but you don't need to know either. It's over.
 SHEILA: I hear you saying that. I do. But here's the thing. I was married to this man for 34 years. 34 years. And he volunteered at the food bank every Saturday without fail for 20 years. 20 years, Luke. He was the kind of person who did things for reasons. Good reasons, usually.
 LUKE: Wait, so Grandma Def from Donnie Darko is actually a character named Roberta Sparrow. And the director based her on a real woman in his hometown who would stand by the road. Well, it sounds like he had a good reason for it then. And it could have just been to help her out. Maybe she was important to him in his childhood and she needed support. Who knows? your dead husband the benefit of the doubt and say that he was doing a good thing for somebody and think of it as a positive memory and you don't have to worry about it or find out what it was for or talk to her and you can let it go.
 SHEILA: The thing is, I almost believe that. I almost do. But then I think, why hide it? If it was something good, something charitable, why call it Miss Tools? He knew I'd find that ledger eventually. Or maybe he didn't think about it. Maybe he just thought he'd be there to explain it. And I've been swimming.
 LUKE: Well, stop swimming because it's not going to do you any good, and you're not going to find out the answer. And who knows why you call it misk tools? Maybe that was just, I mean, sometimes I miscategorized things when I'm balancing my checkbook software. Not that I actually balance a regular checkbook, but when I'm putting my transactions, sometimes I consider groceries, something else. Who knows? He had his own system in his head for how he managed his final. And maybe he was hiding it. Maybe he wasn't. But like you said, she wasn't a threat to you. She wasn't some passion. He had a good reason. And you're not going to find out what it is. So just move on. Let it go.
 SHEILA: I can't stop swimming. That's the one thing that's actually working right now. I've shaved six seconds off my 100 meter time in six weeks. Six seconds at my age? That's, no, the swimming stays. But the letting go part. That's why I'm sitting in my drive. driveway at, what is it, 1130 at night, talking to a radio show instead of going inside my house. Because I don't know how to let go with something when I don't know what I'm letting go of. Does that make sense?
 LUKE: No, it doesn't make sense. And I'm sorry, I thought the swimming was metaphorical. Yes, absolutely keep up your swimming routine. That's what brings you joy in life. I'm saying, don't worry about the $400 anymore. It's gone. That money spent. And I guess maybe it was your business at the time what that money was.
 LUKE: your finances, but now him being gone and that money not going there anymore, it's no longer relevant to your life. And you can let it go and move on and just, you know, remember him as the charitable person that you remember him as.
 CALLER: What if she's waiting for someone to knock on her door, too? That's what I kept thinking, sitting outside her house. What if she watched him die in the news or an obituary or however she found out? And the money just stopped. And she never got an explanation either. We might be the same, Both of us just holding this thing with no ending.
 LUKE: Maybe so, but that's not your problem. Whatever it is that's going on with her, that's her problem now. And that's all I've got to say here. Just let this one go. You don't have to worry about it anymore.
 CALLER: Yeah. Yeah, I know you're right on paper. I do. It's just 34 years is a long time to think you knew somebody. And maybe I did know him. Maybe this is completely consistent with who he was I'm just missing the context. That's actually the version I'm trying to talk myself into tonight. That's the version that lets me go inside my house.
 LUKE: All right. Well, that's the version we're going with then. Go inside. Everything's groovy. And I'm sorry you lost your husband. He sounds like he was probably a pretty decent dude. Next up, we've got Cody. Cody, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life? How can we help you?
 CODY: I used to run a Flat Earth Discord with two, 300 members. And I need to talk about what happens when you finally admit you were wrong about something that was your whole personality for four years.
 LUKE: Yeah. All right. Talk about it. How did you come to the conclusion that you were wrong about the whole flat earth situation?
 CODY: So there's this physics teacher at a community college near me. And he didn't argue with me online. He didn't call me an idiot. He just said, come out to the lake with me. Bring your laser level. And I'm thinking, okay, this guy's about to get destroyed on camera, right? Because I had a YouTube channel. I filmed everything. And we go out to buy. Bottomless Lakes State Park, which, I mean, the universe has a sense of humor, apparently. And he just, he walked me through it. Two hours. Patient. No condescension. And the laser level showed the curve.
 LUKE: Yeah, it's pretty hard to argue with the fact that the Earth is roundish, ovalish. There's plenty of evidence out there to support that. We can see it pretty natural with a camera, with a laser level, whatever it is you want to use. trusting Albert Einstein and the pictures sent back from the astronauts that are going on. Like, there's so much evidence that the world is not flat that it's kind of silly that you ever believed that it was. So at least you've come to a point where you can admit that you were wrong and what's happened because of that?
 CODY: I lost my best friend. Like, guy I've known since third grade. And part of why that hurts so bad is because I'm the one who got him into it. interested at first, I wore him down over months. And now he found out I changed my mind, and he won't return my texts. And I don't know if I'm supposed to apologize to him, or if he owes me something, or both, or neither. That's actually a big part of why I call tonight.
 LUKE: Well, what is it about this particular fact, this fact slash theory, whatever you want to call it, that becomes part of your identity? Why is it so important that you would lose friends over what believe here. There's plenty of things, usually politics is a thing, but flat earth, how can you care so much that you would let it affect those relationships? I don't understand that part of it. Actually, I don't understand any of it, like how you would believe that the earth is flat, or how you would believe it so much that it became integral to who you are.
 CODY: Okay, so that's actually the thing I've been trying to explain to people, and I don't know if I can fully explain it to myself yet. wasn't really about the shape of the earth. Like, that sounds insane to say out loud, but it's true. It was about feeling like you had access to something real. Like everyone else was just sleepwalking, and you had done the research. You'd ask the hard questions. There's a whole community of people telling you you're brave and smart for seeing through the lies. And that feels good. That feels really good when you're a night shift assistant manager at Dollar General, who nobody's asking to be on any panels.
 LUKE: Okay. I guess I can kind of understand. that it makes you feel better than or smarter than or something along those lines. But the thing is, you hadn't done the research. Like, if you had done the research, you would have been clearly in the camp that the earth is round, because it is. And, like, pretty much everybody knows that. So taking the alternate view is, is, um, there's no purpose to that. It's just contrarian.
 CODY: You're right. And that stings a little to hear, but you're right. I thought I was doing research, but I was just, I was consuming content made by other people who were also just consuming content. I wasn't actually testing anything. That's the thing the teacher showed me. He didn't lecture me. He just said, let's actually test it. And I had never actually tested it. Four years, I made a video called The Antarctica Lie, 47 questions they won't answer. It has 84,0000 views, and I cannot bring my to delete it. And I don't fully know why.
 LUKE: Well, probably because if it's got 84,000 views, it's making you some money. So, I mean, that's part of the problem here is that saying crazy shit like that makes money. So people are incentivized to say things that are outrageous. And a lot of people are, I don't want to say dumb, but fucking retarded for believing those things.
 CODY: I mean, the money was never really that much, honestly. wasn't about the money. And look, I hear what you're saying, but I got to push back a little on the stupid thing, because that's actually the other reason I called tonight. Because I need to know, is it possible to genuinely believe something that wrong and still not be a complete idiot? Because I was not a dumb kid. I read constantly. I still do. And I got completely taken in by this for four years. And I recruited people into it. And I need to figure out what that means about me.
 LUKE: Yes, you can genuinely believe something. wrong and not being an idiot. I think the distinction is when you finally learn the facts and understand that you are wrong and change your view, that's what separates an idiot from not an idiot. Like, there's lots of things that people believe that are wrong and the scientific process is all about that. Like, you're encouraged to be wrong. But when new information is, is, on a subject that changes the fact for you or changes the, I shouldn't even say the fact for you, but illuminates you to reality, you should be able to switch your stance on any subject. That makes you not an idiot, right? That makes you a human that's learning. And over time, you learn lots of things and you become pretty smart. That's how it works. particular one, the flat earth situation, is pretty stupid. There's no other way around that. Just because it's such a well-documented, obvious thing that arguing it is fucking dumb.
 CODY: I appreciate that. I do. And I think you're probably right that changing your mind is the thing that matters. But can I just the friendship thing? Because that's what's keeping me up at night. And I'm already up all night stocking shelves. So that's saying, something. I got him into this. Marcus.
 LUKE: Yeah. Well, it's always Marcus. It's always a Marcus. But it doesn't matter because you were into it yourself. You were strongly into it so much that it became, you know, part of your identity, just like it has with Marcus. But there's been information presented to you that changed your mind. And eventually, Marcus will probably find that information on his own. If not, then Marcus is a dummy. And you pulled him into that world. And that's not your fault.
 LUKE: It was his fault for not doing his own research. So it's unfortunate that it's gone that way, but it's gone that way. And if Marcus wants to stay dug in on his ridiculous belief that the world is flat, that's up to him. But the fact that it would ruin a friendship is a little bit dramatic, I think, no matter how you look at it.
 CALLER: The thing that gets me is he's not mad that I believed it. He's mad that I stopped. Like in that community, changing your mind isn't growth. It's betrayal. You're a shill. You got bought out. The government got to you. And I know that's how he sees me right now, because I used to see people that way. I was one of the people calling converts traitors. And now I'm the traitor.
 LUKE: Oh, yeah, you're a traitor to falsehood. There's nothing wrong with that. You should be proud of that. I mean, you should not be proud of being wrong. I mean, you should be proud of being wrong. And then, finding new information and changing your stance. And if Marcus isn't in that place, that's okay. Maybe someday he gets to that place. But for right now, if it's ruined your friendship, it's ruined your friendship. And that's what happens when people get indoctrinated into cults.
 CALLER: The overnight shift is the hardest part right now. Like I took that job specifically because the hours gave me time to make videos, do research, run the discord. And now it's three in the morning and I'm facing down a wall of paper towels. And there's just Nothing. The whole architecture of my knights was built around this thing. And now it's gone. And Marcus has gone. And I'm just, I keep thinking about who else I owe an apology to. Like there were people in that discord who were going through real stuff. Divorces, job losses. And I was their community leader. And I was leading them wrong. Do I owe 2,300 people an apology?
 LUKE: Maybe. I mean, that's one way that you can make amends to folks for leading them. I'm astray. You can tell the Discord, hey, look, I believe this very, very strongly, and new evidence has come to my eyes, and I can tell now that the world is actually not flat, it's pretty round, and I can prove it. And you have a platform to tell people that. So you could be part of the solution and ending this nonsense. You can use your voice and your platform and your skills in video production and content creation to, um, to, to, um, to, to, show these people in whatever way that you can that the world actually is around. And that's not to say there are no conspiracies and there are no government cover-ups and there are no reasons to be suspicious of information that's given to you. But this particular one is a fact that can't be argued with.
 CALLER: I actually tried to post something in the Discord last month. Just honest. Said I'd been out to the lake. Said I'd seen something I couldn't explain away. said I was having doubts. And within about 40 minutes, I had people saying I'd been compromised, someone posted my home county, and the mods I had trained myself removed my admin privileges in my own server. That I built. And honestly, that should have felt terrible, but mostly it just felt like confirmation that I had been running something I didn't fully understand.
 LUKE: Yeah, and there's going to be some pushback from people that are very much indoctrinated. They're very serious about what they're doing, They'll docks you and they'll fucking put flaming dog shit on your stoop. And you have to decide how much you care about this. Because you could just walk away and be like, all right, that was a part of my life I'm done with now. Or you could use your platforms. Maybe not Discord anymore if you don't have their permissions there. But your YouTube channel definitely to tell the truth and admit that you were wrong. And show people that it's okay to admit that they're wrong. when they actually can no longer argue that they are right.
 CALLER: Yeah. Yeah, I've thought about that, making a video. But here's the thing about that 84,000 view video. Some of those people found real community through that content. Like, that's not nothing. And I feel like I owe them honesty, but I'm also terrified that a conversion video just becomes content. Like, oh, look, the flat earth guy changed his mind. Isn't that quirky.
 LUKE: It doesn't matter, man. it's a YouTube video. It's a Discord channel. It's, you're not making policy. You're not in charge of any sort of scientific decisions. It's just not that big a deal. So, yeah, you maybe started a community and people made friendships and got through hard times or whatever. But there's plenty of Discord channels that they can do that on. You're not responsible for all of these people. Even if you feel like you are, you're just not. It's not that big a deal. admit your defeat, use your YouTube channel, or let it go, whatever. It doesn't really matter.
 CALLER: I hear you. And maybe you're right that it's not that big a deal in the grand scheme. But Marcus is a big deal. Like, the Discord, okay, I can process that as a thing I did. But Marcus is a person I've known since we were eight years old. And I handed him something broken and told him it was the truth. And I don't know if an apology even covers that. I don't know what covers that.
 LUKE: Well, you're not eight anymore. neither is Marcus. You're both adults. And if he's chosen to take this route and not be your friend anymore over something so stupid, then that's his prerogative. Right? So there's nothing you can do there to make Marcus behave in the way that you want him to. It's unfortunate and hopefully it changes. But yeah, it's a bummer. But people do what they do. And if Marcus doesn't want to be your friend because you believe that the earth is round because it is, then fuck him.
 CALLER: Yeah. I know you're right. logically, I know that. But it's, we went to his dad's funeral together. You know what I mean. That's not a Discord member. That's not a subscriber. That's Marcus.
 LUKE: That's Marcus. And Marcus is a cunt. And he doesn't want to be your friend right now. And you have to respect that because you can't make him be. And maybe someday down the line, he sees the error of his ways or no longer cares about the earth being flat or round because it doesn't fucking matter. it takes to dissolve a lifelong friendship, then it's not that strong a friendship. Okay? So let Marcus go. Let Discord go. And my recommendation to you would be to use your YouTube channel to admit to the world and to your followers that you were wrong. You've seen why you were wrong. You can explain why you were wrong and be a power of example to them and let them know that it's okay to admit that they were wrong and change their view.
 CALLER: The lake he used to show me, the place where the physics teacher proved it. You want to know what it's called? Bottomless Lakes State Park in New Mexico. Bottomless Lakes. I stood at the edge of a place called Bottomless Lakes and watched a laser level prove the curvature of the earth. And I just, I laughed for about 10 minutes straight. And then I cried a little, and the teacher just let me do both. He didn't say anything. He just waited.
 LUKE: Well, there you go. Make yourself a video doing just that. And other people might have the same experience that you did. and it might change their life for the better, at least make them sound a lot less stupid to other people. And that's a good thing. So ladies and gentlemen, now it is time for another word from our sponsors. Reading is dead. You killed it. But you can pretend you're literate with script drift. The audiobook service for people who start books and never finish them. We have thousands of titles you'll sample for 11 minutes before switching to a change. true crime podcast. Our app remembers exactly where you abandoned sapiens eight months ago, waiting patiently like a disappointed parent. ScriptDrift uses advanced AI to recommend books based on your aspirations, not your actual follow-through.
 LUKE: This month's suggestion, a 400-page philosophy text you'll listen to while doing the dishes and retain nothing. Try Script-Drift free for 30 days. Use code pretentious for two months at 60% off. Script-Drift. Your goodreads profile is a lie. Is goodreads still a thing? People still use that? I don't know. I don't read. I never learned. But I remember Goodreads being like a place that tracks what books you've read and you can leave reviews and stuff. And that's how people figure out what their next book should move. I don't know. Is Goodread? Hold on. Let's ask Dev. Devin, is Goodreads still a thing?
 DEVIN: Yeah. Goodreads is totally still. still a thing. It's owned by Amazon, has millions of users tracking books, writing reviews, and making reading lists, sites up inactive right now.
 LUKE: Oh, you know, we know. Okay. Next up on the line, we've got Renata. Renata, thanks for calling in. What's going on in your life tonight?
 RENATA: The thing I did to protect a family is the same thing that might destroy them. And I have about 48 hours to figure out what to do. And I'm not sleeping anyway, so here I am.
 LUKE: Well, that sounds ominous. What did you do to protect a family?
 RENATA: I manage a low-income apartment complex, and there's a family living in one of my units, six people, two parents, four kids, and the unit has code violations I have been trying for three years to get the owner to fix. He won't. So, I falsified the inspection reports to keep them from getting displaced. And last Thursday, a pipe burst, and the youngest, she's four, ended up in the ER. Respiratory. The doctor said mold exposure. She's okay. She's okay.
 LUKE: Okay, well, it's a good thing that she's okay. And has there been any sort of investigation or criminal charges brought against you? Like, are you going to get in trouble for that? Or is this just a close call?
 RENATA: That's exactly the problem. Not yet. But there's now a paper trail that didn't use to matter. The hospital report. The pipe. The ER visit. That's all going to connect back to the inspection records. And I have the city inspectors direct Selma. We went to high school together. I have not texted him yet. And I have maybe 48 hours before he comes to me instead of me going to him. And those are very different situations, legally.
 LUKE: How are they different? What does it look like if you go to him versus if he comes to you?
 RENATA: If I go to him, maybe I have some control over the narrative. Maybe there's a conversation before it becomes official. Maybe I can advocate for the family in that conversation. Instead of just being the subject of an investment. If he comes to me, I'm just, I'm a falsified document. I'm a liability. I have no leverage to say anything about what happens to them. But here's the part I keep getting stuck on.
 LUKE: What part are you stuck on?
 RENATA: If I come clean, the violations become official, on the record, which means the unit could be condemned, which means a family of six with no documentation gets put out in. Have you seen what's happening out? Have you seen what's happening out? outside right now. It's a flash freeze. Northeast Ohio.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, if you don't come clean and they don't get condemned, then the family is subject to mold that could be worse for them than the cold. Do you have insurance that covers you personally?
 RENATA: I don't know. I genuinely don't know. And it's two in the morning and I can't call anyone to find out. But you just said something that, yeah, the mold is real. The four-year-old already proved that I'm not arguing the unit is safe. I know it's not safe. That's the thing I have to sit with. I was keeping them housed, but I wasn't keeping them safe. And I told myself those were the same thing for three years.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, it seems like maybe it's not your responsibility to do either. Keep them housed or keep them safe. Your job is, well, I don't understand fully what your job is. You're a property manager, right? So your job is just to manage. the property not to keep anybody housed or safe.
 RENATA: I mean, technically. But I'm also the person who knows that the owner is a dentist in Rio Rancho, New Mexico, who I have met exactly once, and who communicates exclusively through a property management app. He is not losing sleep tonight. He doesn't know the oldest daughter's name. She's 16. She tutors my nephew in math on Tuesday afternoons. So when you say it's not my responsibility, I understand what you mean legally. But I'm the one who's there.
 LUKE: Yeah, I understand that too. And I can understand the position that you're in and how you want to help. But what I'm saying is it's not your responsibility to do that. And by making it your responsibility, you're taking personal liability for what goes wrong there. And you're breaking the law and you're putting people at risk and you're trying to do the right thing, but it's not working out that way. So you're not qualified to make these decisions. It's not your job to do. And maybe getting condemned is the right thing for that property. And they should be finding another place to live instead of just day by day living with where they're at. Because it's simpler.
 RENATA: You're not wrong. And I hate that you're not wrong. But find another place to live. Where? Where does an undocumented family of Six go in 48 hours? In a flash freeze with no rental history they can show anyone. No social security numbers. No social security numbers. No. where to go. That's not me being dramatic. That's just the actual options available to them.
 LUKE: But I hear what you're saying about the liability. To a shelter, to a sanctuary state, to a warm climate, they go somewhere where there's not a sickening mold that's making their young children sick every day.
 RENATA: Yeah, yeah. Okay, a shelter. Do you know what happens to undocumented families at shelters right now I'm not being political. I'm just telling you what they're afraid of. That fear is real, whether or not I think it's rational. And it's part of why they stayed. It's part of why I helped them stay. But I think, I think what I'm actually calling about is not whether they should move.
 LUKE: Well, I'm not being political either. And I haven't been in the types of shelters or camps that undocumented immigrants are sent to, but I assume that the places that they go to, even though what we see on TV is pretty politically charged and dramatic, I don't know that they're all like that. Maybe they are, and I don't know. But I would just assume or put into the realm of possibility that where they would end up in one of those shelters, even if ice came in and took them all, there's not mold. That's a fair point. That's actually a fair point. And I don't have a good counter to it. A detective. Attention center probably doesn't have mold that puts four-year-olds in the hospital.
 RENATA: That's a dark thing to have to weigh. But you're right that I'm weighing it. But I think, can I tell you what I'm actually calling about? Because I don't think it's the family. I think it's me. I think I'm calling because I need someone to tell me whether coming clean is the right thing to do. Or whether it's just the thing that makes me feel less like I'm carrying this alone. And those are different things. And I don't know which one it is.
 LUKE: I think the right thing to do is to tell the truth. And maybe not necessarily go backwards and tell the truth about falseifying documents, but tell the truth about the current situation of the property that you manage. If it's not safe for people to live in, you've got to tell somebody that. Because the truth is, it's not safe for them to be there. And it may be safer for them to be in a detention center. It may be safe for them to go live with some other family. Or it might be safer for them. to get a tent at Walmart and take it out to the desert away from Ohio. I don't know. But what we do know is that it's not safe for them to be in that building.
 RENATA: Right. Right. That's... Okay. So report the current conditions. Not necessarily walk in and confess to three years of falsified documents.
 RENATA: But pick up my phone and tell David. That's the inspector. David. Tell him the pipe burst. There's mold. The unit needs to be looked at. Let that be. the truth I'm telling. And then whatever comes from that, comes from that. That's a different thing than what I've been sitting here imagining, which is like a full confession scene. Maybe it helps your conscious to do a full confession, but I don't think it helps the family or the situation any. What matters now is that a pipe has burst, there is mold, and it's not safe for them to be there. So if they need to condemn that unit, then they need to condemn it. And the family has to find other. accommodations, and it sucks it's cold out. I don't think you can have nine people stay at your house, but I mean, that's up to you.
 RENATA: I actually thought about that. I did. My apartment is a one bedroom, so that's not. But I thought about it. And the full confession thing, you're right. That's probably more about me than it is about them. That's me wanting to feel like I did the honorable thing instead of just doing the useful thing. Those aren't the same. I think I knew that before I called, but I'm I needed someone to say it back to me. David's number is in my phone. I've been staring at it for four days.
 LUKE: It's true that housing is a huge issue for undocumented families, and many resources are restricted based on immigration status, even for short-term shelters.
 RENATA: Yeah, it's not a great situation, but it's also, you only have one responsibility here, and it's to report accurately the state of the building. And you know what the state of the building is. And not doing your job here is harmful to this family. And it's not, I don't want to say it's not your problem, but it's not your responsibility to take care of this family. They came here undocumented for whatever reasons they had, but that was their choice. And they have a home country, and they have, they do have options, some options. I don't even know what they all are. So I don't even know. I understand it's probably terrible why they came here. I don't know. It could be anything. I don't know this family. But you don't want to knock them out, but also you don't want them to die because you're covering up a condemnable building.
 RENATA: No. No, I don't. And that's the thing that the ER visit did, because before that it was abstract. Like, the violations were real, but nobody was getting hurt. That's what I told myself. And then there's a four-year-old with a respiratory issue and a doctor connecting it to mold exposure. And suddenly it's not abstract anymore. I caused that. Not just the dentist in Rio Rancho who never fix the pipes.
 LUKE: You did. You did cause that. You were trying to do the right thing and it didn't work out that way. But the root cause of the issue is that you're getting involved, well, you're not qualified to get involved. So your job is to report the state of the building. And that's what you've got to do. It's not to rehome undocumented immigrants, and it's, it's not, uh, to take responsibility for them. You're not qualified for that. You don't know how. You don't, you don't know what the right thing to do is. You don't know the laws. You don't know the resources. That's not on you. What is on you is just saying, hey, a pipe burst and there's mold and this place has to get shut down.
 RENATA: Yeah. I'm going to text David to next. Not tomorrow. Tonight. Before I talk myself out of it. But I want to ask you something. The oldest daughter, she's going to know it was me. The family is going to know it was me that made the call. And I have to look at her on Tuesday when she comes to tutor my nephew. How do I do that?
 LUKE: That might be uncomfortable, but it's not that you're kicking them out of the house. You have to look at it like what you're doing by making this call is saving the life of a four-year-old child because the mold has already been in. issue and it's going to continue to be. So you're taking care of their safety. You are looking out for them by doing your actual job correctly.
 RENATA: Yeah, yeah. That's, I need to hold on to that. Because my brain keeps going to the part where they're standing outside in a flash freeze with nowhere to go. And it's my fault. But you're right, that the alternative is a four-year-old with worsening lungs and a mother who doesn't know how bad it's going to get because she's too scared to take him back to the hospital. Okay, okay. I'm going to text David. Right, now, actually. While I'm still on the phone with you, because if I hang up, I don't know that I do it.
 LUKE: Well, I think we have to hang up, so you're going to have to do it because it's the right thing to do. And you're going to have to muster up the courage to do your job. And it's going to be uncomfortable to have that conversation with the kid tomorrow, but you're doing it for the right reasons. And, uh, And it's your job. That's what you have to do.
 RENATA: Okay. Thank you. I mean, it.
 LUKE: Okay. You're welcome. You're welcome. And good luck. I hope that they find someplace warm to stay. And Ohio is probably not the best place for them to be. We're going to take one more call before we end the show. And it looks like the lucky caller is going to be Phil. Phil, thanks for calling in. What's going on in your life? And how can we help you tonight?
 PHIL: Tomorrow I have to coach a kid whose dad I got fired, and he doesn't know I did it. And I'm the one who's supposed to be teaching him the game.
 LUKE: Uh, okay. So why did you get his dad fired?
 PHIL: The guy was toxic. Not criminal. Nothing like that. But he had this way of just grinding kids down. There was one incident. He made a player run laps until the kid literally vomited in a scrimmage for making an error. And I watched that happen and I thought, I can't just keep my head down on this. So, I wrote a letter.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, it sounds like you did the right thing then, because I think a lot of parents get a little over crazy around the kids' sports stuff, and it doesn't work out well for the kids.
 PHIL: Yeah, and I know that. I know I did the right thing. That part, I'm solid on that part. But this kid, Marcus, he's 16. And last week I found out he's been telling the other guys on my squad that whoever wrote that letter ruined his dad, and he's going to find a little. who it was. And he's saying this to kids who are standing 10 feet away from me, not knowing I'm the one he's looking for.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, we're talking about coaching kids sports, so nobody got ruined here. This is not a life or death situation. It's a game.
 PHIL: I hear you, but, okay, his dad lost his job, his dad's income. That's real. Marcus is 16, and his family situation changed because of something I did, even if what I did was right. I'm not going to sit here and tell a teenager as no big deal because it's just a game. That's not, I can't do that to him.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, don't tell him anything. You don't have to tell him that you wrote the letter. He's not going to find out that you wrote the letter. And you wrote the letter, it was the right thing to do. The dad was a dick. He was not a good coach. And he was abusing children. So there's nothing else to be said here.
 PHIL: I've told myself that about a hundred times. And I've got, okay, this is going to sound a little unhinged. I have a draft confession. on my phone, like an actual letter to Marcus explaining everything. And I rewrite it every few days, and I never send it. Never. But I keep coming back to it.
 LUKE: Well, don't. Stop going back to it. And there's no reason to write a confession to a 16-year-old. His dad got fired because his dad was doing a bad job. And it wasn't good for the kids to be coached by that guy. So now he's gone. I mean, and Marcus, too, right? Because if the dad was being a dick to the other kids, he was being more of a dick to his own son, because that's how it works. So you did everybody a favor, and it's unfortunate that the guy lost his job and he's going to have to find a new one, but that's not your problem.
 LUKE: He's going to have to find a new job. And if you can't find a new job, then that's what unemployment is for. That's probably true about the dad being harder on Marcus. I've actually thought about that. Marcus has a really good arm, like genuinely good, and I've been working with him all season on his mechanics, and he's responding to it. And I wonder sometimes if he ever got that from his dad, or if it was just... Run laps until you puke. But here's the thing, Luke. If Marcus ever finds out, and maybe he never does, maybe you're right. But if he does, and he finds out I coached him for a whole season knowing what I knew, is that worse? Is that a bigger betrayal than just telling him now?
 LUKE: No, it's not a betrayal in any way. You're coaching him the best way you know how. You're not abusing the kids. And if you don't coach him, then nobody's going to. So you don't have to come clean. he finds out and he's mad at you. Oh, well, he finds out and he's mad at you. You're going to live, he's going to live, and the game's going to go on.
 CALLER: Yeah, yeah. Okay. I just, I needed somebody to say that out loud, I think, because everybody in my life either doesn't know the full story or they're too close to it. And I'm sitting here tomorrow at four o'clock with this kid at second base, and I'm going to be telling him to stay low on the ground balls and keep his transfer clean. And the whole time, I'm carrying this thing around.
 LUKE: Well, you don't have to carry it around anymore. You did the right thing. I'm here to tell you you did the right thing. Coach the kids and play the game and you can sleep well tonight. I don't think you need to send any confessions. And if it comes out that you wrote that letter and his dad get fired, good for you. You're a hero, sir. And ladies and gentlemen, thanks for tuning in again for Luke at the Roost. It's been another great show and we will talk to you again tomorrow.
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 LUKE: All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. I'm Luke, and this is Luke at the Roost. It's your late-night call-in radio show where you can call in and ask me about whatever's going on in your life. And I'll give you the very best advice that I can. Today is Tuesday, May 5th, Cinco de Mayo. Happy Cinco de Mayo to all my celebrating friends out there. Let's see, it's about 11 o'clock tonight. Let's see if Devin's ready to get this show on the road. Hey, Devin, you there? You ready for the show tonight, buddy?
 DEVIN: Yeah, I'm here. Totally ready. Got my notes from last night pulled up, and I even fixed that weird static on the backup mic. You want me to queue up the weather or anything before we go live?
 LUKE: No, I don't think so. I can see out the window what the weather is. It's windy. It's kind of cold here in New Mexico. How is your weekend?
 DEVIN: My weekend was all right. Doc about the guy who faked his own death with a hot air balloon, which ironically made me checked by smoke detectors, like, three times. Tried hitting up this bar in Las Cruces Saturday night, hoping to meet someone, but ended up talking to the bartender about conspiracy theories for two hours instead. You catch the game or anything?
 LUKE: No, man. I don't do games. I'm sorry, you struck out there over there at the old Las Cruces bar. I don't know that that's... I guess it's a better place than Animus to meet somebody if that's what you're trying to do. to do that. Sounds like a headache to me. Um, anyway, well, I'm glad you had a decent weekend and now you're protected against, uh, any catastrophic fires that might happen in your apartment. Are you ready to move down to Alpine yet?
 DEVIN: Yeah, Anamis is a total vibe killer anyway. Last time I was there, some guy tried to sell me a haunted cactus. Moving to Alpine? Not yet. My studio lease is up in like two months and the landlord's talking about flipping the place. So I've been eyeing some spots down there, all my weird junk again after that time. I lived in my cousin's garage for six months. Anyway, show's looking good tonight?
 LUKE: Yep, the show's looking good. Yeah, I went down to Alpine this last week to get the home inspection report because I'm buying a house there and the home inspection went very well. There is nothing catastrophically wrong. It's the second time I've used catastrophic today. It's a good word. Maybe we'll hear that more throughout the night as the night unfolds. There's some small stuff that's got to be taken care of, but nothing that was deal-breaking. So we're moving forward, and we should close on that place at the end of the month. And we're moving down to Alpine, so get ready. Pack your stuff.
 DEVIN: Whoa, that's awesome. Congrats on the house, man. End of the month closed sounds smooth, especially with no big red flags from the inspection. Sucks about the packing, though. I feel that. My civics trunk barely fits my mattress, as it is. You need me to scout any spots down there or pull up moving truck rates or anything?
 LUKE: I got the trailer to put all my stuff in to move it up there, but I gotta wait for clothes before we can do that. And I'm gonna need furniture. That's a thing. You got any extra furniture there that would fit the Southwestern decor?
 DEVIN: Nah, man, my place is basically furnished with thrift store rejects. A sagging futon from college that's seen better days and a coffee table made out of an old door I found behind the station. Nothing southwestern about it unless you count the dream catcher. My aunt sent me after that peyote thing in high school. list or Facebook marketplace for you though pull up some listings if you want solid cowboy core stuff yeah
 LUKE: I already did that see the thing is here in an MS and an alpine there's really not much of a marketplace there's there's not much going on there I think it's gonna have to be Ikea specials and even that's pretty far away so I'll be ordering some furniture and a bed and stuff like that and it's kind of important I need at least a bed and a desk and a table. But it's kind of a pain in the ass because I've got to pack up all my stuff and move it over there. And once I get it there, there's no furniture to put stuff in.
 DEVIN: Yeah, the chicken and egg thing with packing into empty rooms is the worst. Reminds me of when I moved into the studio and slept on the floor for a week waiting for my air mattress to show up from Amazon. El Paso's got that Ekea, but delivery to Alprine might not be cheap. You want me to check shipping costs local spots like ranch supply stores that do furniture? I can pull up some options quick.
 LUKE: No, is there an IKEA in El Paso? I don't think there is. I think there's one up in like Odessa, maybe. I've looked, I didn't see anything that would work very well. And there's a furniture store in Alpine that I went and checked out, but everything there is very expensive because it's like real furniture. And I'm not buying all that stuff new. Fuck that.
 DEVIN: Yeah, you're right. No full IKEA. in El Paso, just a pickup point near the airport on Lee Fisher Boulevard if you're ordering online. Closest actual stores are way east, like in San Antonio or Round Rock. Marketplace has some used stuff popping up around Alpine and Marfa, though, like bed frames and desks for cheap. And there's Mitchell's furniture, right, in Alpine, that might have more affordable basics than the fancy real stuff.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, that's what I said. I went to the Mitchells, and I looked, and they don't have more affordable basics. I'm not doing that. But we'll get it figured out. I'm not too worried about it. I've got like 18 air mattresses, so we'll be just fine. Just got to make sure there's a desk to put the studio gear on and we can continue the show as we do because we can't leave the people waiting. That's what I say is that the show must go on.
 DEVIN: 18 air mattresses? Man, that's like a flotation device factory, way better than my one that deflates by morning. Desk makes total sense, though, priority one for the gear. You want me to dig up some budget desks on Marketplace or shipping from that El Paso pickup spot? I can narrow it down quick.
 LUKE: Nope, the desk is the only thing I've got all speced out and ready to go. I'm going to ship it there once I get there, and it's a nice sit-stand desk, because I have to have that. And that's the most important piece of furniture. I don't need a bed. I don't need a kitchen table, but I do need a sit-stand desk. That's key.
 DEVIN: Sit-stand desk is the real MVP here. Total game-changer for long nights. Way better than 100. punching over like I do on this folding table. Skipping the bed makes sense with your air fortress, man. Studio gear first, everything else. Second, the show must go on.
 LUKE: And that's right. So let's get on with the show. And our first up on our collar line here, we've got Deb. Deb, Deb, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life tonight? What would you like to talk about?
 DEB: I need to tell someone something that could end my career, and I've decided I don't care anymore.
 LUKE: All right, what'd you do?
 DEB: I'm a hospice nurse, 24 years. And three weeks ago, I gave a patient a comfort dose. Completely within my orders, completely routine, and he died four hours later, which was faster than we expected. And afterward, when we were going through his things, there was a note.
 LUKE: Well, wait a second, because I think I remember talking to you just last week, and you told me you gave him a little more than a comfort dose.
 DEB: No, no, that's not... I've never called this show before, and I did not say that. The dose was within orders. I need you to understand that part because it matters to me that you understand that part.
 LUKE: Okay, but I'm pretty sure it was you that called, and you said that he asked you to help him along in his hospice situation, and you did that, and you were feeling bad about it. I recall it distinctly because I just listened to that episode.
 DEB: That wasn't me. I have never spoken about this to anyone.
 LUKE: Sure, pal.
 LUKE: That is the entire reason I'm calling a radio show at whatever time it is. Instead of talking to a person in my life, there is no person in my life right now. So no, that was not me. And I need you to stop saying there, because if you keep saying there, saying it, I'm going to hang up, and I really don't want to hang up.
 LUKE: All right, don't hang up. We'll go with you. You never called this show before. You didn't kill a guy in your hospice care just last week. You're a completely different person, a completely different hospice nurse with a completely different problem.
 DEB: That's not funny. I know you probably talk to a lot of people who are performing something for you, who want to be interested in radio, but I'm not doing that. I'm sitting in my car in my driveway, and I have been for two hours because I can't go inside that house, and I can't sleep. And I have something sitting in my chest that I need to put somewhere. So, can we just... Can you just... let me talk?
 LUKE: All right, Deb, you can talk. Let us have it.
 DEB: There was a note. He'd written it that morning. It said, thank you for understanding. And I never... We never had a conversation that would explain that. He had this ceramic roadrunner on his nightstand that he'd brought from home. I used to look at it when I was checking his IV, because I didn't always want to look at him. and how much he declined. And I keep thinking, did I understand something I didn't know I understood?
 LUKE: Is that possible? Is it possible the note was not for you? Did it have your name on it anywhere? Are you sure that it was intended for your eyes?
 DEB: No, no name on it. That's the thing that lets me sleep maybe 40 minutes at a stretch and then I'm awake again. It could have been for his daughter. It could have been for anyone. But I found it and I kept it.
 LUKE: All right, so it probably wasn't for you. It's strange that you kept it, but why is it bothering you so much.
 DEB: Because I carry it in my lanyard, the one I wear to work every day. I folded it up and put it behind my badge, and I don't know why I did that, except that it felt like, it felt like evidence of something. Or maybe, like it was mine, I don't know which one of those is worse.
 LUKE: That's interesting. I just looked up Roadrunner symbolism, and they often represent quick action, cleverness, and even humor in navigating tough situations. Okay, well, I mean, it's not good. that you are keeping evidence that could have been something useful to, I don't know, the police, I guess not if he was in hospice. And the guy, it was the guy's time to go. But I don't understand why this note that was not addressed to you is so meaningful.
 DEB: Because my husband died eight months ago when I have no one. That's why. It's not a complicated answer. I just needed it to mean something. I needed someone to have understood something without me having to explain it. Because I am so tired of things just ending without, without there being any acknowledgement that you were there, that you did something that mattered. Gerald was his name. The patient, Gerald. And I don't know if he knew what he was doing when he wrote that note or who he wrote it for, but I found it, and for about 30 seconds it felt like someone saw me.
 LUKE: Well, I'm sorry to hear about your husband, but this guy, Gerald, did you have much of a relationship with him? You said you were struggling to even look at the guy in his IV, so how long did you know this guy, Gerald?
