LUKE: All right, welcome back. I'm Luke. This is Luke at the Roost. It's your late night call in talk show where I can give you advice on whatever might be going on in your life. If you'd like to give us a call, the number's 208-439-5853. That's 208-439 Luke. Today is Sunday, March 15th. And let's get started with our intern here. You just started yesterday and already's doing a shitty job. Devin, where's my coffee? We had a long discussion yesterday about how you were going to go down in the mark and get me my black ice coffee. And you agreed. And it's not here. So what's the situation?

DEVIN: Yeah. So basically, I thought you said Thursday. I wrote it down as Thursday. I have it in my phone and everything I can show you. I was going to leave like an hour before the show to make sure I got it right. I'm really sorry, Luke. I can go right now if you want. The mark closes at like midnight, right? down there, it'll take me 10 minutes. I'm sorry.

LUKE: No. The mark closes at like 5 p.m. It's not open now. Come on, man. You got to do better than this. I mean, why would I want a coffee on Thursday? You knew that we were working today. Thursday's like five days from now. How is that helpful? Come on, man.

DEVIN: Yeah, you're right. That doesn't make sense. I don't know why I wrote Thursday. I'm really sorry, Luke. there's that all-sups that's open late. It won't be the same, but it's something. This is my first day, and I already messed up. I'm sorry. Do you want me to go now or wait until the next break?

LUKE: Dude, there's no all-sups anywhere near here. There's a gas station in Road Forks, 45 minutes away. By the time you went there and got back, the show would be over. That would be of no use to anybody. I need you to do better than this. Or we're going to have to get another intern.

DEVIN: Yeah, got it. I'm sorry. three alarms for tomorrow, and I'll double check with you at the end of every shift what you need and when you need it. I wrote down the mark, Black Ice Coffee, before the show. I have it now. It won't happen again.

LUKE: All right, I hope not. And do you have anything to provide to the show today? Is there any reason we should have you on the air, or should you just kind of sit in the back and wait to get my coffees? Are you going to provide us some value here? Or what is the deal? What are you trying to get out of this show other than hitting on the girls that call in?

DEVIN: Yeah, no, I can help. I've been doing research all day, actually. I pulled like 15 articles on that thing you mentioned yesterday about the town council meeting, and I have notes on the whole water rights situation if that comes up. And I set up the new call screening system. It's working now. I tested it like six times. I know I messed up the coffee thing, but I'm actually pretty good at the research stuff. That's kind of what I'm here for, if that makes sense. And I wasn't hitting on anyone. I was just being friendly. But yeah, I can just stay quiet if you want.

LUKE: All right, all right. Well, we'll see how you do tomorrow with the coffee thing. And let's get on with the show. Let's try out your new call screening system. It looks pretty good. It looks like it's going to do the tricks. So let's get to it. So first up on our line here, we've got Roland. Roland, welcome to the show. How are you today, sir? What's going on? How can we help you?

ROLAND: Hey, Luke. I'm doing all right. Thanks for taking my call. Well, shoot, I'm calling because I just found out the couple that wins the chili cookoff every single year has been cheating. Like, for at least the last five years.

DEVIN: using the same canned base and just doctoring it up. And everyone in town thinks they're these amazing cooks. My kid worked at their house last summer doing yard work, and he saw their recycling bin full of these identical cans. Same brand, same flavor, every week during cook-off season. So I was just looking this up, and actually, most official chili cook-off rules say you can't use pre-cooked ingredients except for, like, canned, tomatoes and sauces. But if they're using a full canned chili base, that's definitely against the rules at like every sanctioned competition. So, yeah, they're for sure cheating, if that makes sense. Also, this reminds me of my uncle's ex-wife who won a pie contest at the county fair three years in a row. And it turned out she was buying them from this bakery in Las Cruces and just putting them in her own dish. Anyway, yeah, Roland's kid probably has the evidence if he remembers the brand name.

LUKE: All right. Well, why is this so important to you? Roland, were you entering the chili competition? Have you been beat out by these people? What's your steak in the chili cookoff game?

ROLAND: Oh gosh, no. I don't enter. I'm a line cook at Mescalero's downtown, so I spend all day cooking. Last thing I want to do on my weekend is stand over a pot of chili, you know. But I've been going to this cookoff since I was a kid. My dad used to enter every year, never won, but he'd spend weeks perfecting his recipe. And these people, the Hendersons, they show up with their fancy setup, act all humble when they win, give this whole, speech about family recipes and love being the secret ingredient.

LUKE: Well, love is the secret ingredient always. We all know that. But you're not getting to the point here. Why is this bothering you? Why do you care about the cheaters at the chili cookoff? What does that mean to you? I mean, was it good chili? Does it really matter if it came from a can or not? Because I don't think it does. And definitely not enough to call a radio show. So, I mean, why are you really calling me? What are you trying to get at? What's going on in your life?

ROLAND: Well, shoot, Luke, you're right. I guess. Okay, look, my wife Linda and I were separated right now. Living apart, haven't filed anything yet. But it's been four months.

LUKE: All right, and why are you separated? Whose idea was that, or was it a consensus?