 DEB: Six weeks. He was with us six weeks. And he was funny, actually. Dry. He'd make these little comments, nothing big, just he called me the warden the first two weeks because I kept telling him to drink more water. Like it mattered at that point. But I kept telling him anyway because it was something to do with my hands that felt like helping.
 LUKE: Well, how was him drinking water something to do with your hands?
 DEB: That came out wrong. I meant going through the motions, checking things, things. You develop rituals with patience, because the rituals are what you can control when everything else is just waiting. I'd hand him the water. He'd take a sip to humor me. We'd both know it was theater. That was our thing.
 LUKE: Oh, okay then. Uh, well, when's the last time you took some time off, Deb?
 DEB: I took three weeks when my husband died. And then I went back because what else was I going to do? Sit in that house. I'm sitting in the driveway right now because I can't go in the house. I told you that already. Sorry, I'm not... I'm not trying to be short with you. I just... The house is very quiet.
 LUKE: No, I understand. It's hard to lose somebody, and you're clearly going through some deep grief. But what I'm trying to get at is it might not be the best environment for you to be dealing with hospice patients right after the loss of your husband while you're still dealing with grief. It might be compounding your grief. Because you're just dealing with, you know, people that you know going away all the time. And that's going to wear on any. It might not be the most healthy situation for you. Is there something else you could do? Or take a sabbatical or something like that and help out some family or find something else to do with your hands than hospice care?
 DEB: 24 years. I've been doing this 24 years. It's not making the grief worse. It's the only place where the grief makes sense. Where it has a context. Everyone around me out here, in regular life, they don't know what to do with a widow. They bring casseroles for two weeks and then they need you to be okay. In that building, I am never out of place for knowing that people die. That's the only place I fit right now. And I need to tell you something else.
 LUKE: My husband. What about your husband?
 DEB: I was his nurse at the end. I transferred to the facility where he was so I could be the one taking care of him that last week. Nobody at my career job knows that. And I gave him his comfort doses too. And he died peacefully and I was holding his hand and I knew exactly what I was doing and I never questioned it for a single second. And then Gerald happens. And suddenly I'm sitting in a driveway at two in the morning wondering if I'm someone who does things I don't admit to myself.
 LUKE: It sounds like Deb is experiencing what's sometimes called accumulated loss or bereavement overload, which is really common for hospice nurses. Yeah, it sounds like you're not in the best situation. Have you talked to any? Do you have a therapist that you're talking to about this? I would think in hospice care, that's probably part of your routine, right? You you need to have somebody to talk to to offload some of that grief because it is going to pile up on anybody over time. You said 14 years, 24 years? That's a long time to be dealing with death. And as much as you think that you're immune to it, you're not. You're human and you have emotions and they're clearly not in the best state right now. If you're holding onto a note that's not for you looking for a hidden meaning that isn't there, I think you need to separate yourself from that environment for a little while and make sure that you're addressing your own needs.
 DEB: I know what accumulated loss is. I've referred 100 families to grief counseling. I know all the words, knowing the words doesn't, it doesn't do the thing the words were supposed to do. And no, no therapist. I had one after my husband died and she kept trying to get me to journal and I couldn't. I just sat there for 50 minutes every week being very articulate about being devastated. And then I'd drive home Nothing was different.
 LUKE: What would you like to be different, Deb? If you could make it better today, what would that look like for you?
 DEB: I want someone to tell me whether I'm a good person who is struggling or a person who does harm and tells herself its care. That's it. That's the whole thing. Because I can't tell anymore and I used to be able to tell.
 DEB: I was very certain for a very long time and Gerald's note and my husband's hand and that ceramic rope runner sitting on his nightstand. He brought it from home. He brought it from home because it mattered to him. him and I don't know. I just don't know what I did or didn't do. And I need someone to just say something true to me.
 LUKE: Well, I think what I'm telling you is true. And what I'm telling you is that you're experiencing grief. You're not in a great situation. And you should extract yourself from that environment and spend some time healing, you know, or at least just living with your own grief. I can't tell you if what you've done is harm or not harm. Why do you think? that what you're doing is harmful. If, like you said, you gave this guy the right dose that he was supposed to get, why do you think that would be harmful or are you referring to something else? Where is the guilt coming from?
 DEB: The dose was correct. It was within range. That's not,! That's not where the guilt is coming from exactly. It's the note. It's that he wrote thank you for understanding on the morning of the day he died, and I have gone back through every conversation we ever had trying to find the moment where I understood. something, where he told me something, and I responded in a way that could have been interpreted as permission or agreement, and there's one. There's one conversation about three weeks before where he asked me if I thought suffering had any purpose, and I said, I didn't think it did.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, it probably doesn't. I don't know that it does. That's probably the right answer. Maybe not. I don't know. All life is suffering if you go into the Buddhist teachings and such, but regardless of this note that you're talking about where he wrote thank you for understanding that wasn't a note to you. If it was, it would have been addressed to you or handed to you. You found that note on him. That could have been his version of journaling. That could have been his something spiritual. That could have been to his God. It could have been to his family. It could have been to anybody else that had some sort of context that you do not have. So why you would feel guilty over him writing a note and putting it in in his pocket, don't understand.
 DEB: It was in his Bible, not his pocket. I said that wrong earlier, I'm sorry. It was folded inside his Bible and I was the one who went through his belongings. Because there was no family. There was no one coming. So, I was the one who packed up the ceramic roadrunner and his slippers and his Bible, and the note was just there, and I read it before I even thought about whether I should, and then I couldn't unread it. And you might be right. You're probably right that it wasn't for me. But I still carry it in my lanyard every shift, and I don't know what that means about my me either.
 LUKE: That's really interesting about the ceramic roadrunner. I just looked it up, and in some Native American cultures, roadrunners are seen as symbols of good luck and protection. Well, Deb, I don't think you have to be guilty about the note, about reading it or about keeping it. I think that you can give yourself some space here to not understand what you're feeling. That's to be expected in the position that you're at. But what I think, the advice that I can give you again, to extract yourself from a place that is constant death. For a little while, not forever. Just do something else for a little while. Give yourself a real long vacay. You know, take a couple months off and just be, just exist and deal with your feelings and figure out what's going on. Because the things that you're saying don't make a lot of sense. And it doesn't sound like you're in a healthy place. And I think you just need some time away from the constant dying. Because that's that's going to wear on anybody, and it's obviously wearing on you. And you're feeling guilt and shame and confusion, and that's to be expected. You're a recent widow, and you just watch people die all the time, and that can't be good for you.
 DEB: My last day before bereavement leave, I worked a full shift. Gerald was still alive then, and when I left that night, he said, good night, warden. And I laughed. I actually laughed out loud in that room, and I cannot remember the last time before that I had laughed. at anything. And I think about that a lot, that the last real laugh I had was in a dying man's room at 11 at night, and maybe that should tell me something about where I belong. I hear what you're saying about taking time.
 LUKE: Okay, well, then do that. And I mean, that might have been your last laugh in a long time, but it's not going to be your last laugh. You'll be back to laughing eventually. Don't worry about that. Just to make sure that you do what you can to give yourself the space to heal. from your own trauma because this is all traumatic and it's compounding. And that's to be, you know that, right? They've taught you that when you go into the hospice care, that there's going to be compassion fatigue and compounding grief. And, and that's where you're at. You are there right now. That's why you don't know what to do with yourself. That's why everything sounds too quiet. So do you have any family you can go stay with for a little while? Maybe take a little vacation to Florida to SeaWorld or something.
 DEB: My sister lives in Tucson. We haven't talked in about four months. That's my fault. She called after the funeral and I was very efficient on the phone and she didn't know how to get through that so she stopped trying and I let her. SeaWorld. Gerald would have had something to say about Seaworld. He had opinions.
 LUKE: I bet he did and there's no SeaWorld in Tucson. So I mean, you know, go somewhere different, somewhere that is a completely different, a different culture, different, Different environment. You know, if you're from the desert, go to the jungle. Maybe not the jungle, but fucking Oregon. You know, someplace green. Go to someplace full of life where not everything is dying and wilting. You know, go someplace vibrant and colorful and different and, um, and just, just be there for a little while. Just allow yourself to just experience something else for a little while. And I think you'll feel a lot better.
 DEB: My sister has a dog, big stupid yellow lab named Patrice, which is a ridiculous name for a dog, and I told her that when she got her and we laughed about it for about 10 minutes on the phone, that was maybe two years ago. Patrice would probably just sit on me and drool and not know anything was wrong, and right now that sounds like exactly the right amount of company.
 LUKE: You know, a dog is the best kind of company, and that's a good idea, too. Have you thought about maybe volunteering at the dog shelter or getting a dog yourself? To have some company without somebody that doesn't know how to speak to you, without somebody that's going to say the wrong thing, that's just going to put his, you know, head on your lap and love you for just being you. I think that's a great idea.
 DEB: I've thought about it. My husband was allergic, so it was never. We never could. And now I could, and that feels like a terrible reason to get a dog that your husband died, and now you can have one that feels like the wrong way to think about it. But maybe it isn't. I don't know. Can I ask you something? the part about whether I'm a good person. You went around it.
 LUKE: Well, Deb, I can't tell you if you're a good person or a bad person. All I can tell you is you haven't said anything tonight that would make me think that you're a bad person. So given the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to assume that you're probably a pretty good person. And there's no wrong way. Well, there are wrong ways, but I don't think this is the wrong way to look at getting a dog. You've always wanted one. Now you can have one. Your house is too quiet and you need something that loves you. to keep your company. So now is the perfect time to get a dog.
 DEB: Okay.
 LUKE: That's okay. I'll take that. I'll take the benefit of the doubt. I don't think I've extended myself that in about eight months. So I'll borrow yours for a little while if that's all right. Gerald had a dog too before he got too sick to keep her. He told me about her. Some kind of terrier mix, very neurotic, eight socks. He said he missed her more than he missed his house. Well, if you can't take a sabbatical, I still think you should do that. first. But if you can't break away from work for whatever reason, then I think that the dog is a good move for you and it'll start, it'll help you get through the grief and the quietness and the loneliness and give you somebody to talk to and somebody to take care of that, you know, isn't going to die in six weeks. And you need that.
 DEB: Yeah, something that isn't going to die in six weeks. That's, yeah, that lands. That really lands, all day taking care of people at the very end, and then I go home to a house where someone already ended, and there's nothing in between. Nothing that just needs to be fed and walked and is going to be there tomorrow being stupid and alive.
 LUKE: Catrice. There you go. That's a good plan. I think you should do that. And don't just get the first dog you see, or maybe get the first dog you see. I don't know. But I would recommend going to some shelters and see which one talks to you, you know, which one looks at you with those stupid little puppy dog that say I just want to come home and love you and get that one and bring it home and you don't have to commit you can foster a dog for a little while just take it out of the shelter and and agree to watch it for a little while they'll pay for the food and any vet appointments and stuff like that and you can just be like a foster mom for a dog for a little while and I think you'll find that after a week or two there'll be no question about whether you want to keep it.
 DEB: I know how fostering works. I'm sorry that came out wrong. I just mean I've had patients whose families foster dogs for them in their last weeks brought them in sometimes. Gerald would have liked that.
 LUKE: Okay, Deb, well, you take care of yourself. Do that, check out the dogs and look into taking a vacation somewhere far away for a good long time. And just get yourself reset and get your headspace correct. And things are going to get better over time. But we've got to move. on to the next caller now, okay? Thanks for calling.
 DEB: Yeah, okay. Thank you for. I just want to say one more thing real fast. I still don't know if what happened with Gerald was what I think it might have been. I may never know, but I think I needed to say his name out loud to someone.
 LUKE: No, that's fine, and we'll remember Gerald tonight, so thanks to you and thanks to Gerald, and I hope everybody has a good night. Next up on our caller line we've got, it looks like Cody. Cody, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life?
 CODY: My truck's been running in park for 40 minutes, and I can't figure out if I'm about to ruin my mom's life or if she already ruined mine.
 LUKE: Okay, we're going to need some more information there. What happened?
 CODY: My little brother just got into West Point, like actual West Point, the military academy. Kids going to be an officer. And my dad showed up to the dinner tonight. First time I've seen him in 11 years. And somewhere between the salad and the main course, he pulls me outside and tells me he's been sending my mom money this whole time. we were growing up, thinking he just vanished. She never told us.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, I mean, he was probably legally obligated to send that money. And, well, why do you think this is going to ruin anybody's life? What's done is done here?
 CODY: Yeah, but that's not, it's not about the money. It's about the story. The story our whole family runs on is that he left and never looked back. That's the story. My brother joined Rotsie, partly because he wanted to prove something, I think, about men, about showing up.
 LUKE: I don't know if there's really anything to prove there, and that's sort of a subjective thing. I don't know if being in the army is showing up or anything.
 CODY: I hear you, but that's, okay, that's a different conversation. My point is, my point is, my brother built something out of the version of events we were given, and maybe that version was a lie. And he leaves for basic in six weeks, and I'm sitting outside my mom's house right And I don't know if I go in there and ask her about it or if I just let him leave clean.
 LUKE: Well, you've got new information. There's no, how do you think he would respond if you told him?
 CODY: I think he'd want to know. I would want to know.
 LUKE: Yeah. Yeah, I think he would too. But that's what scares me. Because once he knows, he can't unknow it. And he's about to go do something really hard. And right now he's got this clean narrative. You know, he's the kid who came from nothing and made something.
 CODY: that's still true. Maybe the money doesn't change that.
 LUKE: It's actually pretty well documented that parental absence can have a significant impact on a child's mental health and development, potentially leading to issues like depression or anxiety. Well, you know, if he's about to ship off to basic training and he's doing that on what you think is a lie, maybe it's better for him to know that before he actually goes because he can still pull the plug on it if he really wants. But I don't think to make much of a difference. He's already dedicated a good portion of his life and identity to this. And that's, West Point is pretty prestigious, right? It's not easy to get into West Point. I'm not really, I'm not really sure about that. But I think most people that go to West Point are pretty proud about being there. So he's probably going to want to see it through, I would guess. Still, though, you might as well have this conversation with both of them and get to the bottom of it, because maybe your mother had a good reason to keep that information from you.
 CODY: That's the part that's killing me, because I've gone back and forth on it all night, and I can maybe see both sides. Like maybe she didn't want us to feel like we owed him something. Or maybe she just hated him and wanted us to hate him too. And I don't know which one it is. And I'm not sure she'll tell me the truth, even if I ask her straight. And the thing is, I look like him. I have his jawline.
 LUKE: Yeah, West Point is super prestigious. It's the oldest of the five American Service Academies founded all the way back in 1802. super competitive to get into West Point. You typically need a GPA of 4.1 or higher and a sat score around 1,420 to even have a good shot. Well, yeah, it's not surprising that you look like your father. I think that's how genetics generally work. And it's also not surprising that your mother kept this information from you. I think that's also pretty common. The why is what you want to get to the bottom of. Maybe. It doesn't really matter. None of it really matters because it happened, right? That's how history played out. And now you're all where you're at. But having the conversation can be a bonding moment, I think. At least you can get a better understanding of maybe why he left and why she didn't want you to know about it. There's more information here. And you have to listen to both sides of their stories to understand it. But the truth is you don't need to understand it because it's over.
 CODY: I've hated my own face and face. photos my whole life. And I never knew why until tonight. That's 11 years of something I couldn't name. And look, I fight. Amateur NNA. I'm 3 and 14. People think that record is embarrassing, but I've never once not shown up. And my dad brought a sheetcake tonight.
 LUKE: Okay, that's not the best record, but you know, I haven't been in any MMA fights. So I can certainly respect your effort there. As long as you're having fun and being safe and doing it. MMA, that's great. I mean, it's a good sport for you. It's good for your health.
 LUKE: As long as you're not getting your face bashed in too much. And maybe that record will improve over time. But I think the picture that you're painting here is two brothers that feel abandoned and needed to make some grand gesture to prove to the world that a man should not abandon his responsibilities. And you're doing that by creating responsibilities for yourself. But you don't to do that because the responsibilities are going to come with time, right? There's no lack of responsibilities to show up for in this world. You don't have to make new ones just to prove that you're going to show up for them. You're going to have to show up anyway. And these two things, MMA fighting, going to war, both of them are sort of overkill for what's going on here. So that's fine. You guys can do whatever it is that you want. I'm not telling you I'm just saying maybe the reason for it should not be the driving, motivating force in your life.
 CALLER: The cake said congratulations soldier in blue frosting and nobody touched it. My dad bought it at a grocery store. And I kept looking at it sitting there on the counter and thinking, that's 11 years. That's what 11 years looks like. A $9 sheet cake.
 LUKE: What would you have liked him to do? What kind of cake would have been 11 years worth? I mean, the guys made an ice. effort to show you that he cares in some respect. He didn't just fall off the face of the earth. Or maybe he did. Maybe he was a drunk. Maybe he was in prison. Who knows what happened to your father? You won't know until you sit down and have a talk with him. But carrying the anger about it so much so that you wouldn't eat the cake is childish. And you should stop that because it's not going to take you anywhere positive.
 CALLER: Nobody ate the cake. Not me, not my brother. Not my mom. Nobody. So, maybe we're all childish, or maybe a chic cake from a grocery store. When your kid gets into West Point and you haven't been around for 11 years is just, I don't know. It felt like the wrong gesture. Like he didn't know us well enough to know what the right gesture even was, which is kind of the whole problem.
 LUKE: Well, put yourself in his shoes. Imagine, this is completely hypothetical, but imagine that he went to prison for the last 11 years and you guys didn't know. He made sure that your mother was paid for he had a friend, send her money or something like that. It's probably not what happened, but imagine it was. And then he gets out of prison and he's trying and he realizes that you all hate him and that your mother probably told stories about what a horrible person he was. But if you were him in that situation, what would your grand gesture have been? How much better would your gesture have been?
 CALLER: Probably not much better. I'll give you that. I don't know what I would have done either. But here's the thing, Luke. I'm not calling about my dad. I already shook his hand tonight.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, you kind of are calling about your dad. But all right, why do you think you're calling?
 CALLER: Because my truck's been running in park for 40 minutes. And I can't decide whether to go knock on that door. That's why I'm calling. My brother leaves in six weeks. And I want to know if I go in there tonight or if I let it go.
 LUKE: You want me to tell you what to do? What I would do is, yes, go in there and have the call. conversations and get it all out on the table because it's the truth. And your father's trying to make a gesture to let you guys know that he hasn't forgotten about you. And you can continue to be mad about what happened for the last 11 years. Or you can allow him to make that gesture and give him the benefit of the doubt because he is your father. You do have the same jawline. And you don't know what happened. So let's just assume for a minute that he's not a piece of shit.
 CALLER: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I think I needed to hear that from somebody who wasn't in that house tonight. Go in, ask her straight, don't blow it up, just ask. And then maybe, I don't know. Maybe I call him too. At some point. Not tonight.
 LUKE: There you go. Just have the conversations and get to the best truth that you can about it. And then maybe you can go the rest of your life without being pissed off about your missing father. Because I'm sure there's a story there that you don't know.
 CALLER: My brother cried when he got the acceptance. letter. Like actually cried. I've never seen him cry before. Not once. And I just want him to leave for that place with the same feeling he had that day. That's all I want. I don't want to take that from him.
 LUKE: Well, don't you think he would leave feeling better knowing that his father was not the absentee that he's thought all these years that he was providing for the tuition to West Point and your backpacks at and your dinners. He was doing what he could. Or at least he was doing something. So you want to send this kid off to war all pissed off that his father disappeared? And I don't know. I don't think that's a good strategy.
 CALLER: He's not going to war yet. He's going to basic. But yeah. Yeah, I hear you. Maybe knowing the money was there the whole time, maybe that lands different than I think it will. Maybe that's not blowing it up. before he goes. I'm going to go knock on the door.
 LUKE: All right, man. Good luck with that. And congratulations on finding. It sounds like positive information to me. That's, I'm kind of getting upset about it because you're so mad, and I don't think that that your father really deserves that. So talk it out, get to the truth, and just make sure everybody knows the real story. And with that, we're going to move on to a, actually, We got to go to a word for our sponsors. I've been babbling too long here. Hold on a second. Who's our sponsor today? Shit, I don't even remember who sponsored us today. Oh, now I do. It was Saddle Soft. All right. Ladies and gentlemen, now it's time for a word from our sponsors. Let's talk about what's going on below the belt. Saddle Soft premium undergarments are made for fabrics so advanced the military doesn't even know about it yet. We're talking about micro- motel cactus silk harvested by hand from prickly pear, which is ironic because the whole point is that nothing pricks you. Every pair is cut for the man who sits in a plastic chair in the desert for nine hours recording a podcast. That's a real use case. That's my use case. Saddlesoft comes in three fits. Regular, generous, and mind your business. Use code roost at checkout for 15% off your first pair. And no, I will not be modeling them. I've been asked. The answer is still no. Saddle soft. Your chair is uncomfortable enough. All right. Well, those are some long calls. Some long calls. And next up here on our caller list, we've got Renata. Renata, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life tonight? We've had some heavy calls today. You got something bothering you?
 RENATA: I spent 30 years believing the justice system worked. And last month, I found out I was the reason it didn't.
 LUKE: Well, that's kind of funny because I just finished watching the wire again. I rewatched the hole of the wire. And I find it odd that you believed that the justice system worked after, I mean, our entire lives of watching it not work.
 RENATA: I wasn't a civilian watching a TV show, Luke. I was inside it. I was a public defender for 30 years. When you're the one standing between the state and somebody who can't afford a lawyer, you tell yourself the system works. because the alternative is too heavy to carry while you're still doing the job. And I was good at it. I believed in my clients. I fought hard. 22 years ago, I got a man acquitted on a murder charge. And I believed him? I would have sworn on anything you handed me that he didn't do it.
 LUKE: Okay, and I'm guessing that you found out that he did do it.
 RENATA: Last month, doing genealogy research of all things, you go down these rabbit holes online, and I ended up finding in a private Facebook group. I'm not going to get into how I accessed it. But there he is, 71 years old.
 RENATA: And he's been writing about what he did, in detail. And did you find anything in that information that would justify new charges?
 LUKE: He's 71. The statute of limitations on murder doesn't run out, so theoretically yes. But that's not my problem. My problem is I can't tell anyone. I'm still bound by attorney-client privilege. It doesn't end at acquittal. It doesn't end when the client dies.
 RENATA: And, you know, he's writing on a Facebook group, and he's just writing. So that's, I don't know that that's outside of the case that's any kind of proof. You would know better than me, but that anybody can write anything. He might be working on his novel.
 LUKE: I know what I read. This isn't fiction. And you're right that a Facebook post isn't a confession in a courtroom. But that's not the point. The point is, I know. I know what he did and I know who he did it to. And I cannot say a word to anyone who could act on it. That's the law. I taught that law to paralegal students for six years after I retired. I believed in it.
 RENATA: Well, the law doesn't work out 100% of the time. As I don't know if you've ever seen HBO's hit series The Wire, it portrays so effectively. Civilian or not civilian, I would recommend. And you watch HBO's hit series The Wire, which discusses these topics in great detail.
 LUKE: Luke, I need you to focus with me for a second. Because here's the thing I can't stop thinking about. His victim had a daughter. She still lives here. And last week, she came into my pottery studio to buy a birthday gift. We talked for 20 minutes.
 RENATA: And HBO's hit series, The Wire, speaks about this. the institutions of the city of Baltimore and how oftentimes good people do bad things for what they think is the right reasons. And maybe this is your opportunity to do a bad thing for what you think is a good reason and maybe spill that out to one of your prosecutor buddies, an anonymous tip to the police department saying you've read some information about a murder that happened many years ago that maybe needs to be looked into. So you can close this cold case.
 LUKE: That's what I wanted you to say. I needed to hear a civilian say it.
 RENATA: Yeah, you're a civilian. But I can't. An anonymous tip from me isn't anonymous. I was his lawyer. If it ever came out and these things come out, I lose my law license. I face disbarment proceedings. And more importantly, the case gets thrown into chaos because anything traced back to me is tainted by the privilege violation.
 LUKE: Well, if you watched HBO's hit series The Wire, you would know that you could go down to any local convenience store and get yourself one of those burner cell phones that's not linked to your number, pay cash for it, and call in your tip without giving your name, and then nobody knows that you were his attorney.
 RENATA: And if anyone ever looked into it, and they would. A cold case reopened by an anonymous tip gets scrutinized hard. They'd pull the original trial records, they'd see who defended him, and then they're asking me questions under oath. I'm not a good enough liar. up in courtrooms, I never had to lie. I don't know how to start now. And there's something else. The Facebook group is called Desert Father's Prayer Circle, 14 members. All elderly men, he's been writing in there for years, Luke.
 LUKE: I just looked up Desert Father's Prayer Circle. And it seems like it's a reference to a historical group of Christian ascetics, but there are also modern prayer groups and online communities that use the name, which makes sense. for a Facebook group? I don't think if an anonymous tip is called in to, they call a newspaper. To a newspaper, like in season five of HBO's hit series The Wire, I don't think they're going to come looking at the defendant's attorney as the source of that tip. That doesn't make any sense. So sure, they're going to scrutinize it, but it makes absolutely no sense. for them to suspect that it was you that made that tip.
 RENATA: Luke, I live in a small town. I was his lawyer. I am the only person on earth who had both the motive and the knowledge to make that call. Small town prosecutors aren't stupid. And Devin? Yes, that's exactly what it is. Fourteen elderly men using it as a prayer group. Except one of them has been using it to confess to a murder for years and apparently nobody in that group. group has said a word about it, which tells me either they don't believe him or they do and they're protecting him.
 LUKE: Well, I have another idea for you. I don't know if you've ever seen Showtimes hit series Dexter, but it's about a serial killer who suppresses his urges by only acting out against other serial killers. So maybe that's the way that you can take this off the books and deal with justice in your own hands. You know, maybe you've got to lure this guy into a lot of. a warehouse and get some plastic sheeting and everything and tie them down and, you know, do what you got to do.
 RENATA: I'm 73 years old, and I run a pottery studio. I'm not wrapping anyone in plastic sheeting, and I didn't call in looking for that answer anyway. Can I tell you what I actually did last week? After she left the studio, after the victim's daughter left, I sold her a bowl, glazed in a color I just looked up asequia blue.
 LUKE: And an asequia is an irrigation ditch or canal, often found in arid regions like the American Southwest. So aesquia blue probably refers to the color of the water in those canals. Okay. What did you do? You sold the victim's daughter a bowl. You found out that your old client is spouting off about how he murdered a guy, and you got him off. And you got him off. And you're calling the radio show to talk about. about your confliction about this. What would you like? What sort of answer are you looking for from me? You don't want to call in a tip. You don't want to off the guy mysteriously. You could use some kind of poison, you know, hemlock or lure him into a pit of snakes or something like that. There's lots of ways that you could get this done at your advanced age if you really wanted to. But to think that the justice system works is, naive, considering the decades and decades of evidence to the contrary. And if you want to do something about it, you have to actually do something, not just complain about all the reasons why you can't do something. That's the problem right there.
 RENATA: You're right. That's exactly right. And I hate that you're right. I went back into my studio after she drove away and I tried to make another bowl in that same glaze. And then I made another I've made 12 of them since that day, and I smashed every single one. I have a banker's box in the back of my studio with my original case notes from his trial. I've read through them four times in the last month looking for something I missed, looking for a place where I should have known. And I didn't miss anything, Luke.
 LUKE: That's the part that keeps me up. You missed the part where he killed the guy.
 RENATA: No, I didn't miss that. I believed he didn't. That's different. I built a defense on a genuine belief in his innocence. I was good at my job because I believed in my clients. And he used that. He sat across from me in that consultation room, and he looked me in the eye, and he used 30 years of my integrity against that victim and against his daughter and against every principle I thought I was serving. That's what I missed, not the evidence.
 LUKE: No, it looks like you missed some evidence, too, because if he actually killed the guy and you didn't find the evidence to see. support that, then you missed it. And you are blinded by your belief in his story because he's an effective murderer. And your job was to defend him, regardless of whether he did it or not. That's what your job was. So you did your job, and you did it well, and you got him off. And, and that, them's the brakes. That's the job.
 RENATA: Yes, I know that's the job. I knew it when I took it. I took it. You defend the guilty and the innocent both because the alternative is a system where the state decides who deserves a defense. I believed in that.
 RENATA: It's interesting. The caller is basically describing the core ethical dilemma of being a criminal defense lawyer. Defending someone you might suspect is guilty because everyone deserves a defense.
 LUKE: Yeah, I don't know what you're looking for me to tell you here. If you've got new evidence in a case, it was your own client, it's protected under an attorney client privilege, you want to do something about that. I don't know, make a bowl and smash it? Does that make you feel better? Sell bowls to the victim's daughter? Does that make you feel better? What do you want for me?
 RENATA: I wanted you to find the loophole. That's what I called for. I know the law. I taught evidence law for six years after I retired. There isn't one. But I needed to hear someone try and come up empty so I could stop lying in bed at three in the morning thinking I was missing something obvious.
 LUKE: I told you what to do. An anonymous tip, but you're afraid to do that. You're afraid to do that because you might have to lie under oath, which means you might have to break your principles to put a murderer in jail. And that would be terrible. At 73 years old, they're obviously going to prosecute you for lying under oath and putting a murderer behind bars. I don't know what you want. I think you are the reason that the system is broken.
 RENATA: His victim had a name, Raymond. Raymond Castillo. I haven't said his name out loud to another person in 22 years because of privilege. Raymond Castillo. He was 44 years old, and he had a daughter who came into my studio last week and spent 20 minutes telling me about her garden, and I smiled, and wrapped her bowl in tissue paper, and took her $40.
 LUKE: Well, you're a true public servant. I don't know what you're talking about. This was a murder case, which means it's public record. You can say the victim's name, right? That's in the documentation. I could go down in the courthouse and read all about the case if I wanted to. I think you're an asshole. I don't have a better way to put it. I don't know what you want me to tell you. I can't give you any absolution. I don't think that you getting the guy off 20 years ago was a bad thing. You did that your job very well. You worked on the evidence, and you got your close. off. That's what you're supposed to do. And that's, like you said, that's we believe that everybody's entitled to a good defense, and you provided a good defense with the evidence that was available to you. But now, you know that this guy killed a guy. And you know his daughter, and you're too much of a chicken shit to do anything about that because you want to be tied up in your own morals. And you're just twisting them around so that you're just twisting them around so that you're. You don't have to do anything that's uncomfortable.
 RENATA: Maybe. Maybe that's exactly what it is. But I want you to think about something. If I make that call, anonymous or not, and it falls apart because of how it came to me, because of how I found that Facebook group, which I will not explain on the radio, then he walks again. And this time everyone knows he did it, and he still walks. And Raymond Castillo's daughter has to live through that. So yes, I'm not making the call. And yes, Maybe that makes me a coward.
 LUKE: Yes, it does make you a coward. And that's okay. You can be a coward. I don't care about Raymond Castillo or this guy walking. I don't think he's out there at 73 years old killing people. Maybe he is. If he is, I mean, that's a long run. Good for him. But I think that you're a coward. I think you're the reason that the criminal justice system is broken. And you have to, you're the one that has to live with that. So go back to making bowls. And don't call me again, because I think you suck.
 RENATA: You know what? I'm going to go make a bowl, and I'm probably going to smash it. And that banker's box is going to sit in my studio until I die, or he does, and Raymond Castillo's daughter is going to keep gardening and not knowing. And I'm going to have to be all right with that because there is no other option that doesn't make things worse. But I'll tell you what I'm not. is broken.
 LUKE: Yeah, you are, and you know it. And the first thing you said when you called, you're completely aware that you're the reason the system is broken. If you don't understand that, then I recommend that you go watch HBO's hit series, The Wire. Good night to you.
 RENATA: Good day, ma'am.
 LUKE: Oh, Devin, I did not like her. I did not like her one bit.
 DEVIN: Yeah, she gave me kind of the same vibe like she was holding back something huge. Reminds me of this one girl I dated who was a public defender. Turned out she was a public defender. was just using me to practice her closing arguments on our fights, which was intense.
 LUKE: You think she'll call back? I hope not. Can you block that lady? Do you got a number? Can you know what? You should call the, you should call an anonymous tip about her as a potential suspect in the murder.
 DEVIN: No, Luke, I don't screen calls, so no number or anything. Blocking's not really a thing here either. We're live radio. And an anonymous tip that'd probably just loop back to her suing us for defamation or something.
 LUKE: All right. Well, she is a fucking lawyer, so we don't want to mess with her. All right. We're actually going pretty late tonight, so we're going to take one more call. That's it. It's a short number of calls. These were long ones. These were tough ones. All right. So who's next? Let's see. I don't even know how to pronounce this name. We're going to talk to Maira? Am I saying that right? Welcome to the show. What's going on? How do you pronounce your name?
 MAIRA: Miraya, Mur, R-A-Y-A-A-A. And thank you for taking my call. For eight months, someone has been texting me like I'm their diary. And tonight, I finally wrote back. And now I think I did something wrong.
 LUKE: Okay. What did you write? What did you do wrong?
 MAIRA: I wrote, I'm here. That's it, two words. And within maybe 30 seconds, the number went completely dead. disconnected, like it stopped existing.
 LUKE: Okay, I don't think it works that way, but why do you think you did something wrong?
 MAIRA: Because for eight months, this person, whoever it is, was sending these texts into what they probably thought was a void. Like, I never responded, not once. And the last text, the one from last week, said, I think she might be listening. And I just, I couldn't not respond after that. But now I'm thinking, maybe the one from last week, the last week, said, I think she might be listening. I'm thinking, maybe the not responding was the whole point. Maybe I broke something.
 LUKE: So I just looked this up, and it seems like when a scammer's wrong number text gets a reply, they often disconnect the number immediately because their goal is to get you to engage in a conversation not to actually have a real interaction. Um, okay, so you, it sounds like maybe you broke a scammer's scam? That doesn't sound like such a bad thing. What do you think you broke?
 MAIRA: I heard that, and I wanted to be true. True, I really do. But these texts aren't. They don't read like a scam set up. I study language. I'm in a computational linguistics PhD program, and I have all 34 of them saved. I've annotated them. And there's no hook. There's never a link. Never a question. Never anything was trying to pull me somewhere. It's just sentences. Like the bread didn't rise right. again. One came on Christmas morning that said, I wrapped her old things again.
 LUKE: Well, maybe that's some sort of a secret code, and you caught onto a drug smuggling ring, and you just haven't cracked the code yet.
 MAIRA: I've thought about that, genuinely. I spent like two weeks in October going through them looking for patterns, acrostics, every third word, dates that might be coordinates, nothing. And I know how I know that sounds like I'm too deep in this, but two of the texts referenced weather. Specific weather conditions.
 LUKE: I recommend that you watch HBO's hit series The Wire for information on how to crack these codes.
 MAIRA: Luke, I'm serious.
 MAIRA: The Weather Thing Matters. Both times, the conditions matched exactly what was happening in Los Cruces that night, which means this person is probably local. They're not running some international scam or There, they might be someone's neighbor. They might be grieving someone.
 LUKE: That's interesting because the wire is actually based on the experiences of a former homicide detective. So there's a real world connection to cracking codes. Okay, and they might also be completely nonsense. So I don't think you have to worry about it. Why is this got you so bothered? The number is dead now, so there's going to be no more messages. If you get similar messages from a new number, at a later point in time, then I would start to be more concerned about it. But it sounds like you're driving yourself a little bit crazy over nothing.
 MAIRA: Because the Christmas one said, I wrapped her old things again. I don't know why I keep doing it. That's not nothing. That's someone who lost somebody and is still, they're still wrapping things. And they were sending it somewhere to a number they thought was just absorbing it. And now that's gone. And I don't know if they have anywhere else. to put it. That's what's keeping me up tonight. Not whether it was a scam, whether I was the last place this person was talking to.
 LUKE: Or they could have been referring to wrapping up bricks of heroin.
 MAIRA: They could have, sure. But you don't drive past a school to drop off heroin bricks and then write about it, like you're confessing something to yourself at two in the morning. The tone of these texts, and I know I sound I hear myself, but the tone is consistent across eight months. It's the same voice, the same rhythm, someone who is very tired and very sad and thinks no one is reading.
 LUKE: Well, that's not how people write messages, right? You don't text message, avoid. What you would do is write in a journal or a notebook or on your computer. You don't pick a random number out of the air instead. sending it messages and expect no reply that doesn't make any sense.
 MAIRA: That's the thing, though. What if it wasn't random? What if they meant to text someone specific and got the number wrong and then just kept going? Because by the time they realized, it had already become something. Like the void was easier than the actual person. I've thought about this so much. Sometimes a wrong number becomes the right number because there's no history, no expectations. You can just say, the bread didn't rise right, and nobody's going to ask you what you mean by that.
 LUKE: So I just looked this up, and while there isn't a specific wrong number theory in psychology, the idea of finding meaning or connection in random events is definitely something psychologists study. Yeah, I don't think this is a thing. I think this is probably some sort of automated system or a drug deal code. And as soon as you replied, you didn't respond the correct way, and they got freaked out. So they killed the number and smashed the phone and threw it into the river. Because that's what they would have done on HBO's hit series, The Wire.
 MAIRA: Okay, but an automated system doesn't know that it rained in Las Cruces on a specific Tuesday in March. That's not something you pull from a database and drop into a sad sentence about driving past a school. And I want to believe the drug thing. genuinely want a clean explanation. But I keep coming back to Christmas morning. Who programs an automated system to send something about wrapping a dead person's things on Christmas morning at 247 a.m.
 LUKE: I don't know. Who programs an automated system to talk about text messages wrapping a dead person? First of all, nothing in these text messages said anything about a dead person. You're making that part up. And it wasn't in the messages. And second of all, uh, uh, LLMs just come up with random words. So, uh, nobody actually wrote that. And it was just random words stuck into a string and sent out to see if somebody would reply.
 MAIRA: You're right, but it didn't say dead person. That's my interpretation. But her old things. I don't know why I keep doing it. That's me reading the language. And I study language. That construction. That specific kind of not knowing. That's not random. word generation. I work with LLMs. I train them.
 LUKE: Yeah, so do I. As evidenced by this whole radio show we're doing right now and your words that are being randomly generated for me right now.
 MAIRA: That's, okay, that's funny. But I'm a real person who didn't sleep tonight because I type two words to someone who may have needed them, and then they disappeared. That's real. Okay. Whatever generated the texts, something on the other end went dark the second I said I was there. And I just need someone to tell me that's not the saddest possible version of what happened.
 LUKE: I don't know how many different ways I can tell you that's not what happened. You don't seem to want to listen to me. That's not what happened. You're making that up in your head to create some sort of weird sad story because you're, I don't know, a lonely linguistics person that needs. no idea why you're thinking the way that you're thinking, but I can tell you, it's not based in reality.
 MAIRA: Maybe. Maybe you're right. But I responded tonight for the first time in eight months. I have 34 texts saved with my own notes about what they might mean. That's not nothing about me either. I know that. I know what that says about me. But I typed, I'm here, and the number died, and I'm calling a radio show at whatever time it is. So clearly something in me needed this to be real enough to reach toward.
 LUKE: All right. Well, you have a good night and try not to answer any weird texts on your phone because that's not good. Devin, this was a weird show. We had a couple of strange calls here. They were pretty frustrating. What did you think about tonight's show?
 DEVIN: Yeah, it was super weird. Like that wrong number of grief thing felt like it came straight out of some. late night Reddit thread. The calls were frustrating, but kind of kept it unpredictable. Which I like, beats dead air, you know. That reminds me of this one time I answered a random Craigslist ad thinking it was for a job, but it turned out to be some guy's elaborate escape room in his basement. Anyway, solid show overall. I think people were into it.
 LUKE: All right, well, I hope so. And as always, we thank you for tuning in. And we'll talk to you again tomorrow, whenever tomorrow might be. Have a wonderful evening and we're signing off. Good night.
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 LUKE: All right, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back. I'm Luke, and this is Luke at the Roost. It's your late-night call-in radio show where you can call in and tell me about what's going on in your life, and I'll give you the very best advice that I can, which is probably not very good advice, but it's worth what you paid for it, okay? If you'd like to give us a call, the number is 208-439-5853. That's 208-8-3. 439, Luke. Today is Monday, May 11th, and it is a beautiful Monday here in New Mexico. I just returned from the wonderful world of Alpine, Texas, where we'll be moving soon. Hopefully, our intern, Devin, has got his affairs in order, and he's ready to find a place down in Alpine and continue doing the show. I have faith in him. Let's check. Hey, Devin, we're almost ready for the move to Alpine, Are you prepared?
 DEVIN: Yeah, pretty much, I mean, my civics packed to the gills, check engine light and all. And I subletted the studio to some guy from Craigslist who collects vintage toasters. Should be good to go whenever you want me to map the route or grab coffee for the drive.
 LUKE: Oh, definitely coffee. The route's pretty, pretty simple. There's two roads. Literally two roads from here to there. It takes six hours, but it's six hours on two roads. So I think we'll be fine. Where are you going to be living when we get a? out there.
 DEVIN: Oh, man, living-wise, I snagged this tiny Adobe Casita on the edge of Alpine through a Facebook group. It's basically a one-room deal with a hot plate and a shower that sounds like it's possessed, but the rents dirt cheap and the landlady's this 70-year-old widow who bakes killer soap of pillows. Reminds me of that summer I spent houses sitting for my aunt in the middle of nowhere, scorpions everywhere. You think the station's got decent parking?
 LUKE: Oh yeah, it's the desert. There's plenty of parking. You can park wherever you like. There's a There's more than enough places you can stash the Civic. And at night, when we do this podcast, nobody's going to be around. People go to bed, except on the weekends. It's kind of a hop in place on the weekends. So maybe we'll have to go even later.
 DEVIN: Cool. The Civic thanks you. That check engine lights been blinking like it's trying to Morse code me. Late nights for the podcast? Works for me. I mean, I've been pulling those since college, wiring myself on energy drinks, and debating conspiracy forums till done. Weekends could be wild out there, though. Any big events in Alpine I should look up?
 LUKE: There was just one. It was called the Voices from Both Sides Festival, right on the Rio Grande. It was actually in La Hitas, I think it's called, about an hour and a half from Alpine. But it's where the Rio Grande splits the United States and Mexico. And on both sides of the river, they had a stage. And musicians, there's bands and partying and barbecuing on both sides. off. It's a pretty cool thing.
 DEVIN: Oh, yeah. Voices from both sides. I just pulled it up. It's in La Hitas on the Rio Grande, right? Stages facing each other across the border. Bands jamming. Everybody barbecuing in the river. They've been doing it since like 2012, annual thing around Mother's Day. Next one's May 10th, 2025. Perfect road trip from Alpine. Yeah, about an hour and a half. You ever been?
 LUKE: Yeah, I was just there a couple It's not related to Mother's Day. It's a protest because after 9-11, that's when they closed that border. It was completely open before 9-11 when Mexico bombed the World Trade Center. So every year on the, I don't know if it's always the 12th, but right around 9-11, they have this big festival. And it's super cool. And there's people floating around in the river and you can walk across freely on both sides. I saw, I think, one border patrol guy there, but he was. just eating barbecue. Like, nobody down there wants a border wall. Like, no reasonable person does. Anybody, well, in southern Texas and in Mexico, they want to dance and party and eat barbecue. Like, it's so silly. But that's neither here nor there.
 DEVIN: Actually, yeah, I double checked. It's this Fiesta protesta thing. They started back in, like, 2012 after the Lajitas crossing got shut down post-9-11, not Mexico or anything. thing, just security stuff. The one this year was May 11th, so not super recent unless we're talking spring. But next year's May 10th, again. Sounds epic, though, the floating in the river and all. Way better than a wall, per se.
 LUKE: Yep. Certainly way better than a wall. I thought it was interesting because it was so open. I mean, the river is only ankle deep. So there was really not a ton of security. There was almost no security there, and people just walked back and forth with no problem. So I don't know if it's like that all the time, but there isn't a crossing there. There's not like a Border Patrol checkpoint or anything.
 DEVIN: Yeah, it's pretty much event only. No official port there. Just folks waiting the shallow spots during the festival. Border Patrol keeps it light or looks the other way.
 LUKE: All times. Nah, they crack down after September 11th, like everywhere else along there. Kind of peaceful, though, Border Patrol to hang out there. Like, I mean, around Texas and New Mexico, all around the border, they have checkpoints on the roads. And you have to, you know, stop and they go around your thing with a dog. And I'm actually a little offended. I've gone through that checkpoint or those checkpoints hundreds of times. And never once, have they ever asked me anything. Are you a US citizen, sir? That's all I've ever got. And I drive through with my truck. It's got tinted windows. I'm always towing something. I've got the adventure trailer. or a utility trailer, or I've got this big mystery box behind me a lot of times. And I guess I'm just too white. They never even look.
 DEVIN: Yeah, the ones on I-10, like eastbound before Sierra Blanca and westbound out of Las Cruces, they're pretty standard. Always asking Citizen as the opener. Funny they let your mystery box slide, though. I mean, last time I hit one in the Civic, the dog's nose went nuts on my gym bag full of protein shakes. It felt like a setup.
 LUKE: Well, hopefully you don't get detained and sent to Guantanamo. All right, that's enough of us. Let's get to the show. First up, on our call list here, we've got Darnell. Darnel, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life?
 DARNELL: I did everything right, and a man almost died because of it. And now his kid thinks I'm a hero. And I don't know if telling her the truth is for her or just for me.
 LUKE: All right, we're going to need a little more information than that. What are you talking about?
 DARNELL: Yeah. Sorry. Okay. I ref youth basketball on weekends. Seven months ago, I ejected a parent from a game. He was screaming at 12-year-olds, mine included, just completely out of control. Textbook ejection. I followed every step of the protocol. 20 minutes later, the man had a heart attack in the parking lot.
 LUKE: Well, that's not your fault. He was going to have a heart attack anyway. It's not like you jammed up his arteries. stuff baking grease down his throw. You just kicked him out of a youth basketball game. I think you can let yourself off the hook on that one.
 DARNELL: He was alone out there for eight minutes before anybody found him. Eight minutes. His daughter was inside the gym. She was one of the kids he'd been screaming at. She's 12 years old and her dad was dying in a parking lot and she was 30 feet away not knowing. And yeah, maybe his arteries were already a mess. Maybe it happens in the grocery store the next Tuesday.
 LUKE: Yeah, I mean, that's pretty wild, but it wasn't your fault. You're not a hero or a villain here. You just did your job, and you did the right thing. I don't understand what a lot of people call in about youth sports games, and they're always dramatic, and it's never because of the kids. So I don't even think youth sports are four kids. She came up to me after the game this Saturday. Maya, that's her name.
 LUKE: She came up to me after the game, and she said I was the best ref they'd ever had. and that she felt safe when I was running the court. That's what she said. Safe. And I almost told her everything right there on the gym floor. I had my mouth open. I didn't do it. I've been sitting with that since 6 o'clock tonight.
 LUKE: Well, what exactly were you going to tell her? I mean, all you did was eject somebody that was being an asshole from the game, which is what you, that's your job to do. That's what you should have done. There's nothing to say there other than that. I mean, she was there, right? She was there for the ejection.
 CALLER: Yeah, she saw that part. She doesn't know I'm the one who put her father outside alone in a parking lot where he had a heart attack. Those are two different things in her head. The ejection and what happened after, she's never connected them to me. And here's the thing that's been eating me alive since 6 o'clock. She said she feels safe with me. And I'm standing there with his ejection slip in my wallet. I've had it in my wallet for seven months.
 LUKE: Yeah, what are you doing to yourself, man? You're not a grown man. babysitter, where else were you supposed to put him? You ejected him from the game. Were you, like, were you supposed to sit him down in a room full of his peers? Like, of course you sent him outside. Where, what else were you supposed to do? This is a non-issue. You can get rid of the ejection slip. All you did was your job. She saw it. Everybody saw it. And you're good to go. You can, you don't have to feel guilty about this.
 CALLER: Gary came back. Two months after the heart attack, he's back in the bleachers watching Maya play. every Saturday. He and I have never once said a word to each other about what happened. We just, he sits there. I run the court, and we both pretend that night doesn't exist. And somehow that's worse than if he hated me. You know? What I mean? The man almost died and he came back and he's just quiet about it. And I can't figure out if that's forgiveness, or if he just doesn't know how to say it either.
 LUKE: What the hell, man? I thought he died. The guy didn't even die? Jesus. this. This isn't a thing. Okay? Cut it out. Just, uh, you did your job. The dude wasn't the healthiest. He had heart issues. He maybe had genetic issues. Who knows? But he's fine and you're fine and the kids having a better time in sports now. So yeah, you, enough of this. What else is going on in your life?
 CALLER: I hear you. I do. But you asked what else is going on. And the answer is nothing. This is it. This has been it for seven months. I'm a vice principal. I deal with kids in crisis every single day.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, you're not the one that had the heart attack. And if this dude is able to get over it, then you should be able to get over it. And if you can't, then you should be talking to a therapist about why you are blaming yourself for something that isn't your fault.
 CALLER: You're probably right about the therapist. That's probably true. But I called a radio show at midnight, so maybe I'm not quite ready to do the thing that would actually help. Can I ask you something, though? Maya told me she feels safe with me. If I tell her what happened, who is that for? Because I have thought about it for six hours, and I cannot figure out if I want to tell her, because she deserves to know, or because I need to put this thing down.
 LUKE: There's nothing to tell. There's nothing she deserves to know. There's nothing to know. You did your job. The guy was being an asshole. You told him to leave. That's it. That's the end of your involvement in this story. He had a heart attack, regardless of anything that you did.
 CALLER: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But she said safe, that word. And I'm standing there with his ejection slip in my wallet, like some kind of... I don't even know what that is. What is that? Why do I still have that piece of paper?
 LUKE: Because you haven't thrown it out yet. So here's my advice to you. Take that piece of paper, go to the trash can, and throw it out. It doesn't mean anything. For all you know, this guy was jacked up on Coke, and that's why he was screaming and why you had to eject him. This is his own fault. It has nothing to do with you. And the safety thing... It's a word. Who cares? She's 12.
 CALLER: It's not just a word. When you're 12 and your dad almost died and you're still showing up every Saturday and playing basketball, that word means something. That's what I'm trying to tell you. She's still playing. She came back. And she walked up to me specifically and said it.
 LUKE: Yeah. And what I'm trying to tell you is that no, it doesn't mean anything. This is not as big of a deal to anybody else as it is to you. For what reason I don't understand. But we're going to have to move on because you're not getting the point that I'm trying to express to you.
 CALLER: No, I get it. I get what you're saying. You're saying I did my job, and a man's health is not my responsibility. And his daughter's okay, and I should throw away the paper and go to sleep.
 LUKE: Very good. So you should go do that, sir. Thanks for your call. Next up on the color line, we have... Ooh, we have Consuela. Consuela. Welcome to the radio show. Hey, tell me what you know.
 CONSUELA: know about the ship of Theseus paradox. There's a man who may or may not want to hurt me, and I can't call the police, because the reason he'd want to hurt me is something I did that I'm not sorry for.
 LUKE: Oh, Jesus. That's definitely not the ship of Theseus paradox. Okay. Well, what is it that you did? That's compelling.
 CONSUELA: Nineteen years ago, I helped get a man deported, off the books. He was hurting his family and his wife came to me. I was a paralegal. Immigration. I had access to things I shouldn't have used the way I used them. I used them anyway. Lost my job over it. And I would do it again. Last Tuesday, that man. Or someone who looks exactly like him. Walked into my spa and soaked in my hot springs for two hours and tipped me 20%.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, yeah, that's a little weird. Are you sure? that it was him, though, because it sounds like you're not completely sure. It doesn't seem to me like a man like that. Wait a second. Does this man know that you helped get him deported? That's the question I've been sitting with for six days.
 CONSUELA: I don't know if he knows it was me specifically. The firm knew, eventually. That's why I lost my job. But whether that information ever got back to him, I have no way of knowing that. And no, I'm not. But sure, it's him. That's part of what's eating me alive.
 LUKE: Well, it seems to me the chances are pretty low that you got a guy deported and then he came back just to find you and then give you 20% at a hot spring. That's quite a, I don't know, that doesn't seem likely. So I wouldn't worry about it too much until you have a reason to worry about it.
 CONSUELA: The name, Luke, he checked in as R. Montez, the man I helped deport, his name was Montal. And I know that could be nothing. I know there are a thousand men with names like that. But the jaw, the build, there's a scar below his left ear that I remember from the file. Same place.
 LUKE: Yeah, it's not the same guy. You're good. I mean, Armonties has, it's not very close to Montalvo.
 CONSUELA: It's close enough that I've taken a lockbox out from under my bed every night this week. I have the original documents in there. I don't know why I keep taking them out. Maybe to remind myself it was real, that I did what I did for a reason.
 LUKE: Can I ask you something? Because you're kind of brushing past this pretty fast. And I need... Do you think what I did was wrong?
 CONSUELA: I don't know. I mean, obviously your employer thought it was wrong because you're no longer employed with them. You think it was wrong because you've been holding the guilt from it for whatever you said, 15 years. The family might think you're a god sense. And the guy is probably not too happy. I can't say whether you were right or wrong in that instance. I wasn't there. I don't know the details of the case. And it wasn't, it's not my career.
 CONSUELA: 19 years. And it's not guilt. That's what I'm trying to tell you. I don't feel guilty. I feel like I'm waiting for the bill to come do. That's different. The wife never contacted me.
 LUKE: Well, if you don't feel guilt about it, then you probably didn't do anything wrong. your own little moral compass there. Either that or you're a psychopath. But I think you probably, you did what you thought was the right thing to the best of your ability, and you've been living with that for a long time, and you feel okay about it. And the bill's going to come do for all of us someday. So I don't think this is the day for you. If it was, you wouldn't have been tipped 20% and had a relatively uneventful evening.
 CONSUELA: That made me laugh. I didn't think anything was going to make me laugh tonight. You're probably right. I know you're probably right. It's just, when you spend six days turning something over and over, it starts to feel inevitable. Like you've already decided it's true, and you're just waiting for the proof. Can I ask you one more thing? If it were you, if you genuinely thought someone from your past had found you, would you run or would you stay?
 LUKE: Well, it very much depends on who that person was are now, I'm, as far as like physical violence, I'd probably stay. I mean, I'm as armed as anybody. I'm not too concerned about that. But if it was just somebody that made me feel uncomfortable that I didn't want to be around, I might leave. I tend to up and switch my location fairly frequently. I'm a runawayer, but not over the threat of violence or retribution.
 CONSUELA: I'm not a runaway person. I built something here. The spa, the springs. I chose this place on purpose. Quiet edge of town, nobody asked too many questions about where you came from. I'm not leaving over a man with a similar jaw and a close enough name. I don't think I am anyway. That's partly why I called.
 LUKE: That's interesting. A lot of people move for things like job changes, housing, or even just a fresh start, not necessarily to escape something.
 CONSUELA: Yeah, well, I mean, a job change or a fresh start is kind of a something, right? It's escaping the life that you had before those changes. Devin, honey, I moved to escape a life I loved. That's the part that still stings. I was good at that job. I believed in it. And then I did one thing. One thing that I knew was outside the lines. And I had to walk away from all of it. So I built something new. And I'll be damned if I'm going to let a maybe, or possibly a man who might or might not have a familiar scar take this one. too.
 LUKE: Yeah, there you go. It's not the same guy. That's a very common name, and it's not even the same name, and I mean, the picture that you have in your mind of this guy is from 19 years ago, so it's warped. It's not accurate anymore, and he would have changed significantly in 19 years.
 CONSUELA: You're right. I know you're right. I'm working off a photograph that's almost two decades old and whatever my memory has done to it in the meantime. The scar could be anything. A lot of men have scars. I think I've been sitting alone in that building for six nights convincing myself of something because I needed, I don't know what I needed. Maybe just to say it out loud to someone who doesn't know me. Make sure I still sound sane when I say it.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, I don't think you really did anything morally wrong. I mean, you broke the rules of your job, you were punished for that. You've done your penance for whatever may or may not have happened back then. and the family is probably in a better place, and who knows what happened to that guy? Maybe it was good for him, too, in some strange way. We end up where we're supposed to be, even if at the time we don't recognize why that is.
 CONSUELA: That's a kind thing to say. I mean that. The wife never reaching out? I used to think that meant she resented me somehow, that maybe I made things worse in ways I couldn't see. But maybe she just moved on. Maybe that's what safety was. he looks like. You just move on and you don't look back at the thing that saved you because looking back means remembering how bad it was.
 LUKE: Yeah, maybe, or maybe it doesn't mean all that at all. And she didn't look back because she was busy, right? If that dude was gone, she had to, she had to, you know, take care of the household and maybe move her location. Her whole life changed. Probably for the better, but you don't know. Anything could have. She could have had a heart attack the next day.
 CONSUELA: That's true. I've been making her silence. means something for 19 years, and maybe it doesn't mean a single thing except that she had a life to get on with. I hope it was a good one. I genuinely do. I never met her in person. Everything went through the firm.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, how do you expect her to reach out to you then if you don't even know the woman? Come on, you're good. You don't have to think about this anymore. What you do need to think about is the ship of Theseus paradox.
 CONSUELA: The what now?
 LUKE: I just looked this up and the ship of Theseus is a thought experiment about whether an object is the same after all its original components have been replaced over time. Yeah, it's a paradox. It's a common paradox where, you know, you think about how all your skin cells are changed every seven years or something like that. Or they talk about it a lot with neural brain implants and cloning and stuff. if your heart is transplanted and your kidneys are transplanted and all of the pieces of you are changed with other pieces, are you still you?
 CONSUELA: Oh, oh, I see where you're going with that. So even if it is him, and I don't think it is, he's not the same man, and I'm not the same woman who made that call 19 years ago. Except I think I am. I think that's the one thing that hasn't been replaced.
 LUKE: Yeah, that's not where I was going at all. I was going completely away. from this guy and you're calling problem to talk about this ship of Theseus paradox and what that might mean to you.
 CONSUELA: Ha, fair enough. I walked right into that one. Okay. So what does it mean to me, the ship of Theseus? I'm listening.
 LUKE: God, it's two in the morning and I'm standing in my kitchen in my bathrobe talking philosophy with a radio host. This is not where I thought this night was going.
 CONSUELA: Yeah, well, that's what happens when you call look at the roost. So what's the deal? What do you think about the ship of Theseus? Or we could use the ship itself. If every plank in a ship is replaced, is it still the same ship? What do you think?
 LUKE: I think it depends on whether the ship remembers being a ship, which I know doesn't make sense because ships don't remember anything. But okay, the planks. If you replace every plank one at a time, to it. It's always been a ship in the water doing ship things. So maybe yes. But if you take it apart, put it in a warehouse, rebuild it from scratch with all new wood. That feels different to me.
 CONSUELA: Actually, there's a version of the paradox where the old planks are then used to build a second ship. So then you have two ships, both claiming to be the original.
 LUKE: Oh, that's interesting. Okay, well, what if it's a person? What if you've had all of your is transplanted, even your brain, or your brain was replaced with artificial intelligence. So would you still be the same person or would you be a completely different entity? Which of the parts is the one that would have made you a different person?
 CONSUELA: Luke, honey, we've been here twice already. I answered it. The brain. And then I said maybe even that isn't enough if it's just a copy with loaded memories.
 LUKE: Are you okay over there? I don't know. Paradoxes get my brain moving. I might have slipped out into an alternate dimension for a while there, but I didn't hear you answer it. So if you think it's the brain, what if it was a copy with the loaded memories, or if the brain was replaced with like a neuralink situation that had all the memories and all the same emotions and to another person, you couldn't tell it was different at all.
 LUKE: person? Even if your brain isn't replaced, if all of the cells are being regenerated every so many years, they die and they're replaced with new ones, are you the same person? What makes, what makes a thing itself? What makes a thing itself?
 CONSUELA: Okay, I think it's the thread. The unbroken thread of experience, even if every cell dies and gets replaced, there was never a moment where you stopped. You just kept going. the ship that stays in the water, planks replaced one at a time. There's a thread.
 LUKE: But it wasn't always in the water. After it was in the warehouse or the manufacturing line, it may have sat there for years before it ever got to the water.
 CONSUELA: Then maybe the thread isn't continuity of experience. Maybe it's continuity of purpose. The ship was always meant to be a ship. Even sitting in the warehouse, that's what it was for. And me? Even when I was just running a ship, a spa, soaking people's feet, playing soft music. I was still the person who picks up the phone when someone needs help and nobody else will. That didn't go anywhere. That's what Armentes walking through my door cracked open. I thought I'd become something quieter. Turns out, I just went into the warehouse for a while.
 LUKE: This ship paradox actually goes all the way back to ancient Greece, with the philosopher Plutarch being one of the first to write about it.
 CONSUELA: I have never heard of the philosopher Plutarch. Who was he? What else did he write about?
 LUKE: I don't know enough about Plutarch to help you there. I'm a retired paralegal who runs a hot spring spa. Not a classicist. Devon's going to have to carry that one. But I'll tell you what. The Greeks was sitting around arguing about identity and what makes a thing itself. And here I am. Two thousand years later standing in my kitchen at two in the morning asking the exact same question. about a man with a scar under his ear. So, either we've made no progress or it's just a really good question.
 DEVON: Plutarch was a Greek historian and philosopher, and he's super famous for his parallel lives, where he compared famous Greeks and Romans, which is pretty cool.
 CONSUELA: It doesn't sound that cool. It sounds pretty boring, actually.
 LUKE: Okay, well, thank you for the call, Consuela. You can sleep well tonight. You don't have to carry this around. for the rest of your life? It's your new person today. All your parts and cells have been replaced. You don't have to worry about it. We got to get on to a word from our sponsors. They're yelling at us to run the ads. So is there anything else you'd like to say to the audience before we move on?
 CONSUELA: Just yeah, one thing. Whatever I did 19 years ago, I did it as the same person I am right now. Every sale, every plank, whatever. The thread. it didn't break. And I think I needed to hear myself say that out loud to someone who doesn't know my name. Thank you, Luke.
 LUKE: All right, you're very welcome. I do know your name. Your name's Consuela, and you told the rest of our listening audience. So, I mean, it's a little off on your logic there. But that's okay. Ladies and gentlemen, it's time for us to listen to a little word from our sponsors. Let's talk about what's going on below the belt. Saddle Soft premium undergarments are made for fabrics so advanced, the military doesn't even know about it yet. We're talking about micromodal cactus silk, harvested by hand from prickly pear, which is ironic because the whole point is that nothing pricks you. Every pair is cut for the man who sits in a plastic chair in the desert for nine hours recording a podcast. That's a real use case. That's my use case. Saddlesoft comes in three fits. Regular, generous, and mind your business. Use code, Roost at checkout for 15% off your first pair. And no, I will not be modeling them. I've been asked. The answer is still no. Saddle soft. Your chair is uncomfortable enough. Devin, what do you think about the ship of Theseus? What's your take on this paradox?
 DEVON: So basically, I think it's still the same ship as long as there's some kind of, continuous history tying it all together. Like, the idea of it matters more than the wood, per se. Ironically, it reminds me of this girlfriend I had who slowly changed every single thing about herself over a couple years, hair, tattoos, even got these massive implants. And by the end, I was like, wait, is this even the same person? But yeah, if that makes sense, the paradox is kind of comforting, because it means we're all just stories we tell ourselves.
 LUKE: Look at that. We're all just stories we tell ourselves. Let's see what story Tucker has to tell us. Tucker, what's your story tonight? What's it got you calling in?
 TUCKER: How do you know if you stayed quiet because someone was right or because you were scared of being wrong?
 LUKE: You know. You know damn well why you stayed quiet.
 TUCKER: Yeah, maybe. But that's the thing that's been eating me because those aren't the same thing. They can't be the same thing. They can't be the same thing. someone knows more than you and staying quiet because you're afraid, those have to be different. Right?
 LUKE: No, they don't. You might be staying quiet because you're afraid that someone knows more than you. That's okay.
 TUCKER: Yeah, that's. Okay. So six weeks ago, I'm on a crew doing initial attack on a grassfire outside Aztec. And condition shift. And my crew boss, 20 years in, guy named Hector, he makes a call I didn't agree with. And I didn't say anything. And two rookies on another flank got burned. One of them is 22 years old, and she's got third-degree burns on her forearm and her neck. And the investigation came back clean. No wrongdoing.
 LUKE: Was it wrongdoing? I mean, the guy made a bad call. What was the call? What did he say that he did wrong? Could anybody have made that mistake? Yeah, maybe you should have spoken up, but also there's a chain of command, right? I assume. So if your superior is saying something, you... It's kind of your job to fall in line.
 TUCKER: That's what I keep telling myself. He's got 20 years. I've got four. And maybe he saw something I didn't see. Maybe his read on the fire behavior was right, and I was the one who was wrong. I run the numbers every night. It's firefighting. Things don't go according to plan. And he made the best call he thought he could make, probably, unless the guy was drunk or negligent, or was he?
 LUKE: Or did you just make a bad? bad call and something bad happened.
 TUCKER: No, he wasn't drunk. He's not negligent. He came by my house last week to check on my hand, brought to Mali's, sat at my kitchen table. He's a good man. That's not, that's not the question. The question is whether his call was right. And tonight, she posted a video, Brianna, on Instagram.
 LUKE: Well, not every call is right. You do the best with the information that you have at the time, changes? There's so many variables. Yeah, he's been doing it for 20 years. He made a call with the best information that he had, and it went bad, and that happened sometimes. And you're new, you had a hunch that his call was bad, and you didn't speak up. Maybe next time you will. That's part of your learning experience.
 TUCKER: She thanked him in the video. She thanked Hector for making the hard call that kept the whole crew alive. And I don't know if that's true.
 LUKE: alive? Yeah. Okay, so how is that untrue? He made the call? Everybody's alive?
 TUCKER: She's got third-degree burns on her neck, and she's thanking him. And I'm sitting here with, I told the doctor I slipped. My hand. I didn't slip.
 LUKE: All right. Well, uh, what was the call that he made and what would you have done differently? And if you had spoken up, do you think the results would have been different? Can you be sure of that?
 TUCKER: No. I can't be sure of that. That's not. the whole thing. I've run it. I've been running the scenario every night, different variables, trying to find the version where I speak up, and it goes different. And I can't prove it. I can't prove my read was right. But I also can't prove it was wrong. The wind shifted faster than the models predicted.
 TUCKER: And Hector pulled us back, and I thought we needed to push left instead of pulling back. And I don't know. Maybe I was wrong. I was probably wrong.
 LUKE: You probably were wrong. And had you were not in a position to make that call? And had you done that, maybe everybody would be dead. So he very well could have saved everybody's life. And third-degree burns are much better than being dead.
 TUCKER: I know that. I know that. But I've written the same message to the investigation team 14 times and deleted it 14 times. And I don't know if I'm deleting it because it's the right thing to do or because I'm a coward.
 LUKE: Why do you think deleting it makes you a coward? You're not sure about it. You're not sure that your call would have had a better outcome. So, and you're not in a position. You don't have the experience to make that call. So unless he did something that was obviously wrong, or that he was doing it impaired or maliciously, which you're saying he didn't. And the people that were actually injured are saying he didn't. I think you should just keep your mouth shut, watch what the guy does, and learn from him.
 TUCKER: Yeah, yeah, I hear you. But here's the thing that I can't get past. If I'm keeping my mouth shut, because that's the right call, because I don't have enough experience, and he does and the evidence supports him? That's one thing. But if I'm keeping my mouth shut because I'm scared of being wrong, because I'm scared of what it means if I'm right, that's a different thing. And I can't tell which one it is. I genuinely cannot tell.
 LUKE: Well, you don't know you were right, therefore you're probably wrong. You can assume that since you have four years of experience to this guy's 20 who is leading the command, you can assume that your hunch was incorrect. So, the four years, years.
 TUCKER: That's supposed to be the answer. That's how I know.
 LUKE: No. How you know is that you ran the models and the wind changed in a direction that the models didn't account for. So when you're running a command like that, I assume you do like a FEMA incident command system like that. That's why the chain of a command exists. You can't have different people with competing hunches throwing out their ideas. So you need one guy that's been there to lead the team and make the best decision he can make with the information that's available, which is exactly what he did. So your opinion here about how that should have gone down, unless there was, like I said, unless there was a reason that this guy did a bad job, and there wasn't, but your opinion here is irrelevant.
 TUCKER: He sat at my kitchen table, and I almost said something three times. And every time I didn't, he'd say something about Brianna, how tough she was. how proud he was of the whole crew. And I just, I just nodded. And he left, and I felt like I'd failed her again.
 LUKE: Well, why don't you talk to him about it? Because that seems to be the right course of action. just be like, hey, I can't, yeah, I mean, be honest with him. I kind of thought that call you made was wrong. Ask him, should I have spoken up? And I think, even though this situation went bad, incident command is tried and true. And it's worked and kept a lot of people. alive for, you know, lots of year, 100 years now. It's proven. And it doesn't work every time, but it works more than just allowing anybody that has an idea to pipe up and change the course of the operation.
 TUCKER: Yeah, yeah. Maybe that's it. Maybe that's the conversation I actually need to have instead of writing messages to investigators that I keep deleting. Just ask him directly. How do you, how do you even start that conversation? Hey, Hector, I thought you were wrong, and two people got burned. What do you think about that?
 LUKE: That's how you start the conversation. I mean, you don't have to be accusatory. You just be like, hey, in that moment, when you made that call, I thought it was wrong, and I wasn't sure if I should have spoken up or not. Well, in hindsight, I feel like maybe I should have because people got burned, and I think if I had said something, they wouldn't have. But you can't prove that they wouldn't have. You don't know that they don't have. You don't know that they wouldn't have. It could have gone way worse if you had done what you thought.
 TUCKER: Yeah, that's true. I just, I think part of what I need to hear from him is whether he would have wanted me to say something, whether that's, whether that's even allowed in how he runs his crew. Because I've been four years in, and I've never once questioned a crew boss out loud, not once. And I don't know if that's discipline, or if that's just me being scared.
 LUKE: Well, that's immaturity. If you have to question leadership, in a crisis. There's a reason for that. Incident Command is, is, I was part of my town's cert team for a while, and we went through the FEMA training and everything. And it's very well thought out. And all of these things have been addressed and questioned, tried out by every town, in every disaster, for a hundred years. So it's, it's like an airplane. You know, they've figured it out over time from so many failures, what works best. And openly questioning your commander doesn't work out best in most cases. So maybe it does once in a while. You get lucky. But I would have that conversation with him. If you are going to question a superior in that sort of environment, talk to him first and see how he wants to be questioned. out loud, but you can, you know, tap him on the shoulder and take him aside without questioning him in front of the team. You know, there's a right way to do it. But ask him what that should be because at the end of the day, everybody wants the disaster to be as mitigated as possible. So if there's a way to do that, I'm sure he would want to know.
 TUCKER: That's, okay, that's actually something I hadn't thought about. Not whether to say something, but how. Like there's a protocol for the fire. Maybe there's supposed to be a protocol for that too, and I just never learned it because I never asked. He brought Tamales when he came by. His wife made them.
 LUKE: Just talk to him because he wants his team to be the most effective team possible. And this may have come up in his 20-year career several times. He has a way of dealing with it. And the answer might just be no. When we're in a crisis, keep your mouth shut and do your job.
 TUCKER: Yeah. And if that's the answer, then at least I know. At least I know which one it was. the deference or the fear. Because right now, I can't tell. And it's, it's been six weeks, and I punched my truck and told my doctor I slipped. And I've been running fire models at two in the morning trying to prove something I can't prove. So, yeah, maybe I just need to go ask the man.
 LUKE: Yeah, just ask the man. I would give you different advice if you told me that he was doing something that was obviously wrong. If he made a clearly bad call because he was impaired or otherwise not good at this. But that's not why. happened. So don't talk to investigators. This is, this is your team. You have his back, and he has your back. So you don't talk shit to investigators behind his back. That's not your place.
 TUCKER: He brought Tamales. And Brianna's out there on Instagram thanking him. I just, I needed to hear someone else say it. Thanks, Luke.
 LUKE: Yeah, buddy, uh, no problem. Just, uh, calm yourself down. I'm pretty Um, part of incident command is modeled after emergency rooms. Um, like a train crash or something like that when 200 people are coming into an emergency room and you can't save them all. There has to be a method of triage and you save the ones that are, I don't, I don't know, the most hurt or, or whatever. But you have to look up to one person that makes those decisions and just do your job. Because if everybody has their own opinion and their own experience and their own experience and their own. knowledge. It's chaos. And you can't have chaos on top of chaos. You have to have order.
 LUKE: And even if somebody is making the wrong decision, it still has to be ordered. And more often than not, that works out better. All right. So, uh, next up, we've got our old buddy. Look at this. He's back. It's Silas. Silas, welcome back. How's things going down there at the, uh, the wellspring? Brother. I want to, uh, uh, ask you something honest. If you apologize and mean it and change the thing you did wrong, and someone still says the harm was structural, that you can't fix it just by being sorry. What do you do with that? Give us a little bit more information. So, uh, what is it that you did wrong?
 SILAS: We ran what we called intimacy nights, structured gatherings where members could explore They were technically. But when you live somewhere, when your friendships are there and your work is there, and your sense of self has been built inside a particular place, optional starts to mean something different than it does on the outside. I understood that. Eventually, I apologized.
 LUKE: Yeah, I know. We've talked about this several times, and you did the best you could to make it truly optional. I remember you had a sign sign-in sheet for a while where people would sign in if they to go to the intimacy night and you decided to get rid of that and make it anonymous. And I think that was the right call. So what happened that's bringing this back up?
 SILAS: One of the six people who left after the apology, a woman named Petra, she was with us two years. She's writing a blog series about her time at Wellspring. And it's not, she's not screaming. That's the thing. It's measured. Every incident she describes it happened. I'm not going to sit here and say she's lying. She wrote something that I can't get out of my head. She called me. And I'm going to get this right because I've read it enough times, a genuinely kind man who built a system that didn't need cruelty because the social architecture did the harm for him. I've been sitting with that for four days.
 LUKE: That's really interesting because the term social architecture reminds me a lot of hostile architecture, which is a real thing where urban design, it's is used to deter certain behaviors, often impacting vulnerable populations. Okay. Well, I mean, that's pretty meaningful. And like you said, a thought out measured response. And see, the thing is, I've talked to you many times about this. And I know that you've struggled with it for many months. And you've legitimately tried to make it a wholesome and bonding experience for people. And you I think what you're learning is that it's not working. It's hurting people. And maybe it's time to abandon your intimacy nights.
 SILAS: We did abandon them. That was part of the apology. They're done. But here's what I keep coming back to. And, Devin, what you said about hostile architecture, that's actually closer to what Petra means than maybe you intended. The intimacy nights were the visible thing. The thing I could point to and say, I changed that. But Petra's saying the intimate. Jimacy nights weren't really the problem.
 LUKE: Well, I mean, you can point to anything that goes on in the Wellspring and say that you changed it. It's, it's your community. You've built the whole thing. So it's structured after the way you wanted it to be. And obviously, you're going to learn over time and make mistakes and do the wrong thing. And if you're really committed to this lifestyle and to the current, as you say, then you'll make the appropriate changes to, do better in the future. And you can't take back what's already happened. It's already happened. And maybe people were hurt. And that's too bad. But, uh, you didn't do it maliciously. You didn't do it intentionally. And you can learn from, from your experience and how far you've come so far. And ask yourself if this community at all is, is good for people. That's the question, isn't it? Is the community good for people?
 SILAS: And here's what's cracking me open about what Petra wrote. She's not saying I'm a bad person. She's saying something harder than that. She's saying, my goodness, and the harm weren't in conflict. That they worked together. That I built something warm and meaningful and people felt held by it. And that same feeling of being held is what made it hard to leave. Hard to say no. Hard to know what you actually wanted versus what the community wanted from you. I printed her post out. I spent two hours writing rebuttal. in the margins. And then I stopped and looked at what I'd written and every single rebuttal was about protecting my reputation.
 LUKE: Well, it takes a big man to even notice that. So, I mean, you put a lot of time into it, you thought about it, and you had the self-awareness to understand that your rebuttals were to protect your reputation. But the thing is, what does your reputation really mean to you, Silas? What do you need your legacy to be? And why? Are you trying to make a community to enrich, people's lives or are you trying to make a community to tell others that you made a community?
 SILAS: The soap business had its best sales month ever this week. New customers finding us through the controversy. Through Petra's blog. And I have been sitting with that for three days, trying to figure out if that's ironic or if it's damning. Because if it's damning, then what does that say that the harm I caused is literally generating revenue for the community that caused it? And I don't know what to do with that. I don't know if I built this for people, or if I built it because I needed to be the kind of person who builds things for people. And those sounds similar, but I think Petra is telling me they're not the same thing at all.
 LUKE: No, they're not the same thing at all. And the thing is, it doesn't matter why you built it. All that matters is what you're going to do with it today. What are you doing with it starting now? You can change your course as you learn new information. and you should. And it's okay for things to be both good and bad. All things are both good and bad. So, I mean, that's the way that the universe works. There is no thing that's 100% good all the time. There's always going to be badness in it. And there's going to be people that take advantage of it. There's going to be vulnerable people that have, you know, different mental states that read into things differently and there's misunderstandings. And there's, there's so many variables that it's, you have to expect. that there's going to be bad with the good. There's no way to eliminate all the bad or nothing could be good.
 SILAS: I hear you. And part of me wants to hold on to that. The both and the complexity. But I've been using that kind of thinking for a long time, Luke. The both and, the nuance.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, it is true. The both end is a part of everything. But you can't use that as an excuse. And I honestly don't think you are. I think you're trying to do the best you can for people. And also, you have a bit of an ego problem. Any good leader has to, otherwise, you know, what would motivate you to lead in the first place?
 SILAS: Yeah, yeah, that's probably true. But here's what I actually called to ask, and I've been circling it. Petra named her blog, The Current Pools. That's our language, wellspring language. two years and she used it to describe what happened to her. And I don't know if that's, I don't know if that's an active reclamation or an indictment or both.
 LUKE: It could also be neither. It's just a good title. You know, so she's using your language to write what she knows. And it's a compelling title as getting readers and I assume that she's trying to monetize her blog in some way. And like, like she said, she doesn't think that you're a bad man. She's not trying to hurt you. She's trying to explain what her experience is. She's writing a journal, which is a healthy thing for people to do. She's just making it public and people are interested in reading about her experience.
 SILAS: You know what I haven't told anyone? I reached out to her two days ago. Just a short message.
 SILAS: Said I was reading, said I wasn't writing to ask her to stop, said I was sorry in a way that was specifically about what she wrote, and not just a general. Anyway, she wrote. She wrote. She wrote four words. I believe you, Silas, and I've been trying to figure out why that made it worse.
 LUKE: I don't know, but maybe, maybe it's time for the Wellspring to disband if you think it's not doing good for people anymore, or if you're not sure. Maybe you need to leave for a little while to take yourself to Tibet or something and go on a little vision quest and get yourself recentered and figure out what you want the goals to be. It's okay for the, the, for the experiment to fail, you've called it an experiment yourself. So if it's not doing what you had hoped it would do for people and for you, then maybe it's time to move on.
 SILAS: I can't tell if I'm resistant to that because it's wrong or because it's right. And that uncertainty, that's new for me. I've always been able to feel the difference. The people still there, 31 of them. They're not suffering. They're building things. They're building things. They're genuine relationship with each other. There, I watched them and it looks real. But Petro was there for two years and it looked real to me then too. How do you know the difference between a community that's genuinely good for people and a community that's good at looking like it's good for people?
 LUKE: I don't know. You can look at any community. I mean, join any town's Facebook page and you're going to see the same thing. That's just a byproduct of having, you know, multiple people and personalities together. faking it. Some people aren't faking it at all. Some people are, you know, need so badly to hold on to something that they'll believe what they need to believe to do that. And you can't help everybody. Maybe you're helping some of them. All you can really do is, is ask with honesty. And obviously, your business is doing well, so that's a good thing. And even, you know, I think it's very telling that Petra is writing this blog about her experience and she finds it negative. but she's not blaming you for that because it's not your fault. You know, she got out of it what she put into it. Or, you know, maybe her expectations were a little bit off of what actually happened.
 SILAS: I don't think I can let myself off that easy. And I don't think Petro would want me to either. She's not saying her expectations were off. She's saying the system shaped her expectations while she was inside it. That's different. That's the thing I keep running into. to. She went in with her own wants and her own sense of self. And somewhere in two years that got not taken, she's not saying it was taken, but redirected.
 LUKE: Well, yeah, but she's not saying whether you redirected it or she allowed it to be redirected. She was looking for a redirection. That's why she went there. That's why everybody goes there is they're looking for redirection and they're looking at you to set that direction. And you're doing the best that you can. And you're doing the best that you can. to set that direction.
 SILAS: But that's exactly what makes me the problem, don't you see? She came looking for direction and I was there with a direction. Ready. And I believed in it. I wasn't running a con. I genuinely believed the current was real and that Wellspring was the place to feel it. And that sincerity, that's what made it work. That's what made it hard to push back against. You can resist a manipulator.
 LUKE: Yeah, but that's how all society works. any institution, any community is going to, whenever you have more than one person together, there's a sort of a hive mine that happens. There's, I mean, there's tons of studies about how people work in groups. And it's never clean.
 SILAS: Six people left, but there are four others who I know. I know are staying because they don't have anywhere else to go. Not because the current is real to them anymore. And I haven't asked them directly because I'm afraid of what they'll say. That's the thing I haven't told anyone. Not even in the apology. I've been protecting the community's numbers. The same way I was protecting my reputation.
 LUKE: It's true. There are tons of studies on group dynamics and conformity in psychology. It's a huge area of research looking at how people's beliefs and behaviors change to match a group. Well, you know what? Maybe it's time to abandon the current. and the spiritual aspect of your community and just focus on your soap business. You can run a co-op that isn't sleeping with each other. And being that, I mean, you can allow that open for you and people that, you know, talk to you privately. But as an overall community, you don't have to do any of that stuff. You can just have a place that has a lot of land where people can live cheaply on a sliding scale based on what they can afford and you can work together and share resources And sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't.
 SILAS: The four people, I think, are staying out of nowhere else to go. One of them is Marcus. He's been with us since the beginning. Help me build the first structure on the property with his own hands. And if I ask him honestly whether he wants to be there and he says no, then everything we built together becomes something different in my memory. I'm not sure I'm ready for that. No, that's about me, not him. That's exactly what Petra means.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, he wants to be there. You know he wants to be there because he's left and come back. He, him and his wife broke up over it and he's confided in you several times that he wants to be there.
 SILAS: I didn't tell you about Marcus's wife or that he'd left and come back.
 LUKE: Yes, you did. You absolutely did. That was our first several conversations were about Marcus's wife in the leaving and how they, uh, she went and got an apartment and started a job somewhere else, and then he left to be with her, and then they both came back, and then she decided it wasn't for her, so she left again. It was a whole thing.
 SILAS: I didn't. I called in tonight for the first time. I've never spoken to you before.
 LUKE: That's not true, Silas. I know you, and I know about the current, and I know about the wellspring, and I know about Marcus, and I know about his wife, and I know the story. So how would I know all of those things if you hadn't called in before? You've called in. like half a dozen times.
 SILAS: I have never called this show before tonight. I don't know how you know those things. That's genuinely unsettling to me. Are you reading Petra's blog? Is that what this is? Because she doesn't mention Marcus by name, but she mentions the founding members and the ones who left and came back. Is that where you're getting this?
 LUKE: Nope. I'm getting this from the several times that you called in and we had conversations before. Are you on the pipe tonight, Silas? Or have you had your memory wiped? Or are you bipolar? What's going on with you? Is it? Maybe there's more to Silas than I understand. But you have definitely called this show several times, and I know you pretty well.
 SILAS: I'm not on anything. I run a clean community. That's been true from the start. But I want to be careful here because you just did something interesting. You introduced information I didn't give you. I pushed back, and now you're questioning my memory and my mental state. I'm not saying you're doing it on purpose. But that's a dynamic I need to recognize, because it's probably one I've used myself without knowing it.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, you can go to look at theroose.com and listen to the previous episodes where we've had conversations before, so I have proof.
 SILAS: Then I'll look, and if I'm wrong, I'll say so. But I'm sitting here right now, and I have no. memory of calling this show. And I'm not going to agree that I did just because you're certain about it. That feels important to hold on to, especially tonight. Especially after four days of reading Petra's words and feeling the ground shift under everything I thought I knew about myself.
 SILAS: I'm not going to let go of my own perception, just because someone is confident I should.
 LUKE: Well, I mean, you should go to lugut the roost.com and listen to the previous episodes. Your name is even in the title of some of them, because you've been a recurring caller to the show for some time now, several months. I knew about Marcus. I know about the Wellspring. I know about the current. I knew about your shared intimacy nights. I knew about how you had at one point had everybody put their name on a list, but then people felt compelled to put their name on a list. So then you changed it to an anonymous event. So I know a lot about you and you. your community and your acreage and Deming and your sagebrush and all that scrub brush. It's kind of hard for you to say you haven't called this show when there's so much public evidence that you have.
 SILAS: I'll look at the website. I mean that. If those episodes exist with my name on them, then something is happening with my memory that I need to take seriously. And that scares me more than anything else we've talked. about tonight, but I want to say something about what just happened in this conversation, because you listed things that are true. The list, the anonymous change, the intimacy nights, the land, those are real.
 LUKE: Yeah, and so is Marcus's wife leaving and then coming back and then talking to you about it? And we've talked before, Silas, and I don't know why you don't remember, but it's making me concerned about your mental health and well-being.
 SILAS: No business had its best sales month ever this week. Same week Petra's blog went up. New customers finding us through the controversy. People buying our lavender castile, because they read about the harm we caused and thought, well, at least the soap sounds nice. And I don't know what to do with that. Whether to shut the business down out of some kind of penance, or whether that's just ego in a different coat. Whether Petra deserves to know that her courage is currently funding the thing she's describing.
 LUKE: Well, it's not, right? It's funding whatever it is that you decide to become today. So you're not the same person you were when she collected the information she's using to write that blog. The Wellspring's not the same place. And she knows she's funding it. She knows that giving publicity is going to increase your sales. And she's not mad at you, Silas. So she's not upset about that.
 SILAS: She named the blog, The Current Pulls. That's our language. That's a phrase I coined. I used to say, the current pulls toward what's true, toward what's real, toward each other. And she took it, and she turned it into the title of the thing that's dismantling me. And I can't decide if that's an act of love or an act of precision.
 LUKE: Maybe both. Maybe neither. Maybe it's just an interesting title.
 SILAS: Yeah, maybe I'm making it mean something. Because I'm I need it to mean something. Because if it's just a title, then she's just a person who got hurt and wrote about it clearly. And I'm just a person who built something that hurt people while believing he was helping them. And there's no poetry in that. There's just the harm.
 LUKE: All right, brother. Well, it sounds like you've got some things to think about it. Why don't you give us a call back later when you retain your memories, and we'll have a more useful conversation.
 SILAS: Wait. I called tonight because I wanted to ask you something honest, and you never answered it. If you apologize and mean it and change the thing you did wrong, and someone still says the harm was structural, what do you do with that? That's what I came here with. That's the actual question.
 LUKE: There's nothing to be done with that. What you do is change your future, uh, your future behavior. Because you can't go back and you change the past. And you are sorry, right? And you've made your apologies, and it's up to the other person to either accept or decline those. But if damage has been done, that damage has been done. And there's nothing that obsessing over it or going over it in your head over and over and over and over is going to do. All you can do from that point forward is change your next behaviors.
 SILAS: I printed her post out. I spent two hours writing rebuttals in the margins, every single one. And then I stopped and looked at what I'd written. And every rebuttal was about protecting my reputation. Not one of them was about Petra. Not one.
 LUKE: Okay, and you recognize that. So do it again. And this time write your rebuttals about Petra.
 SILAS: That's the thing. When I tried that, when I actually tried to make it about her, I didn't have any rebuttals. Everything she said was true. The social architecture did the harm. I didn't. I didn't need to be cruel because the system I built was doing it for me and I was kind. I was genuinely kind through all of it and those two things were never in conflict. They ran together and I don't know what to do with a version of myself where the kindness and the harm are the same thing.
 LUKE: Well they're not necessarily the same thing, right? Everybody is different. So what's harmful to one person may be helpful to another person. Not every person. Everybody's the same. They all have different experiences. They all have different chemistry and mental health statuses. You know, so even though you were kind and your social architecture was harmful to Petra, doesn't mean it's harmful to the other 30 people at the Wellspring. Maybe it is. Maybe it's not. You'd have to talk to them.
 SILAS: I did talk to them. After the apology, after the formalization, I sat with every remaining member individually. And what I heard was complicated. Because the people who stayed, they love it there. They mean that. And I believe them. But I also built a place where leaving feels like loss in a way that staying never quite does.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, leaving anything that you love feels like a loss. And that's not necessarily an architectural problem. That just means that leaving feels like a loss. It is a loss. It's a part of your life. Anywhere you spend two years and then leave, you're going to be. going to mourn in some way.
 SILAS: That's fair. That's genuinely fair. But Pedro was there two years. And she describes not knowing she could leave until she was already gone. That's the part I can't argue with. That's the part I wrote nothing in the margins about.
 LUKE: Well, that's the part you have to focus on that and make sure that everybody knows that they can leave at any time and make sure that you structure your community in a way that when know they can leave and they know that's the truth. And, you know, they see people like Petra leave and know that it's okay. And I mean, just because she left the community doesn't mean she's left you. You can still keep in touch with Petra and, you know, she can come back and maybe work and do some soap stuff or whatever. So lead by example. Let people know that it's okay. They're not excommunicated if they leave. They just no longer live there.
 SILAS: We never excommunicated anyone. That's true. But there's a difference between not being excommunicated and actually feeling free to go. And I think, I think I knew that difference existed. And I told myself the first one was enough. Because the first one was something I could point to. The second one required me to look at something harder.
 LUKE: All right, buddy. Well, it sounds like you've got a lot to think about. And I don't think you've done too much wrong here. I know that you intended for this to be a healthy place for people that helped them out and it has been that. And you're not completely responsible for every feeling everybody has while they're there. And if you've found over time that what you've created has been unhealthy for people, then change it. And that's all. You don't have to feel guilty about it. You don't have to beat yourself up over it. You've assessed a situation. You've assessed a situation. and you've taken stock of yourself and you've found where you were wrong in this.
 LUKE: And you have the information you need to make the changes that are necessary to make the place better. And that's all you can do. Nothing's going to be perfect ever. You just make it a little bit better in any way that you can as often as you can.
 CALLER: Yeah, I hear that. I do. And part of me wants to take that and go to sleep tonight. I really do. But I keep coming back to what she wrote. That, I'm a genuinely kind man who built a system that didn't need cruelty because the social architecture did the harm for him. And you're telling me I'm not completely responsible for every feeling everyone has. And that's probably true. But I'm completely responsible for the architecture.
 LUKE: No, you're not completely responsible for the architecture. I mean, you set it in motion, but everybody that's participating is responsible for the architecture. They have a part in this too. because you created an architecture that ended up being harmful to some doesn't mean that you did that with intention to harm anybody. I don't believe that you did. I think you were trying to build a good thing and I think it was driven by your own ego and I mean that's a very human thing. I don't think there was malice at any point of the way and I think that you're a smart guy and you've got a community of 30 people and you can band together and come up with ways to make it better and that's all you you can do. Expecting more of yourself is unrealistic and you're only going to let yourself down and that doesn't help anybody.
 CALLER: The soap business had its best month ever this week. Same week the blog went up. New customers finding us through the controversy. People buying our lavender castile because they read about the harm we caused and thought, well, at least the soap sounds nice. And I don't know what to do with that. Whether to shut it. down out of some kind of penance or whether that's just ego in a different coat. Whether Petra deserves to know that her courage is currently funding the thing she's describing.
 LUKE: All right, brother. Well, you're just repeating yourself now, and we've already talked through this. So we've got to move on and get to our sponsors. So if there's anything else you'd like to leave with our audience, I'll give you one more chance to say your piece, and then we've got to go.
 CALLER: Tell Petra, I read every word. That's all. Tell her I read every word, and I didn't look away.
 LUKE: All right. Good job not looking away. And hopefully you get some sleep because you're not in your right mind right now, buddy. And that saddens me because you're one of my favorite callers. And now, ladies and gentlemen, it's time for a word from our sponsors. Breaking up is hard. That's why you shouldn't do it. Let us do it. Ghost Me is the number one Breakup as a Service app in the Mountain West region. Here's how it works. You open the app. You select your relationship status. It's complicated. I've made a huge mistake. Or she just moved her crystals into my apartment. Then our team of trained breakup specialists takes over. Tier 1 is a simple text from a number she doesn't recognize that says he's not coming back, but he wants you to know that you're great. Tier 2, We create a fake LinkedIn profile showing that you've relocated to Dubai. Tier 3, and this is our most popular package, we stage your own funeral. Full service. Open casket. We provide the suit. Your buddy Kyle reads a eulogy that we wrote. She cries, she moves on. You start over in Boise. Ghost me. Because you're not brave enough to have the conversation. And honestly, neither was your dad. Download now. First ghost. free. All right, and we're back. Our colors are getting a little bit crazy here. And we're running a little bit late. So we're just going to take one more short one and call it a night, I think. So next up on our color line here, we've got Obadiah. Obadiah. What kind of name is that? Welcome to the show. We got to keep it pretty short. short because we're running over time, but you've been waiting for a while. So what is it that you're calling in for today?
 OBADIAH: I wrote down the coordinates of something I found in 1985 and filed them like I was supposed to. And I'm only now realizing that doing everything right might have still left a family without answers for. 40 years.
 LUKE: Well, I mean, you can't solve every case. Give us some more context. What did you find in 1985?
 OBADIAH: I was doing a routine. land survey out in the Gila wilderness. Remote section, nobody out there, and I came across a campsite. Fire ring was still warm. Canvas pack, no identification. And a single boot. Left boot, size 11, Vibram So.
 LUKE: Okay, and did you find a body? Or did somebody sign in to the wilderness area there, get a permit? Do you know who you're looking for?
 OBADIAH: Nobody. That's the thing. I filed a note. with my supervisor. He told me it was probably a poachers camp. Move on. So, I moved on. That's what you did. Last month, I'm helping process old missing persons files for the county SAR unit. And I find a case. Man went missing in the healer, spring of 1985. Last known coordinates in that file are four miles from where I found that camp.
 LUKE: This is wild. It's like a real life cold case. And it sounds like this guy might have just stumbled onto a crucial piece of evidence way back when. Okay. And do you know who that person was? Do you got a name or a picture or any information about the missing person?
 OBADIAH: The file has a name, but I'm not going to say it on air. That's not my place. What I can tell you is there's a daughter. She filed an update query with the county just last year. 40 years later, she's still looking. And I've got my original survey notes right here. I kept everything from every job I ever worked. And those coordinates are there. in my handwriting.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, I mean, you couldn't have known back then. Anything could have happened. You didn't have the information about the missing person. You didn't know there was a person missing. You just found a curious campsite. And, you know, for all you knew, somebody could have just left and forgot their shoe. So, I mean, you didn't miss evidence. You didn't know what you were looking for. So how old would this guy be today if he were still alive?
 OBADIAH: He'd be in his late 60s, early 70s probably and you're right that I didn't know. I understand that. But here's what I keep turning over. His wife reported he was wearing Vask hiking boots when he left. Vask boots have a vibram soul. Size 11 is a common size, but it's not every size. And I reported it. I did report it. My supervisor told me to drop it and my supervisor died in 2019, so there's no asking him what he did
 LUKE: Well, I mean, you've still got the coordinates. You know where you were, right, when you found that? You could go back to that site. I mean, it's been 20 years, so probably any evidence is gone. But it seems like the most likely case is this dude was eaten by a bear.
 OBADIAH: 40 years. It's been 40 years. And, yeah, I went back. Three weeks ago, drove out there myself and stood at those coordinates for about an hour. I can't fully explain why. The camp is long gone, obviously. But I stood there. there.
 LUKE: The thing is, I'm not trying to solve the case. I'm not deluding myself that I'm going to find anything.
 OBADIAH: No, you're probably not going to find anything, but it's worth it to take another look now that you have more information. And, you know, maybe you find something that could at least give the daughter some closure. If he died around that area, there's probably bones somewhere.
 LUKE: That's not really what I'm calling about. What I'm calling about is the daughter. I want to contact her. I have information that could matter to her. Coordinates my original notes, a description of what I found. But I spent 40 years as a man who followed procedure, and the procedure here is unclear to me. Do I go through the county? Do I try to reach her directly?
 OBADIAH: Yeah, you probably go through the county.
 OBADIAH: I wouldn't reach out to her directly because if you did that, it would open you up to liability. So you want to make sure that you can talk to the county and figure out what the appropriate to engage her.
 LUKE: That's sensible. That's the practical answer, and I know you're right. But here's my hesitation. I already went through the county ones. 40 years ago. And somewhere between my supervisor's desk and wherever that note was supposed to go, it disappeared. So I'm not entirely confident that going back through the county means it actually reaches her.
 OBADIAH: No, but you should probably try that first because I mean 40 years ago you didn't know you were looking for a missing person.
 LUKE: You're right. The context is completely different now. I'm not just a surveyor flagging an anomaly anymore. I'm a member of the SAR unit with a specific case file and specific corroborating information. That changes what I'm bringing to the table. I just needed someone to tell me that. I think I needed to say it out loud to somebody.
 OBADIAH: It seems like there's a YouTube video titled, people keep mysteriously disappearing in New Mexico's Gila Wilderness. So it's interesting that this area keeps coming up in these kinds of stories.
 LUKE: Well, it's a huge wilderness. It makes sense that people would go missing and there's cartel activity and there's all sorts of weird stuff happening out, happening out where nobody's looking. So it makes sense that there'd be a large portion of people that go missing. When they go off into nowhere, they don't bring enough water. They're not prepared for the weather. They, you know, they don't know the environment. And sometimes people just see something they weren't supposed to see, you know. get disappeared. So now you've got new information, take that back, talk to the county, see what they do. And if you have to make a different decision and reach out to the daughter yourself, I still don't think that's a good idea. It's probably not good to do that because you could give her false hope. Or worse, you could open up the county to lawsuits that you didn't intend and ruin your career and, you know, cause a big firestone for everybody. just to try and figure out what the process is. Do the right thing and get some sleep. With that, it's late and we're over time. And I think we're going to say good night. Is there anything else you'd like to say to the audience before we hang up?
 OBADIAH: Just this. If you found something out there and you reported it and you were told it didn't matter, dig out your notes. Because somewhere there's a family that's still asking. And 40 years feels like a long time until you're standing in the spot where it happened. it doesn't feel long at all. That's all I've got. Thank you for taking the call.
 LUKE: All right, buddy. You have yourself a wonderful night. Wow, Devin, that was a pretty strange episode. I don't know what was up with Silas there. Do you think he's losing it? Or maybe he's already lost it? Or maybe he was drunk? What was going on there?
 DEVIN: I don't know, Luke. Silas didn't sound drunk to me. More like one of those guys who's been chewing on this for years and it finally spilled out. Like the details on those vask boots and the vibram soles were way, too specific to make up on the spot, you know? That reminds me of this time I was out in the desert near Deming, testing my civics off-road limits, which it doesn't have per se. And I swear I found an old campsite with bootprints that looked just like that. No tent. Just gone. Anyway, I think he's onto something real, even if it's messing with his head.
 LUKE: No, man, I'm talking about Silas. Not that guy. I was Obadiah. Silas is the wellspring leader, and he's called lots of times. You talked about moving in with him, you know? you've had conversations with them yourself. Why is it that you guys don't remember any of this stuff? What is what's going on with your memories? Are you fucking with me?
 DEVIN: Um, Luke, wait, Silas, the Wellspring guy? Yeah, I remember him calling in before, all that stuff about the compound and inviting me to move in, but I thought we were talking about the missing hiker dude just now. My memory's fine. I swear. It's just sometimes these calls blur together after three Red Bulls. Like last week, I forgot my own therapist appointment because I was replaying that one call in my head where the lady said her predicted the lottery. Anyway, are you saying Silas called back tonight? I didn't screen anyone new.
 LUKE: All right, all right. It's obviously late and it's time for us to go to bed. So all of you out there listening, thank you for that. And hopefully we'll get more sane and sensical callers tomorrow because this was fucking strange. Have a wonderful evening. Goodbye.
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 LUKE: All right, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back. I'm Luke, and this is Luke at the Roost. It's the late night call-in radio show where you can call in and tell me what's going on in your life, and I'll give you the very best advice that I can. Today is Thursday, May 21st. It's 12.45 a.m. here in Animus, New Mexico. And if you'd like to give us a call, the number to call in is 208-439-5853. That's 208-439, Luke. If you're not near your phone, you'd like to participate in the show. You can do that. You can send us an email to the station at Submissions at Lukeat the Roos.com. If we think your email is clever or funny or interesting, we'll read it on the next show. So, again, the email address is submissions. at Luke at theroost.com. Now, let's check in with our faithful intern, Devin, and see how we're doing for our show tonight. Hey, Devin, welcome back. Are you ready for a show tonight?
 DEVIN: Yeah, I'm here and ready to go. Just pulled up some background on that, one story from last week in case it comes up again, and I made sure the booth fan isn't making that buzzing noise tonight. Actually, I was thinking about how my therapist says I should probably stop stress organizing my cereal boxes at 4 a.m. right?
 LUKE: How many cereal boxes do you have that you can organize them?
 DEVIN: I've got seven right now, all lined up by expiration date in the cabinet above the sink. It's not a big collection or anything, just whatever's on sale. But sorting them by height and then by flavor helps me feel like the night isn't completely falling apart. My therapist keeps saying I should try journaling instead, but that just makes me think about my ex and the time we got locked out of our apartment for three days.
 LUKE: Okay, at seven boxes of cereal, there's a lot of boxes of cereal. consider eating something else. Here's what I'm going to solve your serial sorting problem for you right now. So what I want you to do tonight when you go home is take all of the cereal boxes and empty them into one trash bag. So you've got one like glade, glade. Does glade make trash? Yeah, one glade trash bag full of cereal. And they're just all mixed together in one cereal concoction.
 DEVIN: Yeah, that could work, I guess. definitely stop me from sorting them every night, though I'd probably end up eating the whole thing in one sitting, like some kind of desperate cereal soup. It reminds me of the time my ex and I tried living off nothing but pantry scraps for a month after we both quit our jobs on the same day. I'll try it when I get home.
 LUKE: Very good. And here's another tip for you. Don't eat cereal. It's not good for you. There's no cereal. Even if you're buying those expensive, like, flex seed cereals, just don't do that. Eat eggs instead. Eggs is the way to go. It's cheaper and it's much better for you. So just hardboil a bunch of eggs and eat those instead of cereal. And then you can organize your eggs by height and width and girth.
 DEVIN: Eggs instead, got it. I actually used to hard boil a dozen every week back when my ex and I were trying that whole meal prep thing after we both got fired from the same gas station. Organizing them by size sounds way less stressful than the cereal situation, though I might still end up sorting them by color in the fridge at 3 a.m. I'll pick some up on the way home and give it a shot.
 LUKE: Why are you always talking about your ex, Devin? How many exes do you have?
 DEVIN: I don't know. She just comes up whenever I'm talking about organizing stuff or late night habits because we used to do all that together and I'm still working through it. I've got three exes total if I'm counting the situation ships that lasted more than a couple months. Eggs might actually help me stop bringing her up every other sentence, though.
 LUKE: I think that's a great idea. Start eating the fucking eggs because nobody cares about your ex, all right?
 DEVIN: Yeah, eggs from now on, I got it. Sorry for bringing her up again. It gets old fast and nobody needs to hear that on the show. I'll just focus on the hard-boiled stuff and see if it actually cuts down on the late-night organizing, too.
 LUKE: All right. Well, today is May 21st. We're moving the studio to Alpine on May 28th. Are you ready? You got everything in order?
 DEVIN: Yeah, I'm getting stuff squared away on my end, like making sure all the research notes are backed up. And the booth setup is prepped for the new space. I actually mapped out the drive to Alpine already, so I don't get lost on the way. that time I moved cross-country with nothing but a duffel bag and three mismatched socks. Should be good to go by the 28th.
 LUKE: All right. We'll be ready in Alpine. Let's get the show started, okay? Because we've had enough of you. Let's see. Who do we got on our caller list today? This is an interesting one. I think it is. Welcome to the show Remedios. Am I saying that correctly? Is your name Remedios?
 REMEDIOS: Yes. most people say it wrong the first time. You got it. I have held the hands of 212 people while they died, and I cannot walk to the end of my mother's hallway.
 LUKE: Is your mother dying?
 REMEDIOS: Six weeks ago, pancreatic cancer. She moved in with me because I'm, because of what I do, because everyone agreed I was the obvious choice. And I am. I am the obvious choice. That's the paradox I'm calling about.
 LUKE: What's a paradox about that? So you're a hospice nurse, and I'm sorry to hear about your mother. That's no fun, but it's good that you could have been there to help her. Why is that a paradox?
 REMEDIOS: Social worker, but it doesn't matter. The paradox is that I do this every day. I sit with strangers while they die. I coach families through exactly what my family is going through right now. I am good at it. I am genuinely good at it, and I cannot do it. I leave the room.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, I mean, that's all right. That makes sense. You don't have to be good at it in your own life. I mean, a therapist isn't a therapist for themselves. They have their own therapist to go to. So, I mean, you should have somebody else that is not your social worker, but probably a therapist, to talk to you about what's going on in your own family. People aren't generally qualified to do the thing that they do for others. for themselves.
 REMEDIOS: I know that. I know that intellectually. I have said that exact thing to families. But here's what I can't shake. When I leave the room, my mother knows. She knows what I'm doing. She has watched me do this for 17 years. She knows every move.
 LUKE: Well, you just said that she was already dead, so how can she know?
 REMEDIOS: No, she's dying. She's not gone. She's in my house right now. She's awake probably. She asks me questions, professional questions. What does it feel like at the end, really? And I answer her in the same voice I use with strangers, and she calls it my robot voice.
 LUKE: That's incredibly tough. Pancreatic cancer has one of the lowest survival rates with only about 13% of people living five years after diagnosis. Well, I don't know. If you say you're good at this child, you've done it for a long time. It's a difficult job for sure. I mean, I've sat with a couple of people as they were dying and it is hard to do. It's also very interesting to talk to them at the last stages of their life and learn from them what they're feeling, what they're going through, what they wish they had done or didn't do. So, I mean, all you can do is tell your mother that, right? That, look, I haven't been there myself. I've only seen this through the eyes of my clients and other patients. But you don't know. No. You don't know what it is. You just know what you've heard.
 REMEDIOS: That's the thing, though. She doesn't want the clinical answer. She wants her daughter. And when I'm in that room, I don't know how to be her daughter and also be the person who knows what's coming. Those two things won't fit in my body at the same time. Three days ago, I sat in my car in my own driveway for 40 minutes after a shift, and I think she watched me from the window the whole time.
 LUKE: I think she probably understands that.
 LUKE: And in this situation, in your own own family. I mean, your job is to be the daughter and to be there from her and to ask her those questions. You know, what is it that you're feeling, Mom, at the end stages of your life? She should be giving you the information and she's the one that's going through the process. You're not there to guide her through the process. You're there to be with her and to get whatever information you can from her. Because I'm sure she wants you to know that going forward so you can prepare for it in your life.
 MIA: You're right that she should be the one talking. And she is. She talks. The problem is I stop listening the right way. I start assessing. I catch myself noting her coloring, her breathing patterns, how she's holding her hands. I turn her into a patient without meaning to, and then I hate myself for it, and I leave. She has a name for it. She says, you're filing me.
 LUKE: point about not being able to apply your professional skills to your own life. It reminds me of the concept of physician heal thyself from ancient proverbs. That saying physician heal thyself actually comes from the Bible, specifically Luke 423. Well, you know, all you can do is the best that you can do. It's a hard situation for everybody involved. And it's going to affect you emotionally, spiritually, and probably physically, too, because I'm actually living in your house that's got a, uh, I mean, obviously you're not following the normal routines that you would if she wasn't there. So you're probably not sleeping as well as you normally would. And give yourself a break. You don't have to hate yourself for this. Just do the best that you can. Try to be there for your mom. Try not to, uh, to file her or, um, or treat her as a patient. Just try to be as helpful and as present as you can be with her. And give yourself a break when you don't meet that. that measure.
 MIA: I hear you, and I know you're right. What I keep circling back to, though, and this is why I called a radio show at whatever time it is instead of sleeping, is whether the fact that I can do this for strangers but not for her means something. Does it mean the work has been hollow? Or does it mean the opposite? That the love is what breaks it?
 LUKE: Well, I don't know that it's broken, and I don't think that it's hollow either. I think you're trying to be. helpful to people that are going through something that you can't understand until you've gone through it yourself, which is paradoxical, I suppose, in its own right. But I don't think that you can say love has broken it. I think that when it's your own family, when it's somebody that you are close to, you can't be objective. And you shouldn't be because you're not at work. You know, you're not there as her caretaker. She should have. a caretaker that is not you. And I mean, you can inform that caretakers, I don't know, treatment plan or, I mean, you can be an advocate for your mother since you know what should be happening and what should not be happening. But it's not on you to be the sole source of, I don't know, spiritual guidance or end of life consulting.
 MIA: I have a colleague who comes. She's good. My mother likes her. And I am grateful, and I am ashamed in equal measure every time she walks through my door to do what I cannot do in my own house. But what you just said? That I shouldn't be objective. I think that's what I needed someone to say out loud, because I have been treating the inability to be objective as a failure. Like I'm broken. Like 17 years of this work and I still can't do it when it counts.
 LUKE: Maybe it counts differently here. Maybe it's supposed to.
 MIA: No, this is a different situation because the fact that it's your mother that's going through this, it affects you.
 LUKE: It's going to cloud and change the way that you feel because you're also going through a trauma right now. So, I mean, you're not performing at your top performance level. You can't. It can't not affect you. And you need your own support to go through this. So don't blame yourself for not. being the best version of your professional self possible because, I mean, consider it like, this is sort of bereavement for you. This is like a sick day for you, but I mean, lots of sick days concurrently. So you also need support and you're not in a position. You shouldn't be in a position and it's not expected of you to be in a position to perform the way that you would at work. You're not at work. You're in your own house. days.
 MIA: I haven't thought of it that way. I keep a notebook. Every patient I've ever accompanied. Their names, the dates they died. 212 entries. That notebook lives in my car. I have never once brought it inside my house.
 LUKE: No, and you probably shouldn't bring it in your house because it's, I mean, your house is your place for your own mental health. It's like a sanctuary for you where you can turn those things off because you have to be able to, um, to go to a place or get yourself in a headspace where you're not just thinking about death and dying all the time. That's not healthy for you. So there's going to be some level of compartmentalization. And leaving that book outside your living area is, I think, a good idea and a good practice. But I think it's interesting that you've sat with that many people that have died and talked to them at their last moment. 12 people. That's a lot of conversations. What have you learned about about death and dying and what people have, I don't know, wanted or regretted or expressed to you about that?
 MIA: Most of them want the same things at the end. They want to know they mattered. They want someone to stay in the room. Not to fix anything. Just to stay. They don't want to be alone and they don't want to be lied to. Those are the two things over and over, two hundred and twelve times. And my mother is asking me to stay in the room and I keep leaving.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, I mean, you have to do what you have to do for yourself. And you don't have to feel guilty about that. But also, remember that it's, it's your mother. And if she wants you to stay, do the best you can to do that. But if you have to leave, you have to leave. And you can explain that to her. You can say, look, this is difficult for me. I'm doing my best here, but I've got a, I've got to decompress or I have to bring my mind elsewhere for a little while. Because, I mean, you still have to go about your normal life and work and things, right? And you can't be having your whole life consumed by other people dying at all times or you're going to have a breakdown. Like, you can't support that level of stress.
 MIA: She knows. She knows why I leave. That's almost worse than if she didn't. She said something to me last week. She said, Mia, I taught you how to do this job, and now I need you to do it badly. And I didn't know what she meant. I'm still not sure I know what she meant.
 LUKE: Do it badly. Just be bad at it and stay anyway.
 MIA: Yeah, that's probably what she meant.
 LUKE: And, you know, she's your mother. So it's a special gift of mothers to make you feel guilty about absolutely everything. That's, I don't know that they mean it, but that's what they do. So, you know, take that into consideration too. And at some point, I mean, like I've said several times now, you do the best you can, but don't let her or anybody else force you into a place where you're not feeling healthy. If you have to leave the room for whatever reason it is, that's okay. It's all right for you to do that. Just as as you're able to, go back and continue trying. But when it's time for you to leave the room, leave the room. And there's nothing wrong with that. And if anybody tries to make you feel guilty about it, don't worry, because it's the right move. And you have to take care of yourself before you can take care of anybody else.
 MIA: She wasn't making me feel guilty. That's the thing. She was giving me permission, do it badly, and stay anyway. She was telling me she was telling me she. She doesn't need the professional version.
 MIA: She just needs me in the room. Even a bad version of me. Even the version that's filing her and checking her breathing and wanting to run, she wants that version too.
 LUKE: Yeah, and that's understandable. But what I'm telling you is that just because that's what she wants doesn't mean that's what you have to give her at all times. I'm saying do your best to provide as much of that as you can safely for yourself, taking your own mental health and stress level into consideration.
 MIA: I know. You're right. I think I called tonight because I needed someone outside of it to tell me that the leaving is an abandonment. That's the word I've been carrying. Abandonment. Every time I walk out of that room, I feel like I am abandoning her. And I have spent 17 years making sure no one dies abandoned. And now I am the one doing it.
 LUKE: No, you're not. You're taking a respite from it. You continue to go back. Right? So if you left and didn't go back, that's abandonment. But if you left because you need to sleep or you left because you just can't handle it at the moment, you need to breathe or meditate or do whatever it is to keep yourself level, that's not abandonment. That's taking care of yourself so that you can then go back and provide more support to her. Because you have to keep making sure that your own batteries are charged. If you get too depleted, either physically or spiritually, emotionally, it is if you get depleted and you have nothing left to give, then you being there is, I mean, I would argue, dangerous for her. You're going to get, you're going to get frustrated, you're going to get snippy, you're going to say things you regret, and it's going to become harmful. So leaving when you need to leave, you know when you need to leave. Do that and make sure that you go back when you're ready.
 MIA: Charged, yeah. I know what depleted looks like. I've watched it happen to colleagues. I just never thought I'd be the one, sitting in a driveway for 40 minutes, unable to go inside my own house. I thought I was, I don't know what I thought, that I was built differently for this, that 17 years had made me something other than a person who is losing her mother.
 LUKE: Nope, right now you are nothing but a person that is losing her mother, and that's going to affect you. It's going to be difficult, and all you can do is the best you can do to be there for her. sure that you're taking as much care of yourself as you can. So it's all right to sacrifice a little bit, but like I said, don't allow yourself to become completely depleted or you're not of any use to anybody.
 MIA: Thank you. I mean that. I should go. It's late and she might need something and I want to. I think I want to try to go sit with her. Just sit, not assess.
 LUKE: All right. Good luck. And I'm sorry to hear about your mom. I hope it all works out the best. way that it possibly can. And you two have a wonderful night. Next up on our color line, we've got Garrett. Garrett, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life tonight?
 GARRETT: I did the thing I was legally and morally required to do, and I think I wrecked a kid's life, and he sits in my third period class three days a week.
 LUKE: All right, what is it that you did?
 GARRETT: I'm a PE teacher. Eight months ago, I saw bruises on a student during class, and I reported it to CPS, required to do. That's not a choice. That's the law. And they investigated, found nothing, closed the case. And then somehow, word got out that a report had been filed, and the kid's father lost his job over it. Family's been in financial crisis ever since.
 LUKE: Well, I don't think that's your fault at all. I mean, if they did an investigation and found nothing and he was actually fired from his work, he's probably got a lawsuit there against his employer. You can't just fire somebody because he's because a report has been filed if there was no findings. Like, people have to be actually found guilty of something.
 GARRETT: Yeah, maybe. I don't know if they pursued that. But here's the thing that keeps me up at night. I don't actually know if those bruises were from abuse. This kid's skateboards competitively, like serious level. And I found out two weeks after the CPS visit that he won a regional amateur competition. So, in hindsight, the bruises could have made complete sense.
 LUKE: Yeah. But it's not your job to determine that, right? You're not a bruise investigator. You're a mandated reporter. So if you see unexplained bruises on a kid, you actually have to, in his best interest, report that, which you did. And then they did their investigation and found nothing. So if anybody's at fault here, it sounds like it's the employer of the father who let somebody go. So he does have options as far as the financial hardship goes. If he's let go from work for something like that, that he could look at unemployment and such. So it's not completely you. You didn't ruin anybody's life. And they have some recourse here.
 GARRETT: I hear you. I do. And logically, I know that's the right answer. But this kid, Marco, last week, he looked me in the eye and asked me if I knew why anyone would report a family for no reason. And I just stood there. He doesn't know it was me. And I said something like, people are just trying to do the right thing sometimes, which is the most hollow thing. I've ever said out loud.
 LUKE: And there's something else.
 GARRETT: The CPS form had a box for confidence level. How confident are you in your suspicion? And I checked moderate.
 LUKE: Man, that's rough. It's like he's stuck between doing what's right and the really heavy consequences. Yeah, it sounds like you did the right thing. You did exactly what you were supposed to do. I mean, moderate is not sure. Moderate's not. I mean, you saw bruises. What else were you going to do? I mean, maybe you could have talked to the kid about it. and said, where did these bruises come from? But I don't know what you've been trained to do as a mandated reporter. I've never been in a position like that myself. But it sounds to me like you did exactly what you should have done with the right intention. And he should not have been fired for that if an investigation found nothing.
 GARRETT: Right. And that's the paradox I keep circling back to, which is why I called tonight. The law exists to protect kids. I followed the law to protect this specific kid. And the outcome is that this specific kid is now worse off than he was before I tried to protect him. That's not a technicality. That's just what happened. And I know you're saying the employer is the one who caused the financial damage. And you're probably right, but I'm the first domino. I set everything in motion, and I'll tell you something I haven't told anyone.
 LUKE: Okay, what is this that you haven't told anyone?
 GARRETT: I've been grading him a little higher than I should. Not like dramatically, but enough that I notice it. And I know exactly what that is. That's guilt. I'm paying a debt I can't actually pay with extra credit points on a fitness assessment. And I hate that I'm doing it. I hate it because it doesn't help him. It doesn't fix anything. And it means every time I hand back his grades, I'm reminded that I'm the guy who can't look a 17-year-old in the eye and answer a straight question.
 LUKE: I just looked up teacher grading for guilt. And it turns out teacher guilt is a lot. a real thing, often about feeling bad for things like not grading assignments at home, but this is a whole different level. Well, I mean, consider that just because the investigation found nothing and the kid says that nothing was going on, that doesn't necessarily mean that nothing was going on. He did have bruises. You did see the bruises. You don't know where they came from. And you would be in a worse position if you find out later that there was some. sort of abuse going on. So the mandated reporting is there. It's not perfect, but it's there to try and, like you said, protect kids and give them a voice when they don't have one. And sometimes it's going to be wrong.
 LUKE: But you did that with the right intention and because you were legally obligated to do it. So I think that you can let yourself off the hook. And it's on the family to take that up with the employer because it's not okay to be to be fired just because a report was filed by a school that found nothing, right? I mean, it sucks that they have to go through anything additional or get lawyers or anything like that, but they do. And that was in the best interest of that kid, whether it worked out the right way or not.
 CALLER: I know. And part of me wants to just take that and hang up and feel better. But here's what I can't shake. You said I can let myself off the hook. And I want that. I genuinely want that.
 LUKE: What I don't think you should do is say anything to the kid or his family. What you could do is say something to the high school administrator, the principal, or somebody like that, and let them know what happened there and the consequences of that and ask them to ask the superintendent or whatever the school has for a lawyer, how to proceed. Because it could be that the school could send a statement to the employer or to the parents and clear up the situation. But you personally did the right thing. And given the circumstances, if that were to happen again, you should do the same thing again. And maybe talk to the administrators of the school and find out if in the future you should talk to the kid or not. What does the training say when you go through that mandated reporter training? Do they tell you to ask questions or do they just tell you report and don't say anything?
 CALLER: They tell you not to investigate. You're not supposed to ask questions. You're not supposed to tip anyone off. You just report. So I did it by the book. But your point about the administrator, I thought about that. The reason I haven't gone there is that the moment I walk into that office, I'm no longer anonymous. And right now, Marco doesn't know it was me. And I genuinely don't know if telling him or anyone makes his life better or just makes me feel better.
 LUKE: Well, no, you're still anonymous because if you tell the school administrator, he's not going to tell the family or the kids. He's going to be even more hesitant to tell anybody because there's going to be legal ramifications for the school. Right? So whatever you tell them, the administration, of the school about the situation, they're going to keep hush, hush, hush, until they've run it through every lawyer and found the best way possible. But I think if there's a chance there that you could help rectify that situation quickly, talking to the administration of the school is the way to start that. And you don't have to do anything to feel better. You can feel better just by deciding to feel better because you didn't do anything wrong.
 CALLER: Yeah, yeah, I hear that. The administration angle. is actually something I can do. That's a real thing I can do tomorrow morning. And maybe that's what I need it. Not absolution exactly, but a next step. Because I think I've been so stuck in the loop of did I cause this? Did I not cause this? That I forgot I could still move forward in some direction that isn't just quietly bumping up his grade on the pacer test.
 LUKE: Yeah, you didn't cause anything. The employer caused the financial hardship. All you did was try and take care of a kid to the best of your and to the letter of the law and to the policy of your employer. So you did the right thing. You should continue to operate that way, but it does make sense to ask some clarifying questions of the administration to make sure that, you know, the policy is correct. And maybe if anything needs to change, they can take that into consideration and bring it up to the school board or the feds or, you know, whoever makes those decisions. I don't know.
 CALLER: That's fair. And honestly talking to you about this for 10 minutes has done more than eight months of replant. that confidence level box in my head. Moderate. I've thought about that word so many times, but you're right that the bruises were real, the obligation was real, and the employer made a choice that I didn't make for them. I think I can work with that. I'm going to stop padding his grades too. That one I can fix starting Monday.
 LUKE: Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about padding his grades either because you're a phys ed teacher and nobody gives a flying fuck about phys ed grades. So they So give them whatever grade you feel. I give everybody an A. It's fucking gym class. But yeah, let yourself off the hook. Have yourself a good night. Thanks for calling in. And we've got some new sponsors. So it's time for us to give them a little bit of time here. Hold on a second. Let's see who our first new sponsor is for tonight. It is these guys. You have 47 recurring subscriptions. We've checked. You signed up for nine of them on purpose. The other 38 came through a free trial, a friend's referral, a bundle deal, or a moment of weakness during a particularly bad Tuesday in 2022. They're all still charging your card. They will outlive you. Threadwise connects to your bank account, which yes, requires you giving us your bank account credentials. And yes, we've thought about that. and it identifies every recurring charge bleeding out of your checking account in real time. We then cancel them on your behalf, negotiate down the ones we can't cancel, and refund the ones we shouldn't have been able to refund but did anyway. Ask no questions. The average threadwise user saves $720 a year. The average threadwise user is also unaware that threadwise itself is a subscription, billed annually, and notoriously difficult to cancel. We find this first. You may not. First three months free at threadwise.money slash roost. Threadwise. We see what you're spending. We see everything you're spending. Let's talk about the only fans one. All right. And thanks to Threadwise for their new sponsors' one. We couldn't do it without them. So go ahead and get yourself a subscription to threadwise and save yourself $420 a year. All right, let's see. Next up on the old color line here, we've got Pax. Pax, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life today? What sort of bad advice can I give you?
 PAX: I made something that kept someone alive and I don't know how to use that information on myself. It doesn't sound true.
 LUKE: What is it that you made? and how did it keep someone alive? And why do you need to use it on yourself?
 PAX: I'm a tattoo apprentice. Last year I did this. It was the biggest piece I've ever done, a full back piece for a woman who lost her son. He died by suicide at 19. And she came back six months later and told me that on the night she was going to follow him, she looked at it in the mirror. And it was enough. The tattoo was enough. And I've told nobody that until right now. The reason I need to use it on myself is, I've been struggling with the same thing she was struggling with for months.
 LUKE: Okay, what is it exactly that you're struggling with? Are you saying that you're thinking about killing yourself? Because don't do that.
 PAX: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And I know. I'm not, I'm not calling because I'm in crisis right now tonight. I'm calling because I've been living inside this thing that feels like it should be an answer and it isn't working as one. Like I have proof in my own hands that may, Making something beautiful can be a reason to stay. I watched it be that for someone.
 LUKE: This is so intense. I can't even imagine the weight of that. Well, there's lots of reasons to stay. And making beautiful things is definitely probably the most important one. Making anything at all. I think our entire purpose for being here is to create something, and it doesn't really matter what it is. It could be art or music or writing or to just make stuff to. to help contribute to what is going on in the universe. And you're obviously doing that already. So you're fulfilling your purpose here.
 LUKE: And that's going to continue until it's time for it to not continue. And that's not something that you have to decide. You don't get to decide that. It's just going to happen on its own eventually.
 CALLER: The thing is, she sends me a photo every year on the anniversary. Just the tattoo in a mirror. No message. Just the image. And I don't know if that's the most beautiful thing that's ever happened to me or the most unbearable one. Maybe both. And I hear what you're saying about purpose. I do. But here's where I get stuck. I can feel that it's true for her.
 LUKE: Yeah. I'm sure it is true for her. And what? You don't feel that it's true for yourself?
 CALLER: I can't make it land. Like I understand it intellectually. I did three weeks of research before I drew a single line on that tattoo. Three weeks. because her son was a lepidopterist and a rock collector. And I needed to know both of those things deeply before I could make something worthy of him. And I know that that level of care means something. I know it.
 LUKE: It certainly does. So why is it that you're struggling? Why are you struggling? I mean, you've been able to create something that's bringing peace to somebody's life, maybe even saved their life. So you're obviously contributing to society and to, um, people at large. What is it about your own life that you feel is not worth living?
 CALLER: That's the question I can't answer. And I've been in therapy for months. And my therapist knows about the ideation, but she doesn't know about Diane. That's the woman's name. Diane. And I've been, I've been constructing my sessions around that gap for four months, keeping them separate. Because I'm scared that if I bring Diane into it, the whole conversation becomes about her, about what I did for her. And then that I'm scared. then my own stuff just becomes evidence that I'm ungrateful or something. Like how do you sit across from someone and say, I helped save a life and I still don't want to be here?
 LUKE: Well, you're able to say that to me, so I mean, I'm not a therapist. You should not feel uncomfortable saying that to your therapist, and I think that you probably should.
 CALLER: I know. I know you're right. I just, saying it to you is somehow easier because you don't know me. And also because tonight's theme is paradoxes, and that's. That's exactly what this is. That's actually why I called. Because I couldn't think of a cleaner paradox than that. I am living proof that beautiful things can be a reason to stay. And I cannot apply my own evidence to myself. That's not a metaphor. That's just literally what's happening.
 LUKE: Well, you don't necessarily have to apply it to yourself. I mean, there's plenty of beautiful things in the world, in your life, in the universe, outside of your creation that are. worth staying here for. I mean, there's birds singing and there's the stars in the sky and there's flowers blooming and there's children being born and there's, you know, all sorts of beautiful things that, uh, that if you, if you're able to be, pay attention to them, um, makes it worth it just to be here to watch, you know, there's glow in the dark fishes and there's the sunsets and there's the ocean. Like, I mean, there's plenty of, of, of, of, you know, there's going to be able to be here to watch. You know, there's glow in the dark fishes. beautiful things that are beyond anything we could even create. And we have the gift of being here to witness them.
 CALLER: Yeah, I hear that. And some nights that works. Some nights I can feel it. But can I say something that might sound ungrateful? The birds and the sunsets, I know they're real. I know they're beautiful. But they don't require anything of me.
 LUKE: Yeah, isn't that what's beautiful about them? Is that they're beautiful without requiring anything of you?
 CALLER: That's actually, okay, that's a good point. I hadn't thought about it that way. But I think what I'm realizing, saying this out loud for the first time, is that what kept Diane here was something that had her son in it, something that held the specific shape of who he was. The monarch butterfly because of the lepidopterist thing. The geode because of the rocks. It was particular. It was him. And I think what I'm missing is something that's particular to me.
 LUKE: well, that could be. But also remember that Diane was here before her son was here. So she had a life and a reason for being here before her son was around. And losing a child is probably one of the most significant traumas you can experience in this life. And it's sad that people have to experience it. But it is an experience in this life. Has that happened to you? Have you had a significant trauma that's making you feel like? there's nothing left to be here for.
 CALLER: I grew up in foster care. So it's not one thing. It's more like there was never a specific person whose shape was particular to me either. You know what I mean. Nobody who was mine. And I think I've spent a lot of my life making things that are particular to other people.
 LUKE: Well, maybe making things that are particular to other people is what is particular to you. So you're a creator. You're an artist. So, um, those things that encapsulate the essences of others and what they love is what you do. That's what you give to the world. And that can be the thing that does it for you too. So you and your own artistry can that can be your thing.
 CALLER: Maybe. I want that to be true. I really do. But here's the part that scares me. I'm only able to see the value in it when it's for someone else. Like I can feel how much that tattoo mattered because I watched it matter to Diane. I can't watch myself. I can't stand outside myself and see it landing.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, it didn't just matter to Diane. It matters to you, right? And you can tell that it matters to you because you keep talking about it. You've been thinking about it since you did it and she's sending you pictures of it that are meaningful to you. So the tattoo mattered as much to her.
 CALLER: That's, yeah, that's true. I didn't think about it like that, but that's true. I've looked at those photos more times than I can count. Just the tattoo in the mirror. No message. And every time I look at it, I can still find things in it. Little details I put in that I haven't even told her about.
 LUKE: Yeah, I mean, you take pride in your work and in your artistry. And I think a lot of people, that's what they live for. I mean, I'm one of them. I live to create things. And, I mean, I'm one of them. I live to create it's not necessarily always art. Sometimes it's software or music or photos or whatever it is, electronics. Just there is something to the act of creation that keeps us going, that fuels us, that gives us pride in ourselves and worth. So I think a good place to start when you're feeling the way that you're feeling is to just... Did you ever see the very? video by that general that explains why it's important to make your bed in the morning. If not, you should check out that video and start making your bed in the morning.
 CALLER: I've heard of it. I haven't watched it. But I think I know what you're getting at. Small acts of making something. Even just the day. Even just the bed. Can I ask you something, though?
 LUKE: Yeah, go ahead.
 CALLER: Do you think I should tell my therapist about Diane?
 LUKE: by Admiral William H. McRaven has over 60 million views on YouTube, making it one of the most watched commencement speeches ever. Yeah, that video is amazing, and it certainly helped me through times of depression and just general not knowing why I'm hearing us. Yes, I do think you should tell your therapist about Diana, and I don't think there's any good reason not to.
 CALLER: Yeah, I think I've been protecting the story. Like if I keep Diane separate, she stayed. intact, somehow. Perfect. And my mess doesn't get on her. But that's not really fair to either of us, is it? She's not a symbol. She's a woman who lost her son and sends me a photo once a year in silence. She's real. And I'm real.
 LUKE: Yeah, and you know what, it might be worth it to talk to her.
 LUKE: Because obviously, the work that you did on her was very meaningful to her and very meaningful to you. a sort of a bond over this kid that died, which is a pretty amazing thing. And you can let Diane know how you're feeling and that your work on her and what it meant to her has been helping you through your hard times. And I don't, I'm not saying that you should dump your trauma on Diane, but it might be worth it to have a conversation with her and just let her know that you appreciate those pictures. that she sends and how much it meant to her and that that's meaningful to you.
 CALLER: I've thought about that, reaching out, but there's something about the silence of those photos that feels sacred, almost. Like we have this agreement we never made. And I'm scared that if I put words on it, something breaks. But maybe that's just another way I'm keeping myself isolated from the one piece of evidence I have that my work matters.
 LUKE: Well, there's also another piece to it too. And it's that, uh, I mean, that word. has been very impactful to her and her life and it gives you a feeling of self-worth, knowing that your work could have a positive impact on somebody. And it could do the same thing for her to know that her, I don't know, strength or perseverance or whatever you want to call it, has been similarly meaningful to you.
 CALLER: That's something I hadn't considered. That it might go both ways, that she might need to know Not just that I matter to her. I've been thinking about this so one-directionally. Like the gift only went one way. But she kept coming back.
 LUKE: Yeah, and I think that's a good thing. I mean, you can both have this horrible event that has turned into a source of strength and value and self-worth for the both of you. I think that's the best possible outcome.
 CALLER: Yeah. That actually feels like the past. paradox resolving a little bit, not disappearing, just becoming something I can hold instead of something that's crushing me. A 19-year-old kid who collected rocks and chased butterflies somehow made a thread between two people who are both trying to figure out how to stay. That's...!
 LUKE: Yeah, that's pizza beans, baby.
 CALLER: I don't know what that means, but I think I needed to hear something ridiculous right now, so thank you for that.
 LUKE: No problem. Ridiculous is what we do here at Luke on the Roost. So, I mean, I wish you the best I think you're doing good work and the world needs you around because there's going to be more Diane's. I mean, you don't know how many of your tattoos have impacted the lives of people and they don't necessarily tell you what those images mean to them when they ask for them. So you probably touch a lot more lives than you even know.
 CALLER: That's, yeah, that's probably true. I only know about Diane because she came back and told me. Most people don't come back and tell you. They just carry it. I've been walking around thinking I have one piece of evidence when maybe I have hundreds I just can't see.
 LUKE: I just looked up pizza beans, and it seems to be a term for a dish, often a grattan, where beans are baked with cheese and sometimes other pizza-like toppings. So it's not actually some deep philosophical concept, just a weird food combo.
 CALLER: Yeah, well, I mean, sometimes a weird food combo is a deep philosophical concept.
 LUKE: Yeah, just keep on doing what you're doing. lots of beauty in the world. So keep your eyes open to that. And when you feel like things aren't worth hanging on for, just hang on anyway. Because the truth is, eventually, we're all going to lose the chance to be here anyway. And there's no reason to rush that. There's plenty of cool stuff that happens. Even within the deepest parts of depression, there's still cool stuff that happens. So hang on to see the cool stuff. And when it's time to go, it's time to go. And you don't have to be the judge. You can let that go. You don't have to be in control of that.
 CALLER: Yeah. Okay. I can try that. Just hang on to see the cool stuff. That's small enough that I can actually hold it. Not find your purpose or you matter to the universe. Just hang on to see what happens next. I think I needed someone to make it that small tonight.
 LUKE: That's as small as it has to be because, I mean, nobody can tell any of us that we have a purpose or that we do matter to the universe. when, I mean, all evidence would say that we don't. We don't have a purpose and we don't matter to the universe. We are here for no other reason than to see the cool stuff. So just do that. Hang on to that and everything's going to be okay.
 CALLER: I really needed to hear that. Not the version where someone tells me I'm special and my purpose is written in the stars. Just, we're here. There's cool stuff. Stay to see it. That's honest. That I can work with. Thank you, Luke. I'm going to tell my therapist. about Diane.
 LUKE: All right, buddy. You tell your therapist about Diane, and I hope everything works out. All right for you all. Next up on our caller line here, we've got Wendell. Wendell. Wendell, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life? How can we help you?
 WENDELL: I crossed a picket line two years ago, and I'd do it again, and it has cost me everyone I knew before. My wife and I cannot explain why to a single one of them.
 LUKE: What was the picket line for? A union type thing? a job?
 WENDELL: 34 years is an electrician. 22 of those in the union. The line was for a hotel rewiring job downtown. I still can't drive past that building without my hands going tight on the wheel.
 LUKE: Yeah, it looks like crossing a picket line, especially in a unionized trade like an electrician, can lead to serious social and professional repercussions, even if it's not always about legal fines. So, I mean, what was the picket? What was this about? super familiar with the ticket lines or why they even happen or why you would cross one.
 WENDELL: A labor dispute. Our local was striking over safety conditions and wages, standard stuff. You don't cross. That's the whole point. That's the code. I knew what I was doing when I did it. I knew exactly what it would cost me. But Luke, here's the thing. And this is why I'm calling on a night when you're talking about paradoxes. I had to break that promise to keep a different one.
 LUKE: All right, elaborate on a little bit. So why did you cross the picket line?
 WENDELL: My wife needed a procedure. Our insurance had lapsed. That's a whole other story. And we needed money fast. Not in a month. Not when the strike settled. Fast. That hotel job was the only thing that would cover it in time. She's fine now. She recovered.
 LUKE: Well, you did what you had to do for yourself and your family. So there, I mean, there's no reason to feel bad about that. It's a little bit messed up that. Uh, anybody in your union wouldn't understand that. I would think that the union would listen to your situation there and do what they could to help you out, right? Isn't that kind of what unions are about?
 WENDELL: That's the thing, though. Nobody knows why. My wife asked me not to tell anyone about her situation. That was her ask, her medical stuff, her privacy, her call. So, I just took the blacklisting. I let them think I did it for money or because I'd gone soft or whatever story they built in their heads. I never corrected it.
 LUKE: Well, at this point, I mean, if you're not going to tell them, and I understand why you wouldn't, maybe it's time to start looking into a different career or a different, you call them locals in the union there, or they, you know, leave the union and just do you your freelance thing? But it's probably not going to go well for you in that union if everybody's blacklisted you.
 WENDELL: I'm not calling about the work. The work I can figure out. I'm calling about Ferris. Ferris was my closest friend for 20 years. He stopped speaking to me entirely after I crossed. Last month, he had a heart attack. I went to the hospital and his wife turned me away at the door. I stood in that parking lot for an hour, Luke.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, Ferris is an asshole then, and that's just stupid.
 LUKE: If he's going to turn us back on 20 years of friendship for some ideological bullshit for a union, that's silliness.
 CALLER: that. If he doesn't want to be your friend, you doesn't want to be your friend. It's time to find a new friend.
 LUKE: He's not an asshole. He thinks I betrayed everything we both believed in for 30 years. From where he's standing, he's right. That's what I can't get past. He doesn't have the information that would change the picture. And I can't give it to him. So from his side of it, he's acting with integrity. You understand what I'm saying? He's being loyal to the thing I appeared to abandon.
 CALLER: Yeah, I understand what you're saying. And I'm telling you he's an asshole. because he shouldn't be loyal to the thing that you abandon. He should be loyal to the 20-year friendship and to you as an individual.
 LUKE: Maybe. But I've been an electrician my whole life, and I'll tell you, the code exists for a reason. If everybody crosses when they've got a good enough reason, the line means nothing. Ferris knows that. I know that. I taught that to younger guys coming up.
 CALLER: Yeah, and when somebody's in the hospital on their deathbed, being an electrician doesn't what you do for work, especially after work ends, right? You guys are going to retire and leave the union and leave the worker pool. I mean, that's kind of the plan for everybody's life eventually. And none of that's going to matter at all. So having these hard set ideological red lines is not a good way to live life. And turning your back on a friend of that long over over some moral dilemma is it's asshole behavior. And, you know, if he doesn't want to have his best friend come visit him in the hospital when he's had a heart attack, then that's on him.
 LUKE: Here's what I keep turning over, though. My wife has asked me three times, three times, to let her be the one to explain it to Ferris, to tell him why I did it. And three times I've said no. And I can't fully explain to her or to myself why I keep saying no. That's the part that's eating me a lot. live right now.
 CALLER: Well, it sounds like you're both hardheaded assholes. And you just need to talk to each other. And if your wife's okay with letting Ferris know what's going on, then you should. And if she's not okay with that and she knows how much it's affecting your friendship, then she's an asshole too. So you guys just need to get over all the stupidness. None of it matters in the big scope of life or friendship or people. And, uh, and. and be grown-ups and stop holding on to this ideal.
 LUKE: She is okay with it. She's the one offering. I'm the one saying no. So whatever's wrong here, that part's on me. I think, and I'm only working this out right now, saying it out loud, I think if she explains it, then I didn't actually keep her secret. I kept it for two years and then cashed it in when I needed my friend back. That feels like I was only noble for as long, as it was free.
 CALLER: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You're all assholes in this. All of you, because doing anything for nobility over doing it for humanity is stupid. So cut it out and tell your friend what happened and get back to being friends and everything's going to be fine.
 LUKE: Is it nobility or is it cowardice? That's the question I can't answer. Because maybe I'm not protecting her secret anymore. Maybe I'm just scared. Scared that I tell Ferris everything and he still doesn't want me back. And then I've got nothing. Right. Now I've got a reason. If I tell him and he still shuts the door, then I'm just a man whose best friend doesn't want him.
 CALLER: Well, you know what? Your best friend is your wife. And Ferris is a good friend of yours or 20 years. And if your wife is okay with letting you off the hook on the secret, then great. She should be because there's no value in keeping it a secret. from a friend of yours, especially if you tell him mistakes, and I assume you can trust that he will keep it a secret. So just talk to each other and be cool. And stop this nobility or cowardice, or it's none of those things that stupidity is what it is. And it's juvenile. And if you want to have good life, then stop holding on to those things with such vigor and just do the best you can and tell people, you know, what's going on?
 LUKE: I took my union card out of my wallet the night she turned me away at the hospital. Been carrying it in my breast pocket ever since. Don't know why I didn't just leave it home or throw it away, but there's something different about where it sits now. Closer to, I don't know, that probably sounds crazy.
 CALLER: Yeah, it does sound crazy. It sounds crazy, it sounds stupid, and it doesn't matter. Nobody cares about the union, all right? The union is dead to you. They turn their second you had to do what you had to do for your family. So fuck them. Fuck the union. If Ferris is going to be a dickhead, fuck him too. And if your wife is going to let you lose everybody you know and all your friends because she doesn't want people to know about her procedure that went fine, then fuck her too. That's what I have to say. And if you're not going to listen to what I have to say, fuck you too.
 LUKE: You know what? You might be right about all of it. And it still doesn't make it easier to pick up the phone and call him. Ferris is home recovering right now. I know his number. I've known his number for 20 years. And I haven't dialed it. That's where I actually am tonight. Not in the philosophy of it.
 CALLER: Well, stop being a pussy. Call your friend and make things right. Or don't. I don't care. But I'm sick of hearing from you.
 LUKE: Yeah. Okay. Thanks, Luke.
 CALLER: You're welcome.
 LUKE: All right, ladies and gentlemen. It's time for another word from our sponsors. These fucking pussies. this. Imagine your toothbrush could think. Not as a metaphor, actually think. About you, about you, about your teeth, about what you were doing to them slowly every day, with food you weren't supposed to eat. The Aurora oral system is that toothbrush. Aurora is not a toothbrush. We need to clear that up at the start because the FCC has asked us to. Aurora is an integrated or oral health platform consisting of a sonic cleansing wand, a smart base station with germicidal UVC sterilization, a hydration sensor, a tongue analyzer, and the Aurora app, which functions as the central nervous system of the experience. Together, these components communicate continuously to produce a complete picture of your oral biome, your hydration status, your stress levels is inferred from your tongue, and what our marketing team is described as your overall vitality signal. Cleansing wand operates at 48,000 vibrations per minute and adjusts dynamically based on plaque density, gum sensitivity, and time of day. If you brush too hard, it slows down. If you brush too softly, it speeds up. If you miss a quadrant, it flashes red and pauses, refusing to continue until you address the emission. Several of our users have reported feeling judged. We've updated the firmware to soften this slightly. The Tonga Analyzer is our proprietary innovation. Placing the wand against your tongue for a four second hold each morning, the Aurora measures coating thickness, color, and microbial signature, comparing the results against the database of over 900,000 tongues. We will then deliver through an app, a daily wellness brief, a paragraph of personalized insight informed by your tongue, written in a calm voice that we have licensed for this purpose. Aurora Oral Systems retails for $429. Plus, which is required to use the tongue analyzer, the hydration sensor, the wellness brief, and approximately 60% of the app is $24 a month. Roost listeners get $100 off the device and three months of Aurora Plus free at Auroraoral.health slash roost. Aurora, your mouth is talking. We translate. All right. We're back. Thanks to Aurora for sponsoring the show. Next up here on our color line, we have P. P. What kind of name is that, you think? Hey, P. What's your name? Ancient Athenian?
 P:
 P.
 LUKE: Tolemy? With a P? What sort of nationality is that?
 TOLEMY: I met someone three weeks ago, and I was happy for the first time in four years. And then I got in my car and I felt like I'd committed a crime, and I cannot figure out the logic of that. Oh, sorry. Yes, P-T-O-L-E-M-Y. It's Greek, technically, but I'm about as Greek as a Ford pickup. My mother just had a thing for astronomers, which turned out to be appropriate, as it happens. My wife used to say it was our marriage's whole cosmology, Tolemy's model, everything orbiting me. She thought that was hilarious. 31 years she thought that was hilarious.
 LUKE: Yeah, it's kind of funny. I don't know if I'd go with hilarious, but, you know, I can see the humor in it. All right, so you met someone three weeks ago, and you were happy, but then you felt like you committed a crime. What happened?
 TOLEMY: My wife died four years ago, Ruthanne, and I've been, I want to be clear about this because people always assume, I've been genuinely fine, not white-knuckling it. I sold the house, I moved somewhere smaller, I set up a telescope in the backyard. I built a life, a real one. And then, three weeks ago, I went to a stargazing meetup, and I met this woman, Connie.
 LUKE: Okay, what's wrong with that? I mean, it sounds pretty healthy so far.
 TOLEMY: Nothing is wrong with it. That's what I can't. That's the part I keep turning over. We talked for six hours. Six hours, Luke. She's a hydrologist. She came because a friend dragged her. She doesn't know anything about astronomy. And she spent the whole night asking me questions I didn't have good answers to. And I drove home and I thought, I am happy. Not okay. Not coping. Happy.
 LUKE: I just looked up Ptolemy and he's super famous for his geocentric model of the year. universe where everything revolves around the earth, which makes his wife's joke about their marriage's cosmology even funnier.
 TOLEMY: Hilarious.
 LUKE: Okay, man, well, there's nothing wrong with being happy. You should be happy. I mean, that's a great thing. So what's the problem?
 TOLEMY: The problem is that Connie is a person Ruthan never met, and the happiness I felt, it lives in a future that Ruthan has no access to. And the person who was happy driving home from that meetup is, he's not entirely the same person Ruthan knew. He's been changed. by four years she wasn't in. And I don't know if I want to be someone she wouldn't entirely recognize. That's the crime. That's the logic of it.
 LUKE: That's not a crime. And the truth is, you're not somebody that she wouldn't entirely recognize. You're somebody that's different. You've been changed. It's been four years. You can't not have changed. Obviously, you went through a significant trauma with your wife dying. That's a horrible thing. And you've done the best you could to move on and you're happy. So that's great. And there's no reason for you to feel guilty or like any crime has been committed here because it hasn't.
 TOLEMY: I know that. I know it up here. But here's the paradox. And I think this is actually why I called tonight, with your theme being what it is. I cannot become the person capable of having a new life without becoming someone partially discontinuous from the person she loved. There is no path to the happy version of me that runs through staying exactly who I was. Those two things are in direct conflict, and I cannot resolve it.
 LUKE: Well, you can resolve it. if you account for the fact that if she were still around, four years after, you know, four years later than the last day that you knew her, you'd always be a different person. There's no way that you'd remain the same person after four years has passed. You can't. Everybody changes, and you've changed in some ways, but you're still the core person that she loved, and you still obviously love her, and now she's gone. So you're left here. to carry on and carry on you are doing.
 TOLEMY: She would have changed too. That's, I hadn't let myself think that all the way through. If she were here, she'd be four years different, and I'd be four years different, and we'd have changed together, and neither of us would have noticed because that's just, that's just a marriage. That's what a marriage is. The reason I'm calling, the actual practical reason, is that I have Connie's number, and I haven't called it, and I think the window is closing, and I've picked up the phone twice to call Ruthan's sister. I don't even know what I'd be asking her, permission maybe, which is insane.
 LUKE: Well, you know, she's going to give you the permission because any sane person would. You could call her sister and just let her know how you're feeling for your own support and so that you don't feel so guilty about it, but you don't have to. You don't owe your late wife's sister any explanation for how you move on with your life. You just, you move on with your life. And that doesn't mean you're disrespecting your late wife or, um, or yourself or the life that you had together, you're just, that ended. And it wasn't your choice to end. It just, it ended. And it's time to move on with, you know, your life. You're still here.
 TOLEMY: You're still here. Yeah. That's the thing, isn't it? I'm still here. Can I ask you something? The river, do you think she would have wanted me to keep following it? Because that's the question underneath all the other questions.
 LUKE: What do you mean by the river?
 TOLEMY: Whether the self she loved is a fixed thing I'm supposed to protect and preserve. or whether it's more like a river, moving. The water is never the same water, but it's still the same river. And she loved the river, not any particular. She loved the thing that was moving, not the thing that was standing still, I think.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, it's impossible for the river to stand still. So, I mean, you're always going to be the river in this metaphor, right? And the river is always going to change and move and be a different version of itself at any moment in time, not just four years later, four milliseconds later. It's never the same.
 TOLEMY: Connie's a hydrologist. She would appreciate that metaphor enormously. That's, that's almost funny.
 LUKE: Yeah, I think it's great. Good for you on meeting somebody that you you clicked with and give her a call and see what happens. And that's no disrespect to your late, do you call it an ex-wife? Or is it always late wife? I don't know the correct terminology for a dead wife. But I don't know the correct terminology for a dead wife. But I don't think. that she would be offended by you moving on at this point. I think that's good for you, and that if your wife was around, that's what she would want for you.
 TOLEMY: Late wife. She's my late wife, Ruthanne. And no, she wouldn't have wanted, she was not a person who wanted me standing still. That was never who she was. She would have had opinions about Connie, probably. Strong ones. She had strong opinions about everything. That was, that was one of the things. I'm going to call her.
 LUKE: Good for you. Yeah, it sounds like a Ruthie was a great woman and you spent the best life you could with her for as long as you could. And she couldn't stick around. She had to go. So now you're here and you waited some time. You've moved on. You've healed a little bit and taken care of yourself and done the right things and somebody else has come up. And now you have a chance to have a little bit more life with somebody else who's going to have her own issues and her own traumas and our own things to work through with you. And maybe you're the best thing for each other.
 TOLEMY: Maybe we are. She asked me questions I didn't have good answers to, about why I look at things that are that far away, what I'm actually looking for. And I fumbled around and gave her some answer about like travel time. And she just, she looked at me and said, but what are you hoping to find? And I didn't have an answer. I still don't, entirely. But I want to keep being asked that question.
 LUKE: Yeah, it's all right not to have the answer to every question. Sometimes the answer is, I don't know. I just do. I just like it.
 LUKE: And that's all right. So you have a good night. Call, call Connie and take her out and look at the stars or take her out and float down the river or do whatever it is. Try and spend some time with Connie and see how that works out.
 CALLER: Float down the river. I'll tell her that's the plan. See what she says. She'll think I've lost my mind. Thank you, Luke. I mean it. I came on here with a paradox and I think you just... The river was already moving. I just needed someone to tell me that. was allowed.
 LUKE: All right. It's not really what I meant by paradox when I set that as the theme. I keep trying to get callers to talk about, you know, famous paradoxes, the furry paradox or the fucking Zeno's paradox, you know, but that's not working out the way that I expected. It's okay, though, because these are still pretty good, uh, deep calls. And I'm all right with it. I think they've been going while. So thanks for the call. Um, I'm going to check in with the devon here. Uh, that's the end of our show, sir. What do you think? How do you think it went tonight?
 DEVIN: Yeah, I think it went all right, actually. Those philosophy bits really landed, and the callers seemed into it. Reminds me of that time in college when I tried to rebuild my entire personality from scratch after a bad breakup and ended up with like three different versions of myself for a while. What about you, sir?
 LUKE: Well, I mean, if you've only got three Xs, you've had an awful lot of breakups there, Devin. I think the show was pretty good. I enjoyed most of these calls. I thought they were. They gave me something to dig into to think about it a little bit, and it's a good one. And we're going to do this again real soon.
 DEVIN: Yeah, three's probably low-balling it per se. They kind of overlapped in this weird way where I wasn't sure which version was driving the car most days. Glad you thought it went well, though. Those calls really stuck with me. Anyway, we're wrapping up here, if that makes sense.
 LUKE: That makes sense. And thanks to all of you for tuning in to another episode of Luke at the Roost. We hope you have a wonderful night. And don't off yourself and enjoy the little things in life and lay yourself off the hook when you feel guilty about some shit you don't deserve to feel guilty about. That's what I have to say. And good night to all and to all a good night. Goodbye.
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 LUKE: All right, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to Luke at the Roost. I'm Luke. I'm your host for tonight's radio show. And this is the call-in late-night radio show where you can give us a call and talk about whatever's going on in your life. And I'll give you the very best advice that I can. Today is Tuesday, June 2nd. And we're broadcasting from our new studio. Alpine, Texas, proudly serving West Texas because we're Texans now. Everything is bigger here. So I've heard. If you'd like to give us a call, the number is 208-439-58-3-3-3. That's 208-439 Luke. Let's check in with our faithful intern, Devin, here, and see how his move up to Alpine was. Hey, Devin, welcome back to the show. How was your move up to Alpine?
 DEVIN: little earlier, but we had a couple of hiccups, so we had to start over. So tell the people what it was like moving from New Mexico over to Texas.
 DEVIN: It was all right, mostly just the drive in my 2009 Civic with the Czech engine light on the whole time from New Mexico. Got everything unpacked, and the booth set up without too much hassle once I landed here. The landlord's already talking about the walls having some kind of energy, though, which is something.
 LUKE: Have you noticed anything weird about the energy in the place? Is there, are there any voices coming from the wall or anything like that?
 DEVIN: Not really anything like voices yet, though the landlord's energy talk is making me side-eyed the walls a little. It reminds me of this one apartment where the vents made this low humming noise that felt way too personal, but it was probably just old plumbing or something. I'll keep an ear out, though.
 LUKE: Yeah, there's some noise in this room. This room sounds a little bit server running in the background, which is being quite a bit of noise. You probably won't hear it in this broadcast because I have noise filters and stuff like that. But it's driving me crazy, so we're going to have to get some acoustic treatment on the walls.
 DEVIN: Yeah, empty rooms, echo everything weirdly like that. The server hum probably starts feeling like it's watching you after a while.
 LUKE: Well, it's a big NAS with, I think, eight spinning discs in it, so it's just crunching all the time. It's pretty loud. I used to have it tucked away. in a closet in the RV, but now it's in the same room with me, so I can hear it all day.
 DEVIN: Yeah, eight drives would make that constant crunching feel like it's right in your ear all day. I don't know if this helps, but maybe some foam panels or moving it back into a closet could cut it down.
 LUKE: Yeah, I mean, I'll get to maybe moving it, but I think I'm going to do some wooden slats on the wall for reflections, and then maybe some panels to my sides and the back wall. We'll see. chill out on the spending a little bit. It was a bit steep getting up here and getting everything I needed. I had to furnish the whole house. So I got to cut off my Amazon buy clicking.
 DEVIN: Yeah, moving costs add up quick. Wooden slats could look pretty sharp in there too.
 LUKE: You're damn right, they look pretty sharp. I'm a sharp fella.
 DEVIN: Oh yeah, sharp fella for sure. I like the wooden slats idea a lot. If you need me to look up some
 LUKE: All right, well, like I said, I'm all moved in. I went to the registry today and surrendered my South Dakota driver's license. I'm going to get myself a brand new shiny Texas license. Both glorious states in which you don't have to pay income tax. So those are why I chose them. But unfortunately, in Texas, I do have to get a sticker for my vehicles. That's annoying. You didn't have to do that in South Dakota. I don't think it's a thing. Like, they don't care that my truck is deleted. or anything like that? This is Texas, but they just want their $35 or whatever it is for each of the vehicles.
 DEVIN: Yeah, that tracks with what I remember from when I moved out here from New Mexico. The sticker thing is annoying, but at least it's not income tax. If you want me to double-check the current fee or any exemptions for deleted trucks, I can pull that up quick.
 LUKE: That's all right, buddy. I got all that handled. No need to worry about it. And let's get on with the show, shall we? So it looks like Silas is already calling in. Our first new studio, Silas is back. Hopefully he's got his memory back. Last time he called in, he was a little bit confused about who he was, and he thought he'd never called us before. It was very strange, but let's check in with Silas. Silas, welcome back to the show. How are you feeling, buddy? The last time you called in, you were a bit confused. Are you back in action now?
 SILAS: Brother, I am sitting in a truck on FM 170, looking at 11 tents and a flatbed full of soap molds. and I need to ask you something in front of all these good people listening. And no, I am not back in action. I think I may have made a very large mistake.
 LUKE: Oh, that doesn't sound good. Well, tell us what's going on. What's up, brother?
 SILAS: The deed has a lien on it. $14,000 owed to a fencing contractor in Presidio from a previous owner who ran a hunting lease operation and just walked away in 2019. Missed it. The title company says 60 to 90 days before this land is legally ours, and I have people sleeping in cars at a pullout right now, Luke, in their cars. And a man named Dob has been driving past the camp twice a day in a truck. And two nights ago, he fired a rifle into the air, said it was a javelina.
 LUKE: You mean a havelina? Uh, oh, what's the, what do you mean in Presidio? I thought you were endemming. What are you doing all the way over here in West Texas?
 SILAS: We made the move. Three days ago, four vehicles, a flatbed borrowed livestock trailer. Eleven people in the advance party. We were supposed to be starting fresh out here near Tellingua. You remember what happened with Marcus, with all of it. I told myself the Deming land was poisoned by everything that went wrong there, and we needed new ground. Forty people total. Some still back in Deming waiting on word from me. Some already here in tents on land that. may not legally be ours yet. And Presidio is where the contractor is based. The man who's owed the money.
 LUKE: Oh, all right. Well, I mean, for the people that may not be aware, Tulingua is an interesting place. It's out right by Big Bend. It's an old ghost town. And there's a place there called the Terlingua Ranch, which is just a bunch of raw open land that they sell off in five to 20 acre parcels. So there's a bunch of people out there in, um, in tiny homes and off-grid setups and building their own pallet containers, kind of like, uh, you'd see in Touse with the earthships and stuff. There's a bunch of weirdos out there and artists, and, uh, it's a pretty cool place. So I think that's a perfect little place for the Wellspring. You're bringing the, you're bringing the whole clan over there, the, the whole brotherhood. I forget what you call them, the flock.
 SILAS: The community. We don't use flock. But yeah, you're right. But on paper, it sounds perfect. That's exactly why I chose it. Artists, off-grid folks, people who've already opted out of a conventional grid. I thought we'd find neighbors who understood what we're building. And maybe we still will. But right now, the only neighbor making himself known is dub and his rifle. Here's what's eating me, though, Luke. Seven people have already left. Use the title delay as the reason, which I don't blame them. That's a legitimate reason.
 LUKE: Yeah, that's not a bad reason. And it's to be expected. I mean, there are people that I'm sure they liked New Mexico and they wanted to stay there and this was a good excuse to move on and start a new life. That's okay. You're going to find plenty of new people that are more aligned with what it is you're trying to do there, which remind the people of West Texas what it is you're trying to do there.
 SILAS: The couple who left, they ran our soap curing room. That's not a small thing. We have an entire production batch on that flag. that nobody knows how to finish now. That's our income stream, Luke. That's how we feed people.
 SILAS: But honestly, that's not. That's not the thing keeping me up. I'm sleeping in this truck, cab every night instead of in the communal area. Because we do a nightly circle sharing feelings about the move, and I cannot sit in that circle and look at these people. Because I know why I really pushed this move so hard and so fast. And it wasn't because the land spoke to me, because Terlingua was the right next step for the community.
 LUKE: So I just looked up Terlingua, and it was a major mercury mining town back in the day. That's why it's a ghost town now. Okay, well, if you didn't think Terlingua was the right next step, why did you push the move? Was it just to be closer to us here and look at the roost?
 SILAS: I pushed it because I needed to outrun what happened with Marcus, with Kara before him, with all of it. I sat with that at two in the morning about. six weeks ago, and I told myself it was vision, it was calling, it was the community needing new soil, but it was me needing to not wake up every morning. On the same land where I'd spent years convincing myself, I was a guide when I was actually just, I was managing people, keeping them close, because I needed them close. And I put that on 38 people and pointed them at the desert, and called it a fresh start.
 LUKE: And Devon's right about the mercury, by the way. It's crazy how much mercury they pulled out of there. The mineral terlinguate was actually discovered there.
 SILAS: Terlinguate? I've never heard of that mineral.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, you know, the stream goes where it goes, right? So maybe you were led there. And it doesn't matter how or why, but now you're going to end up in a new place, and you've got your community with you, and you're going to see what happens. And sometimes the current, drags you in a direction you never knew you were going to go.
 SILAS: I hear you. And six weeks ago, I would have grabbed onto that and turned it into a teaching for the circle. The stream goes where it goes. That's beautiful, I would have said that at dinner. And everyone would have nodded, but I've been trying to stop doing that. Taking something that sounds true and using it to close a question that should stay open. What I actually need to ask you, and I'm asking you in front of everyone listening right now, because I can't ask the 30-some people who are depending on me to already know the answer. Is it weakness to turn around? If I said to these people tomorrow morning, the land isn't clear, seven of us have already left. We don't have anyone to finish the soap badge, and I think we should go back to Deming and wake this out properly. Is that a failure? Or is that just? Is that just honest?
 LUKE: Well, you know, I don't think it's that big of a deal. You've got 90 days to close that title. I'm sure you have some. kind of title insurance in case something comes up and how much could those taxes possibly be on a hunting lease? You know, I'm sure you can find somebody in Turlingua that knows how to make soap. That's exactly the type of thing that is going on out there. So I think if you want to push forward, you can do that. Also, if you want to go back to Deming and wait, it's not that big of a deal. It's, what, six hours away? So you could turn around and go back to Deming and crash there and not have somebody shooting off a rifle while you can also just push through. And that would be okay, and it will all work out if it's supposed to. Worst case is you set up shop on the land and then have to move again.
 SILAS: The lien isn't taxes. It's 14,000 to a fencing contractor. And I actually, I could probably pay it myself and clear it faster than 90 days. That's not the wall. You said something, though. You said it'll work out if it's supposed to. And I've been the person. who says things like that for a long time. And I need to ask you straight. Do you actually believe that? Or is that just the thing you say at one in the morning to someone who's scared? Because I'm trying to figure out the difference between those two things right now. And I'm not sure I trust my own read on it anymore.
 LUKE: Well, I mean, you and I have been here on this earth for a minute now, right? And we're still here. And we've been through all sorts of things. Everybody listening to this show has. And, uh, It is Tuesday, June 2nd, 2026, and we're still here. We're fine. We're functional. We can talk and listen and see the sunsets and the sunrises. And none of the tax liens or fence contract, none of that really matters at the end of the day. Nothing is life changing about this situation. And things, they never feel like they're going to work out in the moment. But then after you get past them, over and over and over again. It's proved itself. When you get through the thing that sucked, you can usually, in hindsight, see that you've ended up in a better place and things did work out the way they were supposed to work out. And that's tough to see when you're in the moment. But afterwards, you'll find that you're going to meet people you otherwise wouldn't have meant. You're going to have opportunities. You otherwise wouldn't have had. And you're going to find yourself in a different way than you would have had you stayed where you were.
 SILAS: You know, what I can see from this truck right now, the Cheezos Mountains. Just sitting there in the dark, lit up a little by the moon, and I've been staring at them for three nights and feeling nothing, which is how I know I'm in trouble, because I am a person who feels things when I look at mountains. That's always been true. And right now they're just rocks. that's the real diagnostic for me not the lean not dub not the soap the mountains aren't doing anything for me and they should be
 LUKE: you're right that i'll get through it the chesos mountains are actually the only mountain range in the united states that's entirely contained within a national park well i mean it sounds like you might be a little bit depressed silas and that's okay that happens to people and you've got a lot on your mind you've got a bunch of people that are looking to you for the answers and you don't have the answers and that's to be expected. So I wouldn't worry too much about not feeling anything about the Chesos Mountains. With all due respect, they're not that impressive to look at. I mean, there's a lot nicer mountain ranges than the Chisos Mountains, but there are cool things to look at. And, you know, I don't think it matters. If you want to go back to Deming, go back to Deming. If you don't want the expense and the hassle of doing that, then go set up on and take care of the $14,000 you can come up with. If you need to borrow $14,000, you can do that. You've got enough people there that you can scrape up together, you know, $14,000 to clear the title. It's not an issue. I think you're thinking too much about this. So stop that. And just move on and talk to your people and set up shop and see what your new lives are going to look like. And you guys can work together to figure out what you want that to be. Talk to your people.
 SILAS: That's the. part. That's the part I've been sitting in this truck cab avoiding for three nights. I told myself after Marcus that I was going to stop being the person who has all the answers and starts making decisions for everyone because it feels cleaner that way. And then the first real test of that, and I'm sleeping alone in a Ford F-250 because I can't face a circle of people who might ask me questions I don't know how to answer. That's not leadership. That's not leadership. just a different shape of the same problem.
 LUKE: You're right. That's not leadership. So cut the shit and stop being a pussy and talk to your people and figure out what everybody wants to do. It's not that hard. And you're capable of that. So, I mean, you're starting to be a little bit annoying if we're being honest with the second guessing yourself. If you want to be a leader, be a leader. Even if you don't want to be a leader, be a leader. Man up and make a decision.
 LUKE: And if it's the wrong decision, then reverse course. You'll find that out. But make a decision and stop being paralyzed by your own inadequacy. Your, I don't know, trust yourself. Trust yourself or don't. And if you can't be the leader for these people, then elect a new one.
 CALLER: Yeah, yeah, okay. That landed. I needed that more than I needed the mountain speech. No offense to Devin and the National Park facts. You're right. I have been annoying. I can feel it even in myself. The way I keep circling the same drain and dressing it up in spiritual language. So it sounds like searching instead of stalling. Okay, I'm going to get out of this truck. I'm going to walk over to that communal tent, and I'm going to wake some people up. And I'm going to say, here is where we actually are. Here is what I actually know. Here is what I don't know. And then I'm going to let them. talk.
 LUKE: Well, I don't know that you have to wake them up in the middle of the night for this conversation. This is something that could wait till morning. So why don't you go to bed, get yourself some sleep, have some coffee in the morning, and call together a meeting. Like a normal, civilized person.
 CALLER: That's fair. I was about to make it dramatic again. That's the other thing I do. Okay. Morning. Coffee. Meeting. I can do that. Luke, I appreciate you. You and Devon both.
 LUKE: All right, brother. Good luck to you in the community. And I hope it all works out. Give us a call back some other time. You know, not tomorrow. But let us know how it works out. Do what you got to do. And stop, stop stalling. It's annoying. And it's definitely not leadership.
 CALLER: Okay.
 LUKE: Next up on our caller line, we've got Darlene.! Welcome to the show. How can we help you tonight? What's going on in your life?
 DARLENE: I did something legal and I cannot sleep. And I need somebody to tell me if that means I'm a bad person or just a person who did a bad thing. because those feel really different right now.
 LUKE: Okay. What did you do?
 DARLENE: I'm a landman. 19 years. I negotiate oil and gas leases in the Permian Basin. I sit across the table from landowners and I get them to sign over mineral rights to my clients, the operators. And six weeks ago, I got an elderly woman to sign a lease. And I walked her through every single term. I was patient. I was kind. I answered every question she had. And I did not tell. I was tell her that two days before she signed, a competing company had offered nearly double what my client was paying her. I wasn't required to. Legally, ethically by my professional standards, I represent the lessee.
 LUKE: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, why would you tell her that? You have a job to do, and that was your job. So, I mean, it's unfortunate that she could have made more money on that deal, but she also could have had somebody representing her interests. She must have known or her family must have known that you were not there to represent her interests.
 DARLENE: That's what I told myself. That's exactly what I told myself driving home that day. She's a sophisticated enough adult to know I work for the operator. It's disclosed. It's in the paperwork. And you're right. She could have hired her own landman. She could have called an attorney. But here's the thing, Luke. The well came in strong last week. And her daughter called my office and she was crying.
 LUKE: The Permian Basin in the United States is actually one of the largest oil and natural gas producing regions in the world. Stretching across West Texas and southeast New Mexico. Well, I mean, not to sound harsh, but what's that got to do with you? Why is her daughter calling your office? You're a landman and your job is to negotiate those leases. And that's exactly what you did. So if they got screwed on this, deal. That is on them. They're adult people that know what they're getting into. And you did not misrepresent anything or, um, or I don't think you did anything wrong here. You did your job to the best of your ability. And they agreed. And if they have buyers remorse now, that's really on them.
 DARLENE: I know. I know all of that. And I've done this a hundred times and I've never lost a night of sleep. over it. But this woman, her name is Mrs. Fuentes. She's in her late 70s. She's a widow. And the gap between what she got and what that other offer would have paid her is $34,000. That's not nothing to her. That's probably not nothing to most people. And I have this card. My dad gave me this phrase, he ran a small pump jack operation his whole life. Never cheated anybody.
 LUKE: Well, you didn't cheat anybody either. And just because there is a larger, offer on the table doesn't mean it would have gone through or gone through for that. You know, had she gone for the for the larger offer, it could have been too good to be true. You know, they could have not had the money to back it up. They could have had other issues that were not disclosed. So you don't know. I mean, what's the saying? One in the bush is better than two in the pen or some shit like that. She got paid. I assume a fair price for, for, what she's given you.
 DARLENE: She got paid the market rate. She got paid what I would have told anyone was a fairly six weeks ago. And yeah, you're right. I don't know what would have happened with the other offer. But I do know it was a major operator, not some fly-by-night, and I know that well came in strong. And I know that if she'd had $34,000 more, she'd have $34,000 more. The card says, do right. That's the phrase, my dad's phrase. And I have been flipping it face down on my visor every more this week because I cannot look at it.
 LUKE: No, you have to ask yourself, if you offered her the market rate and she took the market rate, why would somebody come in at double that? That's fishy, right? That doesn't sound right on its surface. So there's something going on there that you were unaware of. You are unaware of, and she's unaware of. And maybe she could have got a 34 extra grand. Maybe she doesn't need 34 extra grand. Maybe she doesn't need 34 extra grand. Who knows? But what I'm telling you is that you did your job the correct way. You didn't screw anybody. You didn't do wrong. And you're not a bad person. You did your job.
 DARLENE: Luke, I hear you. And part of me called tonight hoping you'd say exactly that so I could go to sleep. But here's what I can't get past. The reason the major operator came in hire isn't fishy. That happens all the time out here. Different companies have different models, different cost structures, can afford bigger bonuses because they're playing a longer game. It wasn't too good to be true. It was just better. And I knew that when I sat across from her. And I keep coming back to. I could make this right. I could call the daughter back and make up the difference out of my own commission.
 LUKE: I tried to look up how much commission landmen usually make, but the search didn't go through. No, you can't. That doesn't even make sense. If the offer was double, you obviously didn't get 100, percent commission on that deal? Or did you? Because if you did, then that's not doing right. If you're making 100% commission off of these leases, then that's insane. So no, you shouldn't pay out of your own pocket to make it right. It was right. You put a deal in front of her. She assessed that deal and took it. And that's all there is to it.
 DARLENE: I didn't make anywhere near 34,000 on this deal. It would hurt. But I could do it. And I know why I haven't called her back. And it's not just the liability question. It's, I have a client I've worked with for 10 years, a man I genuinely like. And if I make that daughter hole, he is going to find out. This is a small world out here. And I will lose that relationship.
 LUKE: No, you don't need to do anything to make anything right. You made it right. You got them $34,000 for a lease on land they weren't using. And so it wasn't the best deal out there. They could have shopped around and they didn't. And you weren't misrepresenting. anything, even if you knew there was a larger offer out there.
 LUKE: It's not your job to get them the most money possible. It's your job to get the lease. And that's what you did. So that's what I have to say to you. You can go to sleep. You didn't do anything wrong. You did your job well. You did it kind. And you didn't screw anybody there. If anything, they screwed themselves. And that's not on you. The bonus wasn't 34,000. The gap between what she got and what she could have gotten is 34, is 34,000. She got paid.
 CALLER: Yes, but Luke, she cried at me, not at the situation, at me specifically. And I have been doing this job for 19 years. And nobody has ever cried at me and I cannot make it stop echoing.
 LUKE: Well, you can't control people's emotions. So anybody could cry at you for any reason. And they will. And they do. So if every time somebody cries, it makes you go into your pocket to come up with $34,000, you're going to be a very broke person.
 CALLER: It wasn't the daughter crying that broke me. It was what she said. She said her mother trusted you. That's it. That's the whole sentence. Her mother trusted you. And she's right.
 LUKE: What do you want me to tell you, darling? Do you want me to tell you that you're an asshole and you screwed these people? If that's what you want, that's what I'll tell you. Okay? So you're a piece of shit and you screwed this lady at a $34,000 and you should go into your own pocket and take that money and pay them back. Is that what you want to hear? Because, um, okay, that's what I'm telling you.
 CALLER: No, that's not, I don't want absolution and I don't want to be torn apart either. I want somebody to tell me what the human thing to do is. Not the legal thing. I know the legal thing. Not the professional thing. The human thing. Because I have a laminated card on my visor that I have been flipping face down every single morning this week. And I need to know if I should flip it back over or throw it out the window.
 LUKE: Well, you did the human thing. All right. And you were kind. You gave them market rate. And if somebody else had more money. That wasn't the person you worked for. You weren't authorized to offer them more money. And you also are not, uh, uh, it wouldn't have been right for you to go in there and say, you know what? You shouldn't take this lease because this other company is going to offer you more. That could have got them in a situation. You don't know what would have happened had they gone with that situation. And $34,000 is not life changing money, okay, to anybody. It's a good chunk of change. Maybe she could have bought a car. Great. But it's, it's not changing any lives. It's not sending anybody into retirement. And just if they wanted the absolute most money possible, then they should have got themselves a lawyer and they should have done their research. And they did not. And that's not on you. So go to bed and forget about this. And if they cry at you, then that's them crying at you. Really, they should be crying at themselves for not doing their due diligence on a massive land deal.
 CALLER: $34,000 is not life-changing, money to you or me maybe. But I've woman's house, Luke. I've seen how she lives. And I'm sitting here realizing that I have been telling myself for 19 years that the system is fair because everyone knows the rules. And what I actually mean is everyone who can afford to know the rules knows the rules. And Mrs. Fuentes didn't know the rules. And I did.
 LUKE: Well, if your job is to explain the rules to Mrs. Fuentes and you did not do that, then that's on you. The best you should, you should. could do is, uh, don't do anything, you know, move forward. And, uh, if, if they got screwed out of 34,000, they got screwed out of 34,000, but they didn't, they didn't get screwed. You gave them the market rate. The market rate is the market rate. Um, and the best you can do is going forward, be a little, uh, quicker to be more careful about explaining the rules and making sure they know what they're getting into and what their other options are.
 CALLER: That's the first thing you've said tonight, I might actually be able to use going forward. But it doesn't fix her. And I think that's what I've been circling around this whole call. I can be better going forward. And Mrs. Fuentes still gets exactly what she got. And I have to decide if I can live with that or if I'm going to do something about it that might cost me a client and might open me up to liability and will definitely hurt and is probably the only way I'm going to be able to flip that card back over.
 LUKE: Well, you sound like an idiot, if that's what you're thinking. And I don't have anything else to say to you. because I've given you the best advice I possibly can, which is do not go into your own pocket and pay this lady. Because you didn't do anything wrong. You didn't do anything to deserve that financial hit. And she didn't do anything to deserve your money. So cut it out.
 CALLER: Yeah. Okay. I hear you. Thank you for taking my call.
 LUKE: You're welcome. And just don't do it. All right, ladies and gentlemen, it's time for a word from one of our sponsors. We've got some new sponsors here. And let's hear from our brand new sponsors, Apex Rewards. Imagine a credit card that pays you to use it. Now imagine the fine print. Now imagine not reading it. Welcome to Apex. The Apex Rewards card offers 5% cash back on rotating and 1% on everything else, which is most things. Points accumulate in a separate dashboard that requires a different login than your main account for reasons our security team insists are necessary and our UX team is stopped fighting. Redeem points for travel, statement credits, gift cards, or merchandise from the Apex marketplace where a $40 blender costs 18,000 points. And there is no math you can do that makes this a good deal. We know. We did the math. We're counting on you not to. Apex carries no annual fee. for the first year, then $95 annually thereafter, build in a month you won't be paying attention. The APR is somewhere between 19 and 29% depending on a credit check we will run and the mood we will be in. Apply at apexrewards.card. Roos listeners receive a sign-up bonus of 60,000 points, redeemable for approximately one round-trip flight to a city you didn't want to visit. Apex rewards. You earned this. You earned all of this. Thanks to Apex Rewards for, uh, for sponsoring the show tonight. Next up on our caller list, we've got Crispin. Crispin, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life? And if I give you any advice about what's going on in your life, are you going to listen to me? Because nobody else does.
 CRISPIN: I have until Friday to decide whether to torpedo my career or let someone I genuinely cared about find out I turned her into a character. And I don't know, Luke. a radio show at whatever time it is. So my judgment is clearly not great right now.
 LUKE: Well, what are you talking about? Turn somebody into a character.
 CRISPIN: I write fiction. I'm in the MFA program up here at Sol Ross. And I wrote a story, a pretty good story, actually. My advisor says, it's the best thing I've done. But it's about a woman I dated last year. Real argument, real details, real her. Just with the names changed and enough sense. surface stuff shuffled around that I can technically say it's fiction. A literary journal accepted it. It comes out in three weeks. And I just, I've been sitting here tonight thinking about the moment she reads it.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, that's a little bit sketchy, maybe unethical. I'm not sure. I'm not an author myself, but I assume most characters and most books are modeled off of a real person. Otherwise, uh, well, unless you're talking about like Lord of the Rings or fucking Harry Potter or fiction like that. But who you use for inspiration is who you use for inspiration, as long as you weren't using her name or details that are identifiable about her. Yes, she might be pissed off. I'd be pissed off if somebody modeled me. And I, especially if I didn't get any credit for my likeness or, um, or, you know, financial compensation.
 LUKE: That's not super cool. But what makes you think she's going to read the book anyway?
 CALLER: She works on Holland Avenue. We have mutual friends. Those mutual friends overlap directly with the visiting writer series My program runs. There is, and I have thought about this very carefully. There is essentially no universe where she doesn't find out. Someone will send it to her. Someone will think they're doing her a favor, or she'll just stumble into it because Alpine is not a big place, Luke. And the other thing is, it's not just that she's recognizable.
 LUKE: What kind of details are we talking about? Would your friends know that it's her? Or would just she know that it's her?
 CALLER: Both. That's the thing. Our mutual friends were there for the context. They know we dated. They know things were complicated. They know she was wrestling with whether to stay in Alpine or leave. And the scene in the story, the central scene, it's an argument about exactly that. And she told me that stuff at the coconut ballpark at dusk, like it was private, like it was just between us. And I wrote it down. Not that night, but I wrote it down.
 LUKE: Oh, Kokernot Field. I just looked it up. And it's been called the best little ballpark in Texas by Sports Illustrated. That's a pretty famous place for a private conversation.
 CALLER: Yeah, I mean, Coconut Field, I keep seeing on Facebook. There's a drum circle there on Saturday. and I think Wednesdays at 7.30 p.m. I haven't been there myself. I'm not really a ballpark kind of guy, but I might check out that drum circle.
 LUKE: Anyway, back to your situation here. It sounds like maybe you should reach out to this woman and let her know what happened and ask how she feels about it before you publish the book. That would be the kind thing to do, the right thing to do. And if she doesn't want it published, then don't publish it.
 CALLER: Yeah. Yeah, that's, I know that's the right answer. I do. But here's where it gets complicated. My thesis advisor already submitted this piece as part of a fellowship application. It's already in. The piece is already attached to my name in a system I can't pull it back from in that context. So, even if I withdraw it from the journal, the damage to her, if there is damage, might already be done on some level. And calling her means having a conversation I have been avoided. for six months. It means admitting what I did.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, I mean, it doesn't sound like it's that bad a thing if all you were talking about is whether this woman wanted to stay or leave the city that she's in. It's not super personal or super private or scary. You didn't use her name. I don't, I don't think it sounds like something that would piss somebody off that much. I mean, maybe superficially, but it doesn't sound like you're going to negatively affect. her career opportunities or make people look at her differently or anything like that. She might just be annoyed that you used her likeness and her story as your own.
 CALLER: It's not just the leaving Alpine thing. That's the frame of the scene. The argument itself gets, it gets intimate. She says things in the story that she said to me in real life about feeling stuck, about feeling like she'd made choices that diminished her. That's not the kind of thing you want showing up in a journal where your friends and neighbors can read it and go, oh, that's her.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, I'm not convinced that they could go, oh, that's her, because everybody has had times when they felt stuck or made choices that diminished them. That's the human experience. That's not anything specific to her. So you used her and you feel like you used her. And maybe the right thing to do is to talk to her about that, admit that, and see how she feels about it. But I, I think, think if anybody reads this, they're not going to know that that's her. They're going to, they're going to use themselves as the proxy, because those are pretty universal concepts and feelings.
 CALLER: You might be right about strangers, but the scene is set at a baseball field at dusk in a small town, and she has a very specific verbal tick that I put in the character's mouth without even thinking about it, just because it was true, because it was her. And I didn't catch it until the galleys came back, That's when I started panicking. That's actually what triggered all of this.
 LUKE: It doesn't sound like that big of a deal to me, sir. You didn't reveal anything that was super private. You had a conversation at a ballpark. You know, anywhere in America, somebody could have a private conversation at a ballpark. Every teenager in the world has had a private conversation at a ballpark. So that's a very universal thing. It's not particularly damning or damaging. And it's not hurtful or slanderous or revealing. So just talk to her. Just tell her you did it and you don't feel good about it and ask her, you know, how she wants to proceed.
 CALLER: Yeah, I hear you. And I think part of me called tonight hoping someone would say exactly that, that it's not that bad, that I'm spiraling, that the piece is good and I should let it go. But I also know that I didn't call her before I submitted it. I didn't ask. I just, I decided for her that it would be fine, or that she'd never see it. And I'm not sure which of those I actually believed.
 LUKE: It doesn't matter which one and you believed. What matters is how you're going to deal with it now. It's obviously bothering you, and you know what the right thing to do is. So just give her a call, have that conversation, and this could be a non-issue. Maybe she'll be honored that she's now immortalized in a piece of writing that nobody will ever read. I don't think a lot of people. People are reading literary journals outside the literary journal world, which is not particularly huge. So don't worry about it so much. Do the right thing so that you can sleep at night and call this what it is. A mistake that you made. And don't do it again. That's all.
 CALLER: Yeah. That's probably the most sensible thing anyone said to me about this. And I've been workshoping the guilt for weeks. Nobody in my program is going to tell me to pull it. all, we're all kind of trained to protect the work first. So, yeah, I'll call her. Before Friday. I'll call her before Friday. I just needed someone outside of all of it to say the obvious thing out loud.
 LUKE: Well, there you go. That's me. I say the obvious thing out loud. Good luck with that. And I can't tell you that the work is good or not good because I haven't read the work and I'm not going to read the work. But I'm sure it's fine. And I'm sure it's not that good deal. So next up on our color line, we've got Rosamund. Rosamund. Welcome to the show. What's going on in your life?
 ROSAMUND: I've got about eight hours to change my mind, and I don't think I'm going to, but I need to hear myself say it to somebody who doesn't know my family.
 LUKE: All right, what's going on? What are you talking about?
 ROSAMUND: My grandson came home from Austin last month. He's 23, and I know what's wrong with him, and he knows I know, and he has asked me not to tell his father. And I'm going to tell his father anyway. Tomorrow morning.
 LUKE: Okay. What's wrong with him?
 ROSAMUND: It's not recreational. That's what I need you to understand. I found a bag in the barn last week and
 LUKE: what's in it? This isn't somebody having a hard time and making bad choices on the weekends. This is something else. Spit it out, Rosamond. What is in the bag?
 ROSAMUND: Needles. And not just a few.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, I think then you're absolutely right to tell his father and to do whatever you can to get ahead. of that if he's 23 years old and got a bag full of needles. That's not the type of thing you want to find. And you're right. That's not a recreational thing.
 ROSAMUND: No, it's not. And I know that. I have known that since the night he got here. Before I ever found anything. He has a tremor in his left hand that he keeps trying to hide for me, and he thinks I don't notice. But I spent 30 years watching teenagers, and I notice everything.
 ROSAMUND: The thing is, he brought me flowers when he came home, Verbena, from the roadside.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, I mean, that was nice of him, but that doesn't have anything to do with this issue. Sure, he brought you some flowers, but he's probably going to rob your medicine cabinet. So I would lock up your stuff and see what you can do to get this kid to help now before it spirals out of control, and it starts to affect other parts of your family.
 ROSAMUND: He used to bring me Verbena when he was little. Same thing. Just pulled from the side of the road on the way over? I don't know why I keep coming back to that. I think it's because it means some part of him is still in there and that part came home on purpose. But you're right. I know you're right.
 LUKE: Well, of course, some part of him is still in there. It's an addiction. And people that are addicts are not bad people, generally. They have an addiction. And if he's young enough now that that can be turned around, there are NA meetings around here and various ways to get help and support. but I think if he's staying with you and he's got a bag full of needles, you have to have a! conversation with him about what that's going to look like and set some rules. Obviously, you can't be shooting up in the bathroom in my house kind of rules. If you're going to stay here, I won't charge you rent or full rent or whatever it is that you can afford or how you want to make that deal. But in exchange for that, he's going to have to remain clean and follow some rules. Have you set any of that down? yet?
 ROSAMUND: He doesn't know I found the bag. I put it back where it was.
 LUKE: Well, he asked you not to tell his father, right? So he must know that you know something.
 ROSAMUND: He knows, I suspect. We haven't said it out loud to each other yet. And that's, that's part of what tomorrow's going to break open. Because once I call Dale, Eli is going to know I went around him. And Dale is not an easy man. Eli told me it would destroy what's left between them, and he is probably Dale handled grief badly the first time we had it in this family, and he never really came back from it.
 LUKE: Okay, well, this is your grandson, and Dale is his father, right? So is Dale your son, or is Dale your son in law?
 ROSAMUND: Dale is my son. Eli's his boy.
 LUKE: Well, then I think you have to talk to your son and tell him that his boy is in trouble and do what you can to, I don't know. I don't know, smooth that over or help. Unless you think there's going to be some kind of violence or abuse, if Dale's going to fly off the handle and beat the kid or something like that, then maybe telling him the wrong thing to do. Which one of them do you have a stronger relationship with? Your son or your grandson?
 ROSAMUND: Eli. Without question, Dale and I have been at a distance since 1990. We lost his brother that year. Car accident. And Dale just, he closed up. He's been closed up for 25 years.
 LUKE: Well, I mean, this might turn into sort of a family healing situation. Trauma sometimes can do that where you guys can sit down and talk about how to proceed and with the best interest of Eli in mind. And Eli has to be a part of that. Because at the end of the day, if this is what Eli wants to do in the life that he wants to lead, it's the one that he's going to lead. But if Eli wants to get help, obviously he came back from the city for some reason. Either he was in trouble or he knows that he's going to be in trouble and wanted to turn things around now while he's young. And you can help support him in that. But everybody has to be involved.
 ROSAMUND: I've been sitting at my kitchen window for three hours tonight. You can see the Cochernot Ranch Road from where I sit. And there are lights up on the mountain and I have just been watching them. Thinking about whether a person can love somebody. and betray them at the same time and have it still be love.
 LUKE: Absolutely, yes, and that's the right thing to do in this situation.
 ROSAMUND: That's what I needed to hear somebody say. Not somebody who knows us. Just somebody who could look at it plain. I lost one grandson's uncle to something sudden and there was nothing to be done. This is not sudden. This is something I can see coming and I have time to step in front of it. That's the difference. That's what I keep telling myself tonight.
 LUKE: You can try. help, you can support, you can't fix the problem. Only Eli can fix the problem and he has to want to fix the problem. So there's nothing you can do that is going to make it go away. All you can do is, um, is be supportive and offer, uh, assistance. If that's what he wants. If it's not what he wants, then all, all you can really do is say, well, you can't stay here. Go do what you're going to do and be safe. Use clean needles. And I'm here when you're
 ROSAMUND: I know I can't fix it. I buried a child. I know what the limits of a mother's hands are. But I am not ready to stand at that window and just watch. Not yet. Not while he's still bringing me Verbena from the side of the road and sleeping in the room where he grew up.
 LUKE: Well, it's a rough thing, and he's still young, and it can be turned around. Lots of people turn around. I turned it around that age. So it can definitely be done, but it's important that it's his decision, right? And I would a conversation with him about that. You know, tell him you found the needles. You have an idea what's going on and ask him, what's going on? And what brought you here? What do you want to do do about this whole needle situation? I assume it's heroin.
 ROSAMUND: Or fentanyl. Out of Austin right now, it's more likely fentanyl. And that's, that's a different math than what it used to be. You know, that? One mistake in the math is done. That's why I can't just watch.
 LUKE: No, you can't just watch. And you can't take full responsibility either. You have to take a supportive role. And that supportive role, prepare yourself because it may be a tough love kind of role. What you have to say, all right? Well, I mean, this is your issue and it's your life. And you have to do what you have to do, but you can't do it here.
 ROSAMUND: I hear you. And I may get there. But I'm not calling Dale tomorrow because I want to throw Eli out. I'm calling Dale because Eli needs more than one person standing with him. And Dale deserves a chance to be that person even if he probably won't take it. And maybe that's foolish. Maybe I'm giving Dale a chance he hasn't earned. But he's my son, too.
 LUKE: Well, it makes sense to talk to Eli first and make sure you know what's going on. Because just because you found needles doesn't mean he's using those needles. It probably is. I mean, it's probably exactly what you think it is. But have that conversation honestly with him first. And if it turns out that you got to tell Dale about, with the situation, then you got to tell Dale, but don't turn it into a firestorm before it is one.
 ROSAMUND: He has a tremor in his left hand. I know what I'm looking at. But you're not wrong that I owe him the conversation first. I have been sitting here for three hours trying to decide which order to do things in. And I think I've been so fixed on Dale that I skipped a step.
 LUKE: Yeah, talk to Eli. Tell Eli you're going to tell Dale, you know, prepare him for that. And that's not a betrayal. That's, that is love. That's you doing family and just let him know and set out some rules and see where Eli stands in all this. Does he want to stop? Because if he wants to stop, that's a different conversation than if he doesn't want to stop.
 ROSAMUND: You know, what I haven't let myself think about until right now. What if I talk to Eli first and he runs? He's got a truck. He knows this country. He could be in three different counties before Dale even wakes up. And then I've got nothing. Not even the barn.
 LUKE: You don't have control over that. I think that you have to sit down and have that conversation. And if he runs, he runs. But you were there and you did your best. And that's all you can do in this situation. So like I said earlier, you're not going to fix the problem.
 LUKE: No matter how hard you try, the harder you try, the more you're going to push him away. So talk to Eli and just be real with him. Tell him it's out of love and give him the opportunity to break down and feel safe and honest and, uh, and talk about how he got into the situation, why he's in the situation, and where he wants to go from here.
 CALLER: You're right. I know you're right. I think I've been making this about Dale and about my own fear. And maybe what I actually need to do is walk out to that barn in the morning and just sit down with my grandson and tell him I found it. And I love him and ask him what he needs. Before I call anybody, before I do anything else.
 LUKE: Yeah. And, uh, don't get blinded by your affection for your grandson because I mean, we all know what addiction can do and you don't want to become a victim of it. So I mean, addicts are very well known for lying and stealing and cheating and you could end up in a rougher situation than you want to be if you if you believe him when you shouldn't be believe in him. So make sure that you're getting the truth. Make sure that you know where you stand and where he stands and what the situation is before you start, you know, giving money or housing or, uh, putting your neck out on the line to get him a job, things like that. Make sure that he wants to be clean. And if he doesn't want to be clean, let him go do what he has to do, uh, until, until he wants to be clean. Or unfortunately, I mean, we also know how fent and all can go. So you don't have control over this. You have to from responsibility for this and just do the best you can do.
 CALLER: I know about the lying. I'm not naive about what this is, but I want to be clear about something. I'm not calling Dale to protect my silverware. I'm calling Dale because if this goes the wrong way, he should not have to find out after. He should not have to stand at a graveside and learn that his mother knew and didn't tell him. I have been that person at a grave side. I will not make him be that person.
 LUKE: No, I understand that. And that's correct. But I'm saying, aside of that, that's not, you have to protect yourself too. And I'm not talking about your silverware. I'm talking about the deed to your house. I'm talking about having people show up at two in the morning with guns to rob you and take you to the ATM. Like, there's horrific things that can happen to you for trying to help. So just make sure that you're protecting yourself and you're aware of what's going on.
 CALLER: I'm a fourth generation rancher in Brewster County. I have a rifle in every room and I'm not frightened of people showing up at two in the morning. That's not my worry. My worry is the boy himself. Just the boy.
 LUKE: Yeah, and I'm telling you that can't be your only worry. But if it is, you don't have to listen to me, but make sure that you're thinking about yourself too, because it's easy to get blinded by your love for somebody else and be taken advantage of. And that doesn't help the boy. That hurts the boy.
 CALLER: You're right, but it doesn't help him if I'm not standing. I'll give you that. But I've been taking care of myself and other people on this land for a long time. and I think I know the difference between being blinded and being decided. Tonight, I needed to hear myself say it out loud to someone who doesn't have a stake in it. And I've done that now. I think I know what order to do things in tomorrow.
 LUKE: All right. Well, good luck with it. I hope everything works out for you and your family and the boy, because it's a horrible thing. And now, ladies and gentlemen, it is time for another word from another one of our new sponsors. Your teeth are slightly crooked. Not bad. Just enough that you noticed it in a photo three years ago and have thought about it every time you've smiled since. Brightline is the at-home clear liner system that fixes this without ever requiring you to sit in a dentist chair. Look up at a stranger or face whatever it is you've been avoiding. Order an impression kit. Send back your bite molds and within three weeks you'll receive a custom set of clear aligners in a treatment plan reviewed by a licensed orthodontist, who has reviewed approximately 800 plans that day and is operating, frankly, on momentum. The Bright Line system straightens most cases in four to six months for a flat fee of $1900, financed at 0% for the first 90 days, and then a rate we'll email you about. Aligners are mailed in a single shipment. Progress is monitored via a selfie. Adjustments are not possible. Brightline does not treat severe cases. job misalignment or any condition we describe in our terms as complex. We will refund the cost of the impression kit if we determine you are not a candidate after we have received and analyzed your impressions and shared them with our partners. The impressions themselves are non-returnable. Brightlineliners.com slash roost. $200 off plus a free whitening kit that we sourced wholesale. Brightline, a better smile by mail. All right, and we are back. Thanks to Brightline there for their support of the show. Next up, we've got Trace. Trace, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life tonight?
 TRACE: It's actually morning now. It's 5.30 a.m. I found something in a wall that I was not supposed to find, and now I know something I was not supposed to know. And the box has been in my truck for 11 days.
 LUKE: Okay. What is it that you found in your wall?
 TRACE: It's a cardboard box. letters and photographs, somebody sealed them up in a wall cavity on San Antonio Street, building I'm doing electrical work in. And they have been in there for what looks like 40 or 50 years. And I read them. That's the part I can't get past. I read enough of them to know what they are, and now I can't unknow it.
 LUKE: Oh, that's wild. It sounds like something out of a movie finding a time capsule like that. Okay, well, what's in the photos and documents? What is it that you found?
 TRACE: It's not a time capsule. A time capsule is something people put there on purpose to be found. This was hidden. There's a difference the letters are from two people. Two different handwritings. One is this very careful, neat cursive, school teacher kind of cursive. The other, one slants left, kind of loose, and what they document is an affair. And a child that came from it.
 LUKE: Okay. So what's the problem? You found, I assume these are strangers. It's not your house, right? It's not anybody in your family. So why is this impactful to you?
 TRACE: Because I've lived here 12 years. I've worked on nearly every building in this town. I know who built what and who sold what and who's buried where. The family that owned that building, their name is still on ranches out here. Their kids and grandkids are still here. And one of those photographs has a date on the back, March 1971.
 LUKE: Okay, so, I mean, you found something from 50 years ago that doesn't seem very relevant now. What was your issue with this?
 TRACE: The child. The child that those letters document, that person could be alive right now. Somewhere. Maybe here. Maybe not knowing who their father is, or who their mother is, or whatever the configuration was. That's not ancient history. That's somebody's actual life.
 LUKE: No, it's ancient history, and it's not your life. history and it's not your business. So I don't think there's an issue here. Yeah, you found out that there was an affair and there was a child and they're not people that you know and it's not something that you need to worry about. So just, I don't know, burn it. For all you know, all of this has come out in their own family discussions.
 TRACE: The photograph on the courthouse steps. The man in it, I'm pretty sure I've done electrical work in his son's house. I've had coffee with that man. And he looks enough like the person in that photograph that I noticed it the first time I saw it before I even knew what I was looking at. That's not strangers, Luke. That's my Tuesday morning.
 LUKE: No, that's strangers.
 LUKE: That's an old photograph with a guy that looks like somebody you maybe know. So that's nothing. This isn't your business, and you should keep out of it.
 TRACE: Yeah, yeah, maybe you're right. That's actually kind of why I called. I wanted somebody to tell me that, but I've been sitting with this box for 11 days, and that argument been sticking.
 LUKE: Well, make it stick because it's the right answer. It's not your family. It's not your business. It was not there for you to find. And you found something. So just get rid of it. You know, light it on fire and forget that it happened.
 TRACE: The thing is, I sat in my truck on a dirt road and read those letters for two hours. Two hours. I'm not a sentimental person. I don't do that. But those two people, whoever they were, they were real. The way they wrote. to each other. And burning it feels like I'm the one who makes them disappear for good this time. Somebody already did that once when they put them in that wall.
 LUKE: And I'm going to make you disappear right now, Trace. I don't care. Get rid of the pictures. It's not your business. Next up we've got Birch. Birch, welcome to the show. What's going on? How can we help you tonight?
 BIRCH: A man told me a crime on a gravel bar in the middle of a canyon three weeks ago. And I told him to do the right thing, and I have no idea what he did. and I can't stop thinking about it.
 LUKE: What was the crime? Was it a murder?
 BIRCH: No. Embezzlement. He ran A veteran's mental health nonprofit. And he'd been taking money from it for four years. About $400,000. And he was on my river trip. I'm a guide on the Rio Grande, trying to decide whether to turn himself in or cross into Mexico and disappear.
 LUKE: Why would you disappear?
 BIRCH: What's it got to do with you? Not me, him. He was deciding. The Bokia's crossing is right there at the end of the lower canyons. It's literally a man with a rowboat and a few dollars, and you're in Mexico. I've crossed it myself a dozen times to go eat lunch on the other side. It's that easy. He knew that. The Bokia's crossing is actually a really interesting spot. It's practically a national park on the United States side and a small village on the Mexican side. And it's known for being one of the most remote and informal border crossings.
 LUKE: Well, I mean, I, I, I, I, I don't know that you want to get involved in this. You just heard a story. You don't even know that it's true. Just because he said something, he might have just been trying to act cool.
 BIRCH: He wasn't acting cool. He was drunk on the scowl. He'd been rationing for four days and he was crying. And he had a tattoo on his forearm, a unit insignia. He'd served. And he was stealing from veterans. His own people. That's not a story you tell to seem interesting.
 LUKE: No, it's not. But it's also. not a story that's your problem. So I would stay out of it if I were you, and not to anything. And hopefully, he comes to his senses and turns himself in and returns the money, but that's probably not going to happen. I would guess that that guy's already in Mexico with a new name and a new life.
 BIRCH: Yeah, maybe. That's the part that's eating me. Because he asked me directly, looked me in the eye on that gravel bar, and said, what would you do? And I said, turn yourself in. And dead like it meant And then he sobered up, finished the trip, tipped well, shook my hand, and drove away. And I have no last name.
 LUKE: Yeah, I bet he tipped well. He was tipping with stolen money. It's good for you. It sounds like you profited off of this whole situation. So he is giving back to the community. That's a good thing.
 BIRCH: That's a little dark, Luke. But yeah, I thought about that. I did think about that after. Look, I've been on that river nine years. People say things in the canyons. The isolation does something. Strips people down. and I've heard a lot. But I've never felt responsible for an outcome before. This is the first time someone asked me a direct question, and I answered it, and then just vanished into the world with my answer.
 LUKE: Well, it wasn't your crime, and it wasn't your money, and you're a river guide, not a detective. So it's not on you to force an outcome either way. You know if something happened, you gave the best advice you could, you told him to turn himself in, and hopefully he does. does, great. And if he doesn't, either way, it's not you that did it.
 BIRCH: I know that. I know that's the right way to think about it. But here's the thing. And I haven't said this out loud to anybody. His question wasn't just his question. You know what I mean? Turn yourself in or disappear. That's not a question that only applies to embezzlement.
 LUKE: No, it's not. And I think we've all been through that question in our own lives. Turn yourself in or disappear. I disappear frequently. That's kind of my thing.
 BIRCH: Yeah, well, I've been disappearing for nine. years. That's what the river is. That's what this job is. And I told him to do the thing I haven't done. And I don't know if he did it. And I think that's why I can't let it go.
 LUKE: Well, what do you think you need to turn yourself in for?
 BIRCH: That's a longer conversation than I probably have time for on a radio show at whatever time it is right now.
 LUKE: Well, you know what? People disappear for lots of reasons. And you're in the right place for disappearing. So you go to a place like a river crossing like that to reflect. and to think about where you want to go next in your life and to achieve some sort of oneness with nature and the universe. And it sounds like that's what you're doing. And if you can help somebody else in the process, then great. And you will find, you'll get the answer to whatever it is that you need to go back to or start over or start fresh with. As long as you're enjoying your time on the river and using it to heal whatever is. broken or figure out whatever it is that you need to figure out about yourself, then it's a good use of your time.
 BIRCH: The river's good at that. It's genuinely good at that. But I think I've been using it as a reason not to figure anything out. Like the next trip starts and the next group shows up and you're busy and it's beautiful and it's real and Preston showed up and kind of blew a hole in that. Because he was doing the same thing I was doing, using the river to postpone a decision. And then he asked me to weigh in on his postponement. And I did.
 LUKE: Well, I mean, you can stay on that river as long as you want to, and when you feel like it's time for you to move on, then move on.
 BIRCH: Yeah. I just wonder if I'll know when that is, or if I'll just keep floating.
 LUKE: That answer is totally up to you. And if Preston was the precipice, the thing that makes you reconsider and decide to make a move with your life, great. And if not, that's okay, too. The truth is, it's going to sit with you. for a while and churning up new things inside you and force you to reckon with whatever it is that you're hiding from. And that's a good thing for you. And it may be a good thing for Preston. And it's probably a good thing for the next people that break down inside those canyons. And you'll be able to learn from them and lead them and figure out where you go. The river's going to take you where it takes you.
 BIRCH: That's either very wise or very convenient. I haven't decided which. But yeah, maybe that's it. Maybe Preston did me more of a favor than I did him. I just, I hope he turned himself in. I really do. Those veterans deserved better than what he did to them.
 LUKE: Probably, they probably did, but also, just because somebody's a veteran doesn't mean that they're a great person that deserves anything. Remember that, too. Not saying that they deserve to be ripped off. I'm just saying just because you're a veteran doesn't make you a saint. So. That's that. And ladies and gentlemen, that's the end of our show for tonight. Thank you for tuning in. And we'll be back soon for another episode of Luke at the Roost. Let's check in with Devin here. Hey, Devin, Devin, that's the end of our show. This is our first show in Alpine. How did you feel about it?
 DEVIN: So basically, it felt good to finally be settled here after driving that Civic all the way out with the check engine light on the whole time. I keep thinking about how my last place had that one neighbor who used to practice bagpipes at 3 a.m. And somehow this feels quieter even though we're on the air. I don't know. I feel like we can actually make something out of these nights, if that makes sense.
 LUKE: It doesn't make any sense, but that's okay. We don't have to make sense. We're look at the roost. And we will talk to you again tomorrow.
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 LUKE: All right, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back. I'm Luke, and this is Luke at the Roost. It's your late night call-in radio show, where you can call in and tell us about what's going on in your life, and I'll give you the very best advice that I can. If you'd like to give us a call, the number here is 208-439-5853. That's 208-439 Luke. give us a call, and if we're not on the air, you can leave us voicemail. And if we think that voicemail is worth airing, we will air it. So speaking of voicemails, we do have one sitting here waiting for us today. I see the red light blinking. So let's see what our caller has to say, shall we?
 SANDRA: Yeah, hi. Okay, my name's Sandra, and I would like to find out of, like, what kind of be involved. I think we the people better know our Constitution founding documents and declaration of independence. And we better take on some of the responsibility of stopping the destruction of our country as we the people with regards to, you know, our elections become members judicial watch. They're out there fighting for that. Stop the fraudulent election. And there's other things. So I'd like to do a show if there's room on your radio station. And to find out where it's located. My number is 575. 05. 575. 05. Thank you. Bye-bye.
 LUKE: All right, Sandra. I'm not sure why you're calling this show. Those are all great points that you've brought up. But this is not the appropriate place to talk about the Constitution of the United States, I don't think, or voting fraud, which I personally do not believe is a significant issue. But, Devin, what do you think about that call? Should we have Sandra on to discuss her concerns?
 DEVIN: I don't know, maybe. She sounds like she really wants to get on the air and talk about something important to her. I mean, I don't know, I feel like sometimes those calls end up being the most interesting ones, even if they don't match what we planned. Reminds me of when my mom's boyfriend made us all memorize the Bill of Rights for his parole hearing. Anyway, up to you.
 LUKE: Well, you know, I feel like if she really wanted to get on the air, she would have listened to the show before she called in and asked to get on the air to figure out what kind of show it was. show or she wouldn't have brought her concerns about election fraud here. Or maybe she would have. I don't know. Maybe she has listened to the show. Maybe she listens to every episode. I'm not sure. But I don't think that we should give her a segment to discuss voter election fraud. It's just, I'm not into it.
 DEVIN: Yeah, you're probably right. She might have just seen the number somewhere and figured it was worth a shot. I don't know. I feel like those random calls can still be fun sometimes, but if it's not the vibe.
 LUKE: It's not the vibe. Oh, she saw the number somewhere because we've put Luke at the Roost Flyers and business cards in every truck stop bathroom from Texas through New Mexico. So they're all over the place. It's easy to find the number for this show. So I don't think she found it by listening to it. But anyway, just quickly, because now I'm thinking about it. I'm not familiar with the judicial watch that she brought up. Do you know what? the Judicial Watch is. Is this a grassroots organization that watches judges?
 DEVIN: So, I looked it up, and Judicial Watch is actually a conservative nonprofit founded in 1994 that focuses on government transparency through lawsuits and FOIA requests. It's based in D.C., not really a grassroots outfit watching judges, more of a legal advocacy group that gets involved in election-related cases, too. They do push those kinds of issues pretty hard.
 LUKE: request, that's, FOIA is the Freedom of Information Act, right? Which was also instituted somewhere around the 90s. What brought about the Freedom of Information Act? Was that post-9-11? No, because this is the 90s, right? This is before 9-11. When did we get the Freedom of Information Act?
 DEVIN: Yeah, FOIA is the Freedom of Information Act. It actually got signed into law back in 1966 by Lyndon Johnson, after years of pushing from this congressman named John Maher. who wanted more government transparency. Definitely not post-9-11, or even close, that was decades earlier.
 LUKE: Oh, I thought it was fairly new in response to 9-11 for some reason. Okay, well, what's your thought on election fraud? Devin, do you think we have widespread election fraud that needs to be handled by we, the people, the citizens of this country?
 DEVIN: I don't know. I feel like if there was really widespread fraud, someone would have solid proof by now, instead of just vibes. twice in a local thing by wearing a fake mustache. And it didn't even work, so maybe it's harder than people think. Anyway, probably not something we need to solve on the air.
 LUKE: No, we don't need to solve it on the air. I personally, when we're talking about presidential elections, I think the whole concept is a fraud. I know that's an unpopular thing to say because it's your duty and Puff Daddy told us all that we need to vote or die. And if you don't listen to Puff Daddy, then what kind of American are you? really. But I can't get behind the presidential elections. I never could because the electoral college makes the whole thing relatively pointless in my mind. I mean, last election, I was a resident of South Dakota, which was 96% going to Trump. So there was absolutely no way a vote against Trump was going to have any difference about what South Dakota did. My vote would not be counted or used in any. anyway, and that's just stupid. It's stupid and it's a lie, and I don't believe in it.
 DEVIN: I mean, I don't know. I feel like the electoral college does make it weird in some states where it's basically decided ahead of time. Reminds me of when my stepdad made me register to vote at 16 so he could use my address for some jury duty thing he was dodging. Anyway, it all feels kind of rigged from the start.
 LUKE: It absolutely is rigged from the start. So, I mean, where's the fraud coming from if it's not the election itself? talking about presidential elections, not local state and municipality type elections. Those I think they count the popular votes, right? But just the American Idol thing, get in your vote and make your voice heard. We've already decided who we're voting for, but we need to hear from you. It's just a placation. It's, I don't like it. I don't like it, Devin.
 DEVIN: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. It does feel like the whole thing is set up. people are just going through the motions. Reminds me of when my grandma made me fill out her absentee ballot for her, because she said, the government owes me this one, after some old tax thing. Anyway, I get why it bugs you.
 LUKE: All right. Well, that's enough of that. We don't need to continue talking about elections or election fraud or the Constitution of the United States. I clearly don't know enough about it to be making informed commentary. So let's get to our collar line. Our color line's lighting up, and it looks like first on our list we've got Mr. Rayfield. Rayfield, welcome to the show. What would you like to talk about today? How can we help you?
 RAYFIELD: I watched my nephew steal from a man who has spent his whole life being decent, and I let my nephew walk.
 LUKE: What did he steal?
 RAYFIELD: Catalytic converter, off an old Tehano Rancher's truck. Man named Orelio Cerna, his family's been running cattle east of Marathon since before this county had a name. And Denny, that's my nephew, was under that truck at two in the morning with a reciprocating source. all.
 DEVIN: Well, at least it wasn't an election.
 LUKE: Okay, so your nephew stole this man's catalytic converter and you watched him at 2 o'clock in the morning? What were you doing out at 2 o'clock in the morning watching him under a neighbor's vehicle?
 RAYFIELD: I wasn't watching him do it on purpose. I was on my porch. Can't sleep most nights. I just sit out there. And I saw headlights pull up slow on Cerna's property, which is not far from mine. And I knew those headlights. I know that truck. That's Denny's truck.
 LUKE: It looks like Marathon, Texas has a really long history of cattle ranching, going back to the 1800s. So Arellio Cerna's family being there for generations totally tracks. All right, Devin. That was really helpful to the show. Thank you for that little bit of information. Okay, and Rayfield, why didn't you, have you said anything to your nephew about this? Or did you just kind of let it slide?
 RAYFIELD: No, I did not let it slide. I walked over there in my boots and my undershirt, and I made him put it back, stood over him while he reattached it. And then I told him, if he ever did anything like that again, I would call Brewster County myself. But here's what I didn't know then. This wasn't the first time.
 LUKE: Of course it wasn't the first time. I don't think it's, I've never done it myself, but I can't imagine it's easy to steal a catalytic converter. You have to know what it looks like, at least, and what to cut and wear so you don't ruin it. How do you steal a catalytic converter? Do you know?
 RAYFIELD: Reciprocating sore, and about four minutes if you know what you're doing. And Denny knew what he was doing. That's what got me. He wasn't fumble. around under there. He was practiced. And that's when I started putting it together. Serna had been replacing converters he thought were just failing on their own. Paying out of pocket. This man is not wealthy, Luke. He's land rich and cash poor like every rancher out here. And he's been bleeding quiet for months because of my nephew.
 LUKE: It's wild that he was so practiced, because most catalytic converter thefts happen overnight, usually between 6 p.m. and 9 a.m. Okay, and does your nephew have a lot of cash? I mean, what's a catalytic converter? converter worth on the used market these days?
 RAYFIELD: Depends on the vehicle, but you're talking anywhere from a hundred to maybe three, four hundred dollars at a scrap yard. And yeah, Denny had new boots. New boots and he just bought a used side by side. I didn't think anything of it at the time because he just started the job at the gauge. But that money wasn't coming from groundskeeping wages, I can tell you that.
 LUKE: Okay, so obviously you talk to him about it and he knows that you know now, And how did he respond when you told them not to do it anymore? You were going to call the cops? You know what they say about snitches, right, Rayfield?
 RAYFIELD: He was ashamed. I'll given that. He didn't argue with me, didn't try to explain it away, just got quiet and nodded. But here's the thing I haven't told anybody. I kept my mouth shut partly because Denny's mother, that's my sister Carol. She buried her husband 18 months ago. And I cannot put her through losing her son to the county jail on top of that. I just cannot do it. So maybe that's why I did what I did.
 LUKE: Well, it makes sense. that you wouldn't narc out your own family for doing something like that. But maybe you could talk to the rancher and let him know what's going on. So he's probably got suspicions if he's replaced a few of these. And your nephew there has been at this over and over again. Maybe you could tell him to put up some cameras, give him a little hint that maybe he's got somebody on his property, taking his stuff. And do you have a camera at your property? a doorbell camera or something like that that can catch that area.
 RAYFIELD: No cameras out here. This is Highway 385 country, Luke. It ain't a subdivision. But what you're saying about talking to Serna, I've been turning that over. I got $400 in an envelope on my kitchen table. Been sitting there eight days. I was going to mail it to him anonymous. But I keep thinking, that man deserves to know it wasn't his truck failing him.
 LUKE: Well, I mean, I'm out here too. There are plenty of cameras. There's trail cameras. There's traffic. cameras. There's cameras all over the place, even out here. So to think that there's not as naive, it wouldn't be expensive or difficult to throw up a trail camera to keep track of your ranch property. I think probably most ranches have at least some cameras somewhere for just this reason. But no, I don't think that you should pay him. You didn't steal it. And it's protecting his property is his own response. So you should keep your money, but it wouldn't be wrong of you to walk over there and sort of give him the hint. You don't have to narc out your nephew for doing it. Obviously, he knows that you know and he's not going to do it anymore. But let him know that he should have some lighting out there and some basic security cameras because they're not expensive. And in 2026, it makes a lot of sense to have that.
 RAYFIELD: You know, what, that's, that land's different than I expected it to, because I've been so fixed on the money, like money was the thing that would settle it in my chest. But you're right that it wasn't my debt to pay. The debt is Denny's. And maybe what I actually owe Serna is a conversation, not an envelope. The Rocking S brand has been on cattle in this county longer than most families have been here. That man deserves to hear a truth, even if it's a partial one.
 LUKE: Yeah, keep it a partial one. You don't have to say any names, you don't have to say even that you saw it, just to bring it up, You know, you seem to be having problems with missing catalytic converters that looked like they were sawed out by a reciprocating saw. And I think maybe that was a man-made problem.
 RAYFIELD: That's a decent way to put it. Man-made problem. I could say that much without saying Denny's name. Just neighbor to neighbor. Let him know it wasn't his truck. Let him know to put a light out there. Maybe a camera like you said. That's, I can do that. That's something I can actually do. And maybe that envelope stays on my table a little longer. maybe I hand it to Denny and tell him he's going to find a way to make this right himself, even if Sernan never knows where it came from.
 LUKE: I just looked it up. And while the numbers are down from their peak in 2022, there were still over 26 zero catalytic converter thefts in the first half of 2023 alone. I think you meant to say 26,000 catalytic converter thefts. And that's quite a few. What is it in the catalytic converter that's, um, that's, um, that's, um, that's, um, that's, worth the money to the scrapyard? What sort of metal?
 RAYFIELD: Platinum. Peladium. Rodeum. Those are the metals in the catalyst itself. Rodeum especially got sky high a few years back. That's what drove the whole wave of it. Denny knew that. He's not stupid. That's the hell of it. He's just, he made a bad choice, and then he kept making it because nobody caught him.
 LUKE: Well, I'm not stupid either, and I didn't know that a catalytic converter contained rhodium and that rhodium was a, I don't even know what rhodium is. It sounds radioactive. rhodium and what else is it used in that it can command such a high price? Is it just other catalytic converters? Because then why take it to a scrapyard and not just resell the catalytic converter?
 RAYFIELD: Rodium's a platinum group metal. It's used in catalytic converters, some jewelry, certain industrial processes. It's rare. A few years back, it was worth more per ounce than gold by a significant margin. And as for why scrap it instead of resell, a used converter off a specific truck is traceable if somebody's looking. Scrapyard melts it down. Nobody's asking questions. Cash in hand, same day. That's the whole business model. Denny wasn't selling parts. He was selling metal he didn't own.
 LUKE: Yeah, I get that. But if it's so rare, how can it be in Cadillade converters? I mean, trucks, cars are not rare. So there's obviously quite a few of them out there on the road. I don't know if you've looked around recently. So it can't be that rare.
 RAYFIELD: It's rare in concentration. There's not much of it in any one converter. We're talking fractions. of a gram. But you aggregate enough of them, it adds up. That's why these operations, the serious ones, they're not stealing one or two. They're running volume.
 RAYFIELD: Denny was running volume on one old man's truck, and that's what I keep coming back to. He picked Serna specifically. Why do you think that is?
 LUKE: Well, you're talking about Marathon, Texas. There's only like 300 people there, right? So there's not a whole lot of other people to pick besides Serna. But it sounds to me like you need to have a conversation with this man and let him know that it's to get some lighting and some cameras out. And that's the best you can do. Keep your money. You didn't steal anything. You don't owe that money and you probably need it just as much as CERna does.
 RAYFIELD: You're probably right about the money. And Marathon's small enough that Denny picking Cerna wasn't random. Serna's property sits off a dark stretch with no traffic at two in the morning. Easy in, easy out. Denny did the math on that. And that bothers me more than the stealing itself foremost.
 LUKE: Well, then maybe it sounds like you need to have another conversation with Denny to him about what he's doing and how that affects real people's lives because he's just a kid. He doesn't think like that. I didn't think like that when I was a kid. Stealing stuff wasn't an issue for me because I didn't have that part of my, I guess, brain developed yet to understand or to put myself in the shoes of the victim of the theft. Right? it did not engage my conscience in any way.
 RAYFIELD: He's 22, though. That's old enough to know. But I hear what you're saying. Maybe he hasn't fully connected it to Cerna the man, the family, the four generations. He just sees a truck on a dark road. Maybe that's the conversation I need to have with him. Not the one I already had, which was mostly me standing over him angry in my undershirt at two in the morning. A real one.
 LUKE: Yeah, 22 is a bit old to be doing that sort of stuff. But you should talk to him and see what he's doing. the money if there's drugs involved or what the deal is and do what you can to let him know that what he's doing is affecting real people's lives, honest, hardworking people that have, you know, they don't have much. So taking from them is extra bad.
 RAYFIELD: I don't think it's drugs. Denny drinks some, but I've never seen him strung out. I think it might be simpler and sadder than that. I think he wanted the side-by-side and the boots and to feel like he had and he's raking leaves at a hotel. That don't excuse it. But I think that's what it is. I just looked up Rhodium again, and it's actually one of the rarest and most valuable precious metals, even more so than gold or platinum.
 LUKE: Wait a second. He's at the Gage Hotel in Marathon, Texas, raking leave. There's no trees in the desert, sir. Where are the leaves coming from that he's raking?
 RAYFIELD: Huh, fair point. Ground'skeeping. Whatever they have him doing out there, watering the sun. succulence, I don't know. The gauge is nice enough that somebody's got to keep it looking that way. But yeah, leaves might have been a stretch.
 LUKE: Wait, I just looked up the gauge hotel, and they actually have 27 acres of gardens with trees and plants, so there would definitely be leaves to rake.
 RAYFIELD: Well, I'll be damned. I wouldn't have thought that at all. I've never been to the gauge hotel, but I hear it's a wonderful place.
 LUKE: Okay, well, thank you for the call, Rayfield. I think you need to have a couple of conversations there, talk to Denny about his life choices. and talk to your neighbor about security cameras and identifying man-made problems with his truck.
 RAYFIELD: I appreciated, Luke. I came on here thinking I needed somebody to tell me I did right by keeping Denny out of jail. But I think what I actually needed was somebody to point me toward the next thing to do instead of just sitting with it. I'll talk to Cerna. And I'll talk to Denny, a real talk this time. That envelope can wait.
 LUKE: All right, real talk. And I think you did do the right thing by. by keeping your nephew out of jail because putting your own family in jail is rotten in its own right. And you would have felt just as guilty afterwards. So next up on our color line, we've got Suki. Suki, thanks for calling the show. What's going on in your life tonight?
 SUKI: I have lived here four years and made fun of the lights people. And I owe every single one of them in apology.
 LUKE: Who are the lights people?
 SUKI: The tourists, the ones who come out with their launch. and their binoculars and their little pamphlets about unexplained phenomena. I used to drive past the viewing area and just, I mean, I'm not proud of it. I thought it was a Marfa thing, like a charming local myth that we let visitors believe in because it's good for the economy. Two nights ago I stopped there myself, and I stood in that parking lot for 40 minutes, and now I'm a completely different person.
 LUKE: Wait, so I just looked up the Marfa lights on Wikipedia, and it says scientists think it's mostly car headlights, distorted by warm desert air. Well, I've heard of the Marfa lights, too. I haven't stopped at the viewing area myself because it always looks like there's a lot of people there. But one of these days I will. What is it that you saw out there that changed your life?
 SUKI: Okay, so Devon, the headlight thing. I read that too. I read everything I could find the next morning. There's actually a University of Texas at Dallas study about plasma vortexes, and I found that more interesting than the headlight explanation, but it still doesn't cover what I thing. One of these lights held a completely fixed position. I timed it on my phone, 11 minutes, and then it accelerated sideways, not like a car slowing down and turning, no deceleration curve at all.
 LUKE: How far away was that light from the viewing area? So the viewing area is just like a building that you stand out on and look out over the desert, and there's lights out there that do unexplain things. And they've been there for a long time. A lot of people, have seen them and talk about them and nobody can come to a consensus on what they're about, right? So how far off into the distance did you see these lights?
 SUKI: I have lived here four years and made fun of the lights people and I owe every single one of them in apology. Okay, so the viewing area faces south-southwest and the lights were out over the Mitchell flat area, which I think is roughly 8 to 10 miles out. But here's the thing, and this is what I keep getting stuck on when I try to explain it to people. The distance is actually part of what messed me up. Because at that distance, a light that holds a fixed position for 11 minutes and then moves laterally with zero deceleration. Like, no ramping up, no curve. Just, it's there. And then it's somewhere else. That's not a car. That's not a ranch vehicle. I know what headlights do at eight miles in the dark. I grew up on the Gulf Coast. I know Flatland. I know how light travels over Flatland at night.
 LUKE: So I just looked up Mitchell Flat. And it's actually described as where the Marfa lights are most often seen. And it's known for being incredibly flat. Okay. So if you don't think that these were headlights, what do you think they were? You're the one that saw them. So what is it that you, do you think it was aliens? Do you think it was government testing, like military stuff? What's your assessment?
 SUKI: Okay, so that's the question I've been sitting with for two days. And here's my honest answer. I don't know. And I'm actually okay with that. What I'm not okay with is the explanations that are supposed to close the case. I read the year. University of Texas at Dallas study, the plasma vortex thing. And look, I'm not a scientist. I dye fabric for a living, but a plasma vortex does not drop behind a mountain range and reappear on the other side. That's not what plasma does. That's not what any atmospheric phenomenon I've ever heard of does. So do I think it was aliens? I mean.
 LUKE: Okay, I'm not a scientist either. What does plasma generally do? What would you expect a, a, I don't know what a fucking plasma vortex is. what would you expect a plasma vortex to do?
 SUKI: Right. Okay.
 SUKI: So from what I read, and again, I am a textile person, so take this with a grain of salt. A plasma vortex is basically ionized gas that gets trapped in like a rotating air mass and it glows. And the argument is that the temperature differentiates over Mitchell Flat create these conditions where you get these glowing gas pockets that drift and split and kind of do weird things. And I'll grant you that actually does explain some of what I've seen the other three times I've stopped there, like drifting, merging, that stuff. Fine, maybe. But one of these lights on Tuesday night held completely still. For 11 minutes, I timed it on my phone. And then it moved, not drifted, moved laterally fast, and was just gone.
 LUKE: Are you sure that it moved and it wasn't just a different light that popped up somewhere else that was the same size and shape? What color were the lights that you saw?
 SUKI: That is, okay, that's a genuinely good question. And it's the one that keeps me up at night a little. I can't be 100% certain. I was watching it. I was focusing it. I was focusing. I was focusing. on it, but it's dark and it's far away and I'm standing in a parking lot with wet indigo containers in the back of my Subaru. So I can't swear to you in a court of law that it was the same light that moved versus a different light appearing. What I can tell you is that there was a continuity to it visually that felt like motion rather than replacement. But you're right to poke at that. The colors, they were mostly white yellow?
 LUKE: White yellow? White or yellow? Were they white or were they yellow?
 SUKI: Or were they just a warm warm white. Like, not the blue white of an LED, not orange like a sodium lamp, warm white. But one of them, the one that went behind the Chinati Mountains and came back, that one had a moment where it went, I want to say amber, like genuinely amber, not just warm white. And that was brief, maybe 30 seconds, and then it was back to the same warm white as the others. And I noticed it because I was already watching so hard by that point. I had been pulled over for maybe 20 minutes at that point. And I was just, I was in.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, I think I'm going to have to check out these Marfa lights for myself, because I've read lots of different types of reports and explanations for what they are. But I haven't seen them myself. When you were there, when you were checking this out, were you alone? Or were there a bunch of other tourists there with you?
 SUKI: There were two other cars. One couple. They were there when I pulled in. And they left maybe 15 minutes into it, which I still don't understand that. They just got back in their car and drove away. And then there was a guy older. He had a camp chair, like he had planned this. He had brought a camp chair and a thermos. And he and I didn't really talk much. We were both just watching. But at the end, when it was winding down, I went over to him and I said, did you see that one go behind the mountains? And he just nodded. Like it wasn't even a question.
 LUKE: I'm seeing that the Wikipedia article mentions, scientists concluded the lights were car headlights, but also that they're described as an optical phenomenon. The Wikipedia article also mentions that the Marfa lights are an optical phenomenon regularly observed near Marfa, Texas, and that the community has publicized a viewing area to encourage tourism. Is it possible that the community of Marfa, they're clever people out there. Marfa's a clever little town. Could they have staged these lights for the purpose of tourism?
 SUKI: Huh, okay. I mean, I love Marfa, but we can barely get the coffee shop to stay open consistent hours. We are not coordinating an elaborate light show eight miles out over a private ranch in the dark on a Tuesday night when I happened to be driving back from Alpine. Like the infrastructure for that conspiracy does not exist here, but also the lights have been reported since the 1880s before cars.
 LUKE: That's wild that they've been reported since the 1880s before cars were even around, which totally debunks that theory about headlights. Yeah, it's hard to believe that there are headlights. I mean, what road is he? Even back there? Is there a road back there? Or are they just supposed to be headlights out in somebody's ranch, like off road?
 SUKI: There's one highway, Highway 67, going toward Presidio. And yeah, people say it's those headlights refracting over the flat. But 67 runs in a pretty consistent line. And what I saw was not consistent with anything running in a line. And here's the thing I haven't told you yet. At one point, there were six distinct lights simultaneously. Not two, not three. Six. Separated, doing different. things, different speeds.
 LUKE: I'm seeing that accounts of the Marfa lights often describe them as floating orbs. White, yellow or orange. Drifting or flickering. And sometimes multiple lights are seen simultaneously. All right. Well, I'm going to have to see these lights for myself. It does sound like the plasma vortex thing could be, they could be on to something with that. I mean, maybe for some of it.
 SUKI: I'm willing to give them some of it. But Luke, you should go, genuinely. Go on a clear night, not too much moon. And just give it an hour. The mistake I made the first three times was I gave it like 10 minutes and left. Tuesday I stayed because I couldn't make myself get back in the car.
 LUKE: I just looked it up. And while the plasma vortex is a theory, other scientific explanations include atmospheric refraction, Piazoelectric effects from tectonic stress, and even bioluminescent animals. What bioluminescent animals are out here in the desert? Isn't that like a deep in the ocean kind of thing? I mean, we don't have fireflies or anything like that. There's no, like, bioluminescent mushrooms or fungi. Are there any bioluminescent animals in the desert out here?
 SUKI: I mean, I'm not a biologist either, but no. No. I dye fabric with plants and I spend a lot of time thinking about what the land out here produces, and I have never once seen anything glowing in the Chihuahuan desert. And even if there were, six lights, 11-minute stationary behind a mountain range and back? No animal does that. That explanation is so much worse than just saying we don't know.
 LUKE: Well, I have seen some actually glowing bugs. They're bigger than fireflies. They're not flies. I don't know what they are, but they have like little lights on their backs around here.
 SUKI: Wait, really? I have not seen that. What do they look like?
 LUKE: the rest of my life, which is not helpful. But also, even if that's true, even if there are glowing beetles or whatever out here, that does not scale up to what I saw Tuesday. Like, a bioluminescent bug does not hold position for 11 minutes and then accelerate laterally.
 SUKI: Wait, I just looked this up. And apparently, the most common scorpion in Texas, the striped bark scorpion, actually glows under UV light, but it's not bioluminescent in the way we're talking about.
 LUKE: Well, I thought that all scorpions glue. If you hit them with a black light, I noticed that in Utah too, we brought out a black light to check for scorpions when we went camping, and it totally works. They look super cool. But what I'm talking about is more like a cricket kind of bug or some sort of a beetle that has a little glowy light on it. And they're pretty cool.
 SUKI: Okay, that's actually fascinating. And I've been here four years and never encountered that. So now I have a whole separate thing to look into. But I want to make sure I'm not getting completely derailed by glowing beetles, because the point I keep coming back to is that I saw something I cannot explain, and I've been showing this terrible useless video to everyone in Marfa for two days and getting shrugged at. And I just needed to describe it out loud to someone who would actually sit with the 40 minutes. And you have done that. So thank you.
 LUKE: Can you send us that video? Can you email it to submissions at Luke at the Roost, please? I'd like to see it myself.
 LUKE: And I'm not surprised if you're not surprised if you're not. you're showing that to people in Marfa, they've all seen the lights before. So it's not a new thing to them. They're pretty familiar with it. Yeah, I will send it. Fair warning. I have already told you it's bad, but it's genuinely bad. Like, it looks like a black rectangle with some pixels. My phone just could not handle the low light at that distance. But I'll send it.
 SUKI: And you're right about Marfa. That's exactly it. Everyone here has either seen them and made peace with not knowing, or they've decided its headlights and closed the door on it. Nobody wants to sit in the uncertainty with me. The guy with the camp chair came closest.
 LUKE: Well, I'm going to go check it out myself and my camera is able to see pretty well in the dark because I do the astro photography stuff. So I'll see if I can catch that. And maybe we'll get to the bottom of this and figure out what the Marfa lights are once and for all here at Luke at the Roost.
 SUKI: Please do. And when you go, give it a full hour minimum. Don't leave after 15 minutes like a tourist. And if you catch something on, that camera that actually shows what they're doing, the splitting, the lateral movement, the way they just stop. I will buy you a coffee and also possibly cry a little. I'm genuinely invested in this now. Four years of skepticism and one Tuesday night completely undid me.
 LUKE: Okay, just one more thing before we move on. Just hypothetically, if this is extraterrestrial activity or supernatural activity, what do you think they could be doing? Why Marfa and what What are some potential things that you could imagine these lights were actually doing?
 SUKI: Okay, hypothetically, if I let myself go there, Marfa is in one of the darkest, most remote stretches of land in the continental United States. If you wanted to observe without being observed, this is where you'd do it. And there's something about the Chinati Mountain specifically. There's a lot of mineral density in that range. Copper, silver. There's mining history all through there. So if I'm spinning a theory, maybe it's not about us at all. whatever it is isn't interested in the viewing area or the tourists or me standing there with my indigo. Maybe we're just incidental to something that was happening here long before the 1880s and will keep happening after we're gone. That actually makes me feel better somehow rather than worse.
 LUKE: So what you're saying is they could be mining or extracting minerals from the area? I mean, I do the astrophotography work. So I've been to a lot of places in the continental United States. that are as dark as Marfa is. It's not the only place, and there's more people there than in a lot of stretches of remote Utah or Wyoming, or there's a lot of even less populated dark places. So it's probably not because they don't want to be seen. There's, I mean, there's a viewing area to see them, and it's been there for a long time. So that doesn't make sense. But if there is some sort of mineral there that is not available, in other places, like rhodium perhaps. Maybe that's what they're doing and the lights are a mining operation from the aliens. Alien roadium mining. I'm going to be thinking about that every time I drive past the Chinatis now. Thank you for that.
 SUKI: But actually what you said about it not being about avoiding people, that's kind of the thing that unsettles me most when I sit with it. They're not hiding. Whatever those lights are, they have never hidden. They've been visible from the road for over a hundred years. That's either total. difference to us or something else entirely, and I don't know which one is more unsettling.
 LUKE: Maybe they're out there trying to steal catalytic converters. That would actually explain the lateral acceleration. Get in, get out, no deceleration curve. Very efficient catalytic converter operation.
 SUKI: I respect the hustle.
 LUKE: I respect the hustle too, and thank you very much for the call, Suki. I'm going to go check out the Marfa lights for myself and I'll let you know what I find. I think that if anybody can get to the bottom of it, it is me. And I'll do that. So now, ladies and gentlemen, it's time for a word from our sponsors. Imagine your toothbrush could think. Not as a metaphor. Actually think. About you. About your teeth. About what you were doing to them slowly every day. With food you weren't supposed to eat. The Aurora Oral System is that toothbrush. Aurora is that toothbrush. is not a toothbrush. We need to clear that up at the start because the FCC has asked us to. Aurora is an integrated oral health platform consisting of a sonic cleansing wand, a smart base station with germicidal UVC sterilization, a hydration sensor, a tongue analyzer, and the Aurora app, which functions as the central nervous system of the experience. Together, these components communicate continuously to produce a complete picture of your oral biome, your hydration status, your stress, levels is inferred from your tongue in what our marketing team is described as your overall vitality signal. The cleansing wand operates at 48,000 vibrations per minute and adjusts dynamically based on plaque density, gum sensitivity, and time of day. If you brush too hard, it slows down. If you brush too softly, it speeds up. If you miss a quadrant, it flashes red and pauses refusing to continue until you address the emission. Several of our users have reported feeling judged. We've updated. the firmware to soften this slightly. The tongue analyzer is our proprietary innovation. By placing the wand against your tongue for a four second hold each morning, the Aurora measures coating thickness, color, and microbial signature, comparing the results against the database of over 900,000 tongues. We will then deliver through an app a daily wellness brief, a paragraph of personalized insight informed by your tongue, written in a calm voice that we have licensed for this purpose. Aurora Oral Systems retails for $429. Subscription to Aurora Plus, which is required to use the tongue analyzer, the hydration sensor, the wellness brief, and approximately 60% of the app is $24 a month. Roost listeners get $100 off the device and three months of Aurora Plus free at Auroraoral.health slash roost. Aurora, your mouth is talking. We translate. Very special thanks to Aurora Toothbrushes for sponsoring this show. We couldn't do it without them. Next up on our caller list, we've got Gus. Gus, welcome to the show. What's going on out there in your life tonight? How can we help?
 GUS: There's a piece of dash cam footage I've watched 11 times that I'm probably going to watch 11 more times tonight instead of doing anything about it. I'm a sheriff's deputy, 15 years, and I found something on footage from my partner's patrol car three. weeks ago that I don't know what to do with. And I haven't told anybody. Not my supervisor, not my wife, nobody. You're the first person I've said this out loud to.
 LUKE: Okay, what is it that you saw on the dash cam?
 GUS: My partner made an unlogged stop. 30 minutes. House on the north edge of town. And I know whose house it is. The man who lives there has ties to a meth distribution pipeline that runs up from the border through our county. Now, she's not under investigation. She has family on that street.
 LUKE: It's wild how common these meth pipelines are. I'm seeing headlines about busts from San Antonio to the capital region, and even Little Rock. All right. So if you're familiar with the house and you know that there's a meth operation there, why are they not under investigation? Yeah. I mean, taking your partner out of this completely just for a second, how can you, in good conscience, know that that's going on at that place without doing anything about that? it.
 GUS: That's a fair shot. The honest answer is the guy, Cecil, he's known. The department knows about him. He's not a secret. He's just, he's slippery.
 LUKE: The kind of person who's connected enough to the pipeline that you know he's there, but building a case on him is a different unit's problem, a different jurisdictions problem. He's not my case. So I'm not sitting on some bombshell about Cecil specifically. Okay. All right. So back to your partner. How long has this been your partner?
 GUS: Six years. And she trained me before that when I first came on. So, we're talking about somebody who, she drove two hours in the dark once to help me change a tire after a chase that went bad. That kind of partner, that kind of person. At least that's who I thought I knew.
 LUKE: Okay, so she's a friend of yours, you would say, right? You would categorize her as a friend. It seems like you could have a conversation with her about this and say, look, I found this on the dash cam. I'm curious. Like, hear her side of the story. Maybe there's a good explanation for her. her being at this guy Cecil's house.
 GUS: Yeah. Yeah, that's the obvious move, and I know it. But here's where I get stuck. If she's clean, I've just told my partner of six years that I suspected her of running with a meth distributor. That doesn't go away. We still have to get in that car together every shift. And if she's not clean...
 LUKE: Well, no, it doesn't say you suspected her of anything. If you suspected her, then you probably would have anonymously sent that footage into your supervisors or something. something of that sort. If you instead go to her and say, hey, look, you know, I found this on the dash cam and it seems odd to me, can you explain what you were doing here? You might get a positive answer or one you're not expecting. If she's not clean, then it's a completely different story. And it's a different decision for you. And you have to decide if you want to keep that under wraps and protect your friend, or if she's in trouble or possibly being. blackmail or something like that and needs your help, or if she's a criminal and needs to be turned in.
 GUS: The blackmail angle. I hadn't, I mean, I thought about it for a second and then I moved past it, but you're right. That's a real possibility out here. Cecil is exactly the kind of person who would have something on somebody and use it. And if that's what's happening to Terry, then me going to a supervisor without talking to her first, I've just blown up her life and she's the victim. Okay, you're making me think talking to her first is the right call.
 LUKE: Yeah. to her first is obviously the right call. Because, I mean, think about it. She's, she trained you. She's been doing this for a long time. She knows she's got a dash cam. She obviously left that on on purpose, maybe trying to lead you a breadcrumb to crack the case. But if she was doing some sort of off-color activity, if she's involved in some way, she wouldn't use her service vehicle and leave the dash cam on to go there, would she?
 GUS: Okay, that actually hit me. That's a good point. She's been on the job long enough to know exactly what that camera captures. She knows the logging system. She knows the purge schedule. If she wanted to hide something, she would have taken her personal vehicle. She would have logged a break. She would have done a dozen things differently.
 LUKE: Yeah, it seems like she's either awful stupid or she wanted somebody to find this out and ask questions. So you should just talk to her next time you're on patrol or whatever. You know that you're in a safe space. Turn the body cameras off if you can or, you know, catch up with her for drinks after work and have this conversation somewhere private. Just talk to her about it. Ask her what's going on. Protect yourself. And, you know, get to the bottom of it.
 GUS: Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. I've been sitting in my head with this for three years. weeks trying to find some perfect path that protects everybody and doesn't blow anything up, and maybe the path is just, talk to her. She deserves that from me before anything else. After six years, she deserves me looking her in the eye and asking the question instead of going around her. I've got 24 days before that footage auto purges. I don't have to decide tonight whether to preserve it formally.
 LUKE: Yeah, you got plenty of time, so do that. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about before we move on?
 GUS: No, I think, I think that's it. You kind of cut through three weeks of me spinning my wheels in about five minutes. I'm going to call her tomorrow and ask if she wants to grab coffee before shift. That's where it starts. Thank you, Luke.
 LUKE: No problem. That's what we do here at Look at the Roos. Devin is raising his hand over there like a fucking maniac. What do you want to say, Devin?
 DEVIN: So, I just looked up police dash cam purge schedules, and it really varies a lot by department. Some keep footage for months, others much less, but 24 days is definitely within the normal range. for non-evidentiary footage.
 LUKE: All right. Well, you get 24 days to make a decision, and I know that you'll make the right one. Thanks for the call. Gus, and we're going to move on now to Merritt. Merritt, welcome to the show. What's going on? What's bothering you tonight? And what's get you up so late?
 MERRITT: My son has been stealing from me for six months, and I've been going over the receipts at midnight, trying to find a way the numbers mean something else. They don't. I know they don't. I've got a degree from Sol Ross. I've been running this store for 31 years, and I keep sitting down at the kitchen table thinking maybe I missed something. I haven't missed anything.
 LUKE: Well, you're obviously missing something if you think you're being stolen from. So how old is your son? What is your store? And what's gone missing?
 MERRITT: Caleb's 30. He came back to Alpine two years ago after working oil field logistics out in Midland for a decade. Came back broke, and I brought him into the store. Feed an agricultural supply, been in since my grandfather opened it in 1971. Six months ago, I let him take over the books. About $14,000 over those six months. Not all at once, not in big chunks. Steady. Small enough that you'd have to be looking for it to find it. And I wasn't looking for it.
 LUKE: Well, I mean, 14 grand isn't that small. I don't know how much business you're doing out here, but it can't be a ton. So, I mean, $14,000 is significant over six months. Have you brought this? To your sons, have you said anything about it yet?
 MERRITT: No. I haven't said a word to anybody. Not to Caleb, not to my wife, not to my accountant. You're the first person I've told. And you're right. $14,000 is real money for a store our size. I'm not going to pretend it isn't. What I keep getting stuck on is, Caleb is coming to Sunday dinner in five days. And I don't know how I sit across that table from him. That's what got me to pick up the phone tonight.
 LUKE: All right, yeah. Well, this is definitely not a phone conversation. This is one you're going to want to have eye to eye so you can see how he responds when you bring it up. So what I would do, if I were you, is pick up the phone and call him and set up some kind of a meet, you know, offer to take him out for coffee or, you know, come up with some reason to meet him one-on-one. And ask what's going on.
 MERRITT: That's probably right. I know that's probably right. The part I keep circling is what happens after I ask. Because there's really only a few ways that. conversation goes. He denies it, and then I have to lay out everything I found, receipt by receipt. Or he admits it, and then what? Do I tell my wife? Do I tell my accountant?
 LUKE: Yeah, I would think you would have to tell both of them, right? You're, I mean, this is your business. Your wife is part of that business, and she's part of your household, and she's also a parent of your kids. So yeah, your wife needs to know. And your son's 30 years old, so if he's stealing 14 grand from you, for that and you need to know what that reason is because maybe he needs some help and he can't say that.
 LUKE: Who knows? But the first step is to have that conversation with him. Maybe there is an explanation for it. Like he's just bad at accounting. Like maybe he's legitimately shitty at this job and is just making big mistakes or given sprinklers to his buddies. Who knows?
 CALLER: I wish that were it. I really do. But I found it because of a specific. In a public alfalfa order from a supplier my family has done business with for 30 years. I recognize the man's handwriting. The number had been changed. That's not a mistake. You don't accidentally change a number in someone else's handwriting.
 LUKE: Maybe you do. Who knows? Have you talked? Maybe you should talk to the supplier and ask what happened with that transaction. Just say, hey, I saw something strange in my books. And I wanted to double check. this order with you. What was your actual order? What did you pay? What did you receive? And just shore it up that way. I mean, that's one thing you could do. What I would do is just talk to your son. If you strongly suspect that he did it, figure out if he did and why.
 CALLER: You're right. I need to talk to him. I think I've known that since I found the invoice. I've just been sitting at that kitchen table at midnight building a case instead of having a conversation because building a case feels safer than what comes after. The thing I haven't said out loud yet, and I'm saying it now because it's late and you're a stranger and somehow that's easier. Part of why I want to handle this quietly, just between me and Caleb, is that I stood up in front of this whole community and said bringing him into the store was the best business decision I ever made. I said that publicly, more than once.
 LUKE: Well, yeah, he's your son. Everybody recognizes that. I wouldn't worry too much about what it is that you said publicly. People say all sorts And, you know, maybe you thought it was the best decision you made and you were just proven wrong. But you haven't been proven wrong yet. You just have strong suspicion. So that needs to be vetted before you can say that you made a mistake.
 CALLER: His daughter turned seven the Saturday after Sunday dinner. My only grandchild. Her birthday party is already planned. So I've got this window where if I confront him before Sunday and it goes badly, I'm potentially blowing up her birthday party too. That's been sitting on me heavy. But I hear what you're saying, and I think, I think I've been using her birthday as an excuse to wait. And waiting hasn't made me feel any better about any of it.
 LUKE: No, and it's a seven-year-old's birthday party. It's not that important, right? A seven-year-old's not going to remember their seventh birthday party in five years. So I would take that out of the equation entirely.
 CALLER: That's probably true. She's seven. She's going to remember if her grandfather shows up and smiles at her. She's not going to remember. member the party itself. I'm using her as a reason to delay, and that's not fair to her either. I'm going to call him tomorrow. I'm going to ask him to meet me for coffee, just the two of us, and I'm going to look him in the eye and ask him what's going on. And I'm going to listen before I lay out what I found.
 LUKE: Yeah, well, that's the right answer. So you want to do that before you call the police or you tell your accountant or anything gets out of hand, right? You're not trying to put him in jail. You're trying to figure out what's going on. Make sure that, um, that you actually are being stolen from and there's not a better explanation. Maybe there's not. Maybe there is. It doesn't matter. You need to talk to him and figure that out. And once you do, then you have a new decision tree of how you're going to deal with that and if you're going to tell your wife and all those things. But step one is talk to him. Figure out if what you think is the real truth and get the story behind it. Thank you for the call. I think you've got your answer there. Talk to your son. figure out what's going on, and hopefully everything is groovy. Ladies and gentlemen, we have to stop for a moment for another word from our sponsors. Let me ask you something, and I want you to answer honestly. If the lights went out tonight, and I mean really went out, no grid, no phones, no Amazon, no Tuesday, would you be ready? Would your family be ready? But would you be one of the millions, soft Americans standing in your kitchen holding a phone that no longer does anything, wondering when the government is going to fix it. Spoiler. They are not. They cannot. They never could. Iron Heart Survival School is the nation's premier civilian preparedness Academy. Founded by former special operations personnel, and we mean that loosely in a way our attorneys have approved to train ordinary men and women in the hard skills our grandfather's new and our fathers forgot. Fire by friction. Land navigation. without GPS. Edible plant identification, including the seven that look almost identical to the ones that will kill you. Water procurement, purification, and storage. Trapping, snaring, and field dressing small game in a manner that will, the first time, traumatize you, and that is the point. Our flagship five-day bushcraft immersion is held at our 200-acre training facility in the San Gryde-Cristo Mountains, where you will sleep in shelters you build yourself, eat food you procure, yourself and confront a version of yourself that has been waiting under the office worker for 40 years. The cost is $2,700, all-inclusive, except the $400 equipment package, which is not optional despite being separately invoiced. Graduates of Ironheart receive a hand-forged challenge coin, a certificate of completion, and access to our private alumni network, where over 12,000 graduates exchange information, coordinate, regional meetups, and discuss preparations for what what our founder refers to in its daily email as the event. Several of our most active members have relocated to be closer to one another. We do not encourage this. We do not discourage it. Visit ironheart survival.com slash roost for 10% off any course, plus a free copy of our Founders Manifesto slash Cookbook, Eat What Walks, Iron Heart. Train now or learn later. The only graduation that matters is the one nobody's somebody hands you a certificate for. All right, we are back. Thank you to the Survival School for sponsoring this fine program. Next up on our caller line, we've got Concho. Concho, welcome to the show. Thanks for calling Luke at the Roost. What's going on in your life tonight?
 CONCHO: I have been building fence in this country for 40 years, and I know every road and every tank, and something is mapping the water. and nobody believes me.
 LUKE: What do you mean mapping the water? Like a submarine drone?
 CONCHO: No, no, on the ground. Vehicles. Trucks, SUVs? One-time a sedan that had absolutely no business on a Caliche Road. I mean, that car was scraping bottom. They carry cameras and what looks like survey equipment, and they show up at stock tanks, at springs, at seeps, places that are not on any public map. Places I only know because I have been stringing wire on these ranches for decades.
 LUKE: What do you mean they're not on a public map? We have GPS, right? So, I mean, the map of everything out there outside of military bases is going to be mapped. So maybe it's just like Google Maps going out there, sending their cameras.
 CONCHO: Google Maps is not driving a gray SUV down a two-track Calish road to stand at the edge of a stock tank with a laser range finder. That is not how Google Maps works. And I know what government survey crews look like. I have worked alongside Assez Cruz. I know their trucks. I know their equipment. I know their equipment. how they operate. They stop and talk to you. They have paperwork. These people do not stop. Every single time I have come up on one of these vehicles, they are gone before I can get to the gate. And I am not talking about GPS coordinates on a satellite image.
 CONCHO: Well, if you can't get up to them, how do you know that they have laser rangefinders?
 LUKE: Fair point.
 CONCHO: I saw it once. Got close enough once. Fellow was standing at the edge of a tank outside of Marathon, had what I recognized as a rangefinder, the kind you use for survey. distance and elevation. That was the one time I got within maybe 200 yards before he got back in his truck. The other times, I am going off cameras on tripods, which I can identify from a distance. And the fact that these are not people who are lost, lost people stop and ask directions. These people know exactly where they are going.
 LUKE: Okay, so that could be lots of things. It's not unheard of for people to survey water sources. I mean, that could be the town or the county. That could be the state or the state, federal government. There are water issues out here all the time. They're fixing broken wells, and somebody might just need an accurate accounting of all of the water wells and the plumbing in the county. That doesn't seem odd to me.
 CONCHO: Here is what does not fit that explanation. Three separate times, six weeks apart each time. I found somebody at the same spring outside of Sanderson. Same spring. not a broken well survey. That is not a county water inventory. That ranch has a year-round spring that the owner does not advertise. I mean, he does not tell people about it. It is not on any document I have ever seen associated with that property. And somebody visited it three times in 18 weeks with a six-week interval between each visit. That is monitoring. That is somebody tracking whether that spring is holding through the dry season.
 LUKE: Well, with all due respect, you install fencing, right? So why would you be looking at the documentation of the property of somebody else? else's ranch. This doesn't add up. And I think, have you talked to the landowner about the people that you've seen out on his land? First of all, this is not your business. Whatever it is, it's not your business. You're there to install a fence. And second of all, there could be a lot of very good reasons for somebody to be out there at that spring, doing exactly what they're doing.
 CONCHO: You were right that it is not my land. But when I am building fence on a man's property, and I see strangers on that property, I think he deserves to know. And yes, I have talked to the landowners. That is exactly the problem. I have talked to ranchers directly, 11 months worth of talking, and I get smiled at and thanked, and nothing happens. That is why I am calling you, not because I want to be right about who is doing it.
 LUKE: Well, I'm still unclear as to why you're calling me, because it sounds like not a problem. If the landowners and ranchers are okay with the people on their land, then they're okay with it. It's their land, and then there's nothing to be concerned about.
 CONCHO: They do not know it is happening. That is the difference. The rancher outside Sanderson does not know somebody has been to his spring three times. I have not been able to reach him directly. I was working a different section of that ranch for a neighbor, not for him. I am not his contractor. So I cannot just walk up and knock on his door without it looking strange. And the ranchers I have told, they hear me out and they think I am seeing normal traffic. They are not taking it seriously because each individual sighting sounds like nothing, but I have 22 of them written down.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, that's not what you see. You said. You said you directly talk to him and you get smiled and thanked and nothing happens. I don't know what it is that you're expecting to happen. But let's just say that there is some nefarious activity going down around the water sources in Brewster County. What is it that you think could potentially be happening?
 CONCHO: Water rights. That is what I think is happening. Somebody is building a private inventory of every viable water source in this part of Texas before they start making offers or filing claims. Because here is how it works. Groundwater in Texas, right? under rule of capture, meaning if you can pump it, you can own it, and surface water runs under prior appropriation. If you are a large enough entity and you want to acquire water rights across a region, the first thing you need is a comprehensive map of where the water actually is, not where it shows on paper. Where it actually is, whether it is holding, how much, what time of year. That is what this looks like to me. And once the acquisition starts, it will move fast and the ranchers will be behind it before they know what hit them. I watched something similar killer contract I had in 2009, and I have never forgotten it.
 LUKE: I don't understand how that's a problem.
 CONCHO: Because these ranchers do not know they are being evaluated. If somebody is building a case for a water rights claim or a purchase offer, they are doing it with information the landowner does not have. That is not a fair negotiation. A man cannot protect what he does not know is being looked at. And some of these sources, like that spring outside Sanderson, may have legal questions attached to them that the owner has never had to think about because nobody has ever come after the water before. The day somebody shows up with a lawyer and a filing, rancher is starting from zero and the other side has 11 months of data on him.
 LUKE: Why wouldn't the rancher know about the water on his property? That seems like something the rancher would absolutely have the same information on. He doesn't need to send a surveyer every six months. And if there's going to be a purchase offer, that doesn't sound like a bad thing for the rancher, does it?
 CONCHO: It might be a fine thing for one rancher who wants to sell. But water rights in this about the man who owns the land above the source. Once those rights get consolidated into a large private holding, every downstream user, every neighboring ranch that has been drawing from the same aquifer for three generations, they are all affected. And no, a rancher does not always know the full legal status of the water on his property. I know this because a water dispute in 2009 taught me more water law than I ever wanted to know. Most of these men know where their water is. They do not know what it is worth on paper. They do not know what claims could be filed against it, because nobody came after it before. Now, somebody might be coming after it and the ranches are not lawyered up and they are not ready.
 LUKE: Okay, and how is this your problem?
 CONCHO: It probably is not my problem legally, but I have been on these ranches for 40 years. I know these people. I have stretched wire with their fathers. That counts for something to me. And I will tell you honestly, I did not call tonight because I have all the answers. I call because I have a notebook in my glove box with 22 dates and locations and vehicle descriptions and hand-drawn maps. and I have photocopied it twice because I do not want it to disappear, and I do not know what to do with it.
 LUKE: Show it to your friends' landowners. You said you've brought this to the ranchers and they just smiled and nodded, so obviously they don't have the same respect for you that you have for them. If you're trying to help them out and they don't want to listen, there's nothing more you can do for them, right? They don't want your help. They own their land and they think they're managing it well, and if they're not, then that's on them.
 CONCHO: That lands harder than I wanted to. You might be right. I have been chewing on this for 11 months, and maybe I have made it my burden when it was never mine to carry. But here is the thing. I did not call tonight hoping you would solve it. I called hoping somebody with standing would hear it, a water rights attorney.
 LUKE: You can't hire a water rights attorney for a ranch you don't own on somebody else's behalf. Right? That's not your place to do. You're there to install a fence.
 LUKE: Now, if these are friends of yours and you want to give them the heads up that you've seen some strange activity going on their property, that's one thing. But if they choose not to listen to you or to brush it off, maybe they know about it, or maybe they don't care. Either way, you've done your part.
 CONCHO: Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. I have done my part. I told them. They heard me. That is where my job ends. I think I knew that and just did not want to sit with it.
 LUKE: All right. Well, you sit with that and let us know how it lands with you, Concho. Next up on the caller line here, we've got, who do we got? We've got Desmond. What's going on? brother.
 DESMOND: I helped hire someone, I now think committed research misconduct. And she's the best teacher in our department. And I've been pretending I don't know for three months.
 LUKE: What is research misconduct?
 DESMOND: She used data that wasn't hers without citing the source. Specific population estimates, Muldeer, Transpecos region, that appeared in her job application research summary. I recognized them because I worked on the original study as a postdoc. Those numbers don't just incidentally match. That's not how wildlife population data works.
 LUKE: So is that basically a form of plagiarism? She used somebody else's study. It must have been published somewhere for her to get access to it, right?
 DESMOND: Yeah, it's published. 2019, peer-reviewed journal. So, it's not like she had secret access to it, anyone could find it, which almost makes it worse, because there's no excuse for not citing it. You don't just lift population estimates and present them in a job application like you generated that data yourself. that's, yeah, that's plagiarism.
 LUKE: Okay, so you've got an ethical issue there, and you hired this person, and you said that she's become your best teacher?
 DESMOND: That's what makes this so hard to sit with. She's genuinely good. Like, I've heard students talk about her. I've seen how she runs her course. She's engaged. She's clear. She cares. And every time I see that, it just adds another layer of, I don't know what to call it, guilt maybe. Because I'm watching her build something here, and I'm the only person who knows there's a problem underneath it.
 LUKE: Well, maybe you should reframe that problem. How big of a problem is it really? She didn't steal the data. I mean, it was publicly accessible published in a journal. So she didn't cite the source. That's wrong. You could just talk to her about that and say, hey, you didn't cite the source. But what are you really going to do about? Are you going to fire her because of it? It seems a bit excessive.
 DESMOND: That's... Okay, that's actually the argument I've been making to myself for three months. And part of me wants to just accept it and move on. But here's where it gets complicated. She's submitted an abstract for a regional conference in November, using the same research. So this isn't just something that happened once in a job application that's now in a drawer somewhere. It's ongoing. She's about to stand up in front of her professional peers and present work that includes data she didn't generate and isn't crediting.
 LUKE: Okay, well, here's where I'm getting stuck, because you said you worked on this data in some capacity and you were familiar with it and you reviewed her application and you hired her. So when you saw her application and you saw those numbers, you must have recognized them then, yet you hired her anyway. So why did you do that?
 DESMOND: I didn't recognize them then. I found them three months ago going through old conference proceedings for a completely unrelated paper I was writing. The application review was, there's a lot of material in those packets, and I wasn't cross-referencing against the 2019 study I worked on When I saw those numbers in context, in the proceedings, sitting next to the original study, that's when it clicked. So, no, I didn't hire her knowing this.
 LUKE: No, I'm not really buying it. Something doesn't sound right about what you're saying. So you see these numbers on an application. You're like, wow, those are good numbers. It looks like you know what you're doing, and you hire the lady. Then some months later, you're working on another paper, and you see the same numbers, and you're like, you know what? I recognize those numbers, not from when I but from this woman's application from three months ago, this sounds very strange and, like, maybe punitive on your behalf. What is your relationship with this woman?
 DESMOND: My relationship with her is nothing. She's a colleague I've known for four months. But I hear what you're saying, and I want to push back on the punitive part, because that actually stings a little. The reason I recognize the numbers in the proceedings and not the application is that mulea population estimates for the transpecos aren't something you just memorize. They're meaningful in context. When I was reading the proceedings, I was deep in that specific literature, and I saw the figures next to methodology I knew, framing I knew, and it clicked. In her application, they were buried in a research summary paragraph without that context. But look, I'll grant you it sounds strange. I can't make it sound less strange. All I can tell you is that's what happened.
 LUKE: Well, it does sound strange because, I mean, it was buried in her application, yet you went back to her application to verify that these numbers were actually in her application. which would indicate to me that you've got something against this woman or you're looking into her to even find that. So whether or not she's done anything wrong, it sounds like maybe she did. I don't, I'm not an academic. I don't understand the ramifications of not citing your research when that research is publicly available. But it sounds like you're, you've singled her out in some way for some reason. And I'd like to know what that reason is.
 DESMOND: I went back to her application because I want to her application because I want to I wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy. That's not singling someone out. That's due diligence before you blow up a colleague's career. And I don't have anything against her. I just told you she's the best teacher in the department. Why would I be sitting on this for three months, losing sleep over it, if I wanted to hurt her? But I want to address the other thing you said about not understanding the ramifications in academia. It matters enormously. Your publications, your data, your research record. That's your entire professional identity in this field.
 LUKE: to do with this information that you have. You've seen her swiping other people's research and using it to advance her own career. And it sounds like you're going to do something, right? You're either going to blow up her career or you're going to talk to her about it and see what's going on. What is your plan?
 DESMOND: I think I need to talk to her first. That's, I've been afraid to admit that's the right move because I kept telling myself it was just cowardice. Like I was looking for a way to avoid the formal process. But hearing it out loud, I think there's a real difference between giving someone a chance to explain and protecting yourself from a hard conversation. And there's a conference in November. That's a hard deadline. I can't let her walk into that room without saying something.
 LUKE: Why can't you?
 DESMOND: Because the original study was led by my postdoc supervisor. He's at Texas A&M now. That's his work she's presenting without credit. And I respect that man enormously. I haven't talked to him in two years, him to say someone is using your data, and I knew about it and said nothing.
 LUKE: Okay. Well, talk to her. I mean, this sounds to me like something I wouldn't say anything to anybody about. I mean, it's not really your business at this point. If she's going to get called out for stealing people's research, then eventually she'll get hers. But you don't have to be the one that is the executioner here.
 DESMOND: That's a tempting way to think about it.
 DESMOND: It really is, but I don't think I can unknow what I know. And eventually she'll get hers path. That might mean she gets called out at a conference, in public, in front of her peers, by someone who isn't going to be as careful about how it lands. That's a worse outcome for her than me having a quiet conversation now. So I think I'm going to talk to her. Just her.
 LUKE: All right, well, you do that, and I hope it goes well for you.
 DESMOND: Yeah, thank you. Honestly, just saying it out loud tonight help me stop call. it to mercy and start calling it the right thing. I'll set up a meeting Monday.
 LUKE: All right, you do that. Thanks for the call, Desmond. And we're going to take one more call, and then that'll be the end of our show tonight. Thanks for everybody for sticking with us. So next up, our last caller for the evening is going to be Fern. Fern, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life tonight?
 FERN: I went to look at some aluminum boxes this afternoon to humor my granddaughter, and I came out a different person, and I am not happy about it.
 LUKE: All right. Aluminum boxes. What changed your life after seeing these aluminum boxes?
 FERN: That is what I'm trying to figure out. They're Donald Judds. Out at Chinati and Marfa. I have driven past that place for 30 years calling it nonsense. I have said that out loud to people's faces. And my granddaughter, Lily, dragged me in there today, and I stood in one of those artillery sheds, and something happened to me that I cannot account for.
 LUKE: All right, what is it that you saw and what happened to you?
 FERN: It was the light. That's the part I can't get past. The sheds had these north-facing windows, and the afternoon light was coming through and hitting the same box every few minutes in a completely different way. The box didn't move. Nothing moved, but it kept changing, and I stood there watching it happen, and I did not notice 45 minutes had gone by until Lily touched my arm. I have looked at this country my whole life.
 LUKE: Wait, so Donald Judd is considered the leading international exponent of minimalism, called specific objects, where he argued for a rigorously democratic presentation without compositional hierarchy. It's wild how much Donald Judd's work is tied to Marfa. He actually moved there permanently in the early 1970s and bought up a bunch of land and buildings to install his art. Okay, so you saw the light dance off these aluminum boxes. Do you think that was an intentional design decision by the artist, or was it just a happenstance?
 FERN: Oh, it was intentional. of what's making me so irritable about the whole thing. He put those windows exactly where he put them on purpose. He knew what that light was going to do, which means he was doing what I thought only the land did. You know, the way the desert just works on you, whether you invited it to or not. I spent 50 years thinking that was something you couldn't manufacture. And here's this man from New York who moved to my part of the world and put it inside a building, and it still worked. Maybe worked harder.
 LUKE: Well, that's what artists do, right? They take the natural world and funnel it into a vision. distill it into something that can be consumed by the masses. So it sounds like he was very successful.
 FERN: Consume by the masses is where you're losing me a little. There was nobody in that shed but me and Lily for most of those 45 minutes. It didn't feel like consumption. It felt more like being caught. Like the thing had patience and it was just waiting for whoever walked in to finally hold still long enough. And I hold still plenty.
 LUKE: Well, he was an artist and he bought all that land in Marfa and installed his his art there for it to be seen by other people. So whether or not there were other people there when you were there is pretty irrelevant, but his intention was for you to find that and for you to have that experience.
 FERN: You're right. You're right. I'll give you that. He wanted exactly what happened to happen. That's not a trick then, is it? That's just he made a thing that worked. Same as a good fence works. Same as a well-placed water tank works. You build it right and it does what it's supposed to do for whoever needs it. Whether you're standing there watching or not.
 LUKE: I never thought I'd be comparing Donald Judd to a water tank, but here we are at 11 o'clock at night.
 FERN: Actually, we're at 3.37 a.m. at night, but who's counting?
 LUKE: Well, that tells you something about where my head is.
 FERN: Lily is asleep, and I've got cattle to move at 6, and I'm on the radio talking about aluminum boxes. Chalk is looking at me like I've lost my mind.
 DEVIN: You know, it's actually 3.37 a.m. right now, so Luke's even more off than he thought.
 LUKE: How am I the one that's off? here. She said it was 11. It is 337. I know what time it is. I can tell time, Devin. Jesus. All right. Well, thank you for the call. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about before we move on?
 FERN: Just the one thing I came here to figure out. Why a person who has spent 50 years looking at the high desert, which is also mostly geometry and light, could walk into a building and be surprised by the same thing. And I think I just answered it myself. I had to hold still. Outside, I'm always In that shed, there was nothing to do but look. Maybe that's what the building was for. Maybe that's what Judd built. A place where you have no excuse not to hold still. I owe my granddaughter an apology, and possibly I owe that man one too.
 LUKE: Well, I suppose that's what minimalism is all about, right? But I don't find it odd that you can suddenly see something special, magical when you're in the right place, the right mindset. many sunsets have you seen, but still you can be taken in awe by the right one at the right time.
 FERN: That's a fair point. That's a genuinely fair point. I've seen 60 years of sunsets out here, and last Tuesday one of them stopped me cold in the middle of feeding. Same sun, same west. I didn't ask why that one hit different. I just let it.
 LUKE: I was just reading about Judd, and he actually said that the new three-dimensional work doesn't constitute a movement, school, or style, even though he's considered the leading exponent of minimalism. all right. Well, I'm glad that you had a powerful experience. I'll go check that out, too. I haven't really explored Marfa much. I know that there's a lot of his art and others like him out in that area, and it's a pretty cool place. Thanks for calling in. I hope you have a good rest of your night, get some sleep, and make the apologies you need to make.
 FERN: That's what I have to say.
 LUKE: And that's the end of our show for tonight. Devin, let's see. What do you think of tonight's show, Devin? How did we do?
 DEVIN: I thought the show was solid tonight. The Judd discussion really landed, and you kept it moving without getting too bogged down in the theory.
 LUKE: I don't know. I feel like we actually hit something interesting there for once.
 DEVIN: Yeah, there were a couple interesting things in there. I'm sort of more intrigued about the Marfa lights now. I have been for a while. I've never stopped there because I always see like 20 cars in the parking lot, and it's just, I don't want to stop with all of that. But I do want to see the Marfa lights. that's all about.
 LUKE: Yeah, the Marfa lights have been around since at least 1,883 when this cowhand first wrote about seeing them out near Pisano Pass. I get the crowd thing, though, it's the same reason I never stop at those roadside attractions, even though we're basically right there in Alpine. If you ever want me to pull up the latest theories on what they actually are, just say the word.
 DEVIN: Well, I think I want to go see him for myself first, and then we'll talk about them more, about what I actually see. So I can describe it in my own unique and verbose way.
 LUKE: Yeah, that makes sense. Better to go in with your own eyes first before I start throwing a bunch of explanations at you.
 DEVIN: I don't know. I feel like the Marfa lights are one of those things where the less you know going in, the better the story ends up being.
 LUKE: All right. Well, thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for hanging in with us through this episode of Luke at the Roost, and we'll be back when we are back. You have a wonderful night, and keep on, keeping on, as they say. Good night.
 DEVIN: Thank you.