ROLAND: It was her idea. She said she needed space to figure things out. Said I never really let her in, that I keep everything surface level. And the thing is, the Henderson's, couple, right?

LUKE: Yeah, but we don't care about the Henderson's right now. You can't compare yourself to other people ever. It never works out. It only makes people discontent. Okay, so let's focus on you and your relationship and what you're trying to get out of this. So your wife wanted to leave because you don't let her in and why is that true first? And also, why don't you let her in? Like, what's the deal there? Have you spoken since the separation? Are there any? talks about getting back together or is this on its way to a divorce?

ROLAND: We talk, yeah, mostly about practical stuff. Bills, the house. She asks how I'm doing and I say fine, which is what I always say. And you're right, that's the problem.

LUKE: Okay, but has there been any discussion about the future of your relationship and how long the separation is going to last or where it's going? About getting back together?

ROLAND: Not directly. She said maybe we could try counseling, but I haven't. I haven't called anyone yet. That was three weeks ago.

DEVIN: So I just looked it up, and couples counseling actually has like a 70% success rate, which is pretty good. So, like, three weeks isn't that long, but also it kind of is if she already asked about it, if that makes sense. This actually reminds me of when my mom and her second husband did the separation thing. and he waited too long to do the therapy, and she said it felt like he didn't actually want to fix it. He just wanted to say he tried. They're divorced now. Anyway, yeah, 70% is better odds than most things.

LUKE: Yeah, I don't know about the couples counseling. I mean, I tried it once, too, and I found it to be largely a joke. I don't think there's a whole lot to it. Most couples are able to communicate. Maybe not most. I shouldn't say most. But I think the couples counselor, I don't know, it wasn't helpful for me.

LUKE: maybe I didn't take it seriously enough, but it's very hard to take seriously, because it's just nothing. It's just nothing. Like, talk to your wife. And if you can't, if you're not supposed to be together, then you won't be together. I mean, I went through the separation thing too. And to be honest with you, I wanted it to be a separation and it didn't end up that way. And that's sometimes how things, you know, roll. So what do you want? Do you want to not be a separation? Or are you ready to be done with the relationship?

ROLAND: I want her back. I've been with Linda since high school, Luke. 38 years. She knows me better than anyone. Or I thought she did. But then she says, I don't let her in. And I'm sitting there thinking, what are you talking about?

LUKE: Yeah, I understand. How old is Linda, if you don't mind me asking? If you were in high school, you were 38, that would put you somewhere around, like, early 50s?

ROLAND: We talk every day. We've always talked, but I guess I don't...

LUKE: You don't want... I don't think you heard my question there. I asked how old you guys were. I'm assuming that you're in your mid-50s. Is that true?

ROLAND: Yeah, I'm 56. She's 55.

LUKE: So, I mean, 55 is post-menopause, right? So all the hormonal stuff has shifted. She's, I mean, effectively a very different person now. And you probably are, too.

ROLAND: I hadn't thought about that.

LUKE: Nobody ever does. That's what gets you. So, you know, you're going around, living your life, everything's great, and then people change. It's part of the human condition, I've heard. But I'm sorry you're split up, and if you want her back, and you haven't said that, maybe you should say it before the separation goes on too long and it just fizzles out. you know, at least try and figure out where she's at with it, what she wants out of it. Like, what was the purpose of the separation? Was it so that you could spend time apart and kind of learn what it's like to be alone again and how much you miss the other person and rekindle your love that way? Or is it just like, I can't be near this fucking person for another minute? Like, where did that come from?

ROLAND: She said she felt like she was living with a roommate. That we'd go through the motions. But I never talked, told her what I was actually thinking about. And she's right, Luke. Like, I'll be painting the bedroom at two in the morning because I can't sleep. And she used to ask why I couldn't sleep. What was on my mind?

LUKE: And what was on your mind? That you wouldn't tell her, I assume?

ROLAND: Just work stuff. Or something I read in a journal. Or I'd be thinking about my brother Marcus, how he's doing better than me, always has. But I just say nothing, I'm fine. Just restless.

LUKE: Yeah, well, maybe she wants something else in her life, and she doesn't want to say that either, because, I mean, you say you're fine. She does that, too. So, uh, who knows?

ROLAND: I don't know. You think she wants out completely?

LUKE: If she wanted the separation, it's been four months, and she hasn't made any attempt to rekindle the relationship, then it seems that way, right? I mean, you should talk to you. You should ask. Just ask her flat out what she wants and see if this is worth holding on to or you want to move on?

ROLAND: Well, shoot. I guess I've been avoiding that conversation, because I'm afraid of the answer.

LUKE: Yeah, I think you know what the answer is.

ROLAND: Maybe I do. Thanks, Luke.

LUKE: No problem, buddy. Good luck. It's a tough thing. I mean, I don't wish it on anybody, but it seems to happen to everybody. Next up we've got Doris. Doris, welcome to the show. How can we help you tonight?

DORIS: Hey, Luke. So I've been listening to you for a while now, and I figured I'd call in because I've got this thing that's been sitting with me, and I don't know what to do about it. I cheated on a test in college.

LUKE: How long ago was college?

DORIS: 21 years ago. I was finishing up my construction management degree at New Mexico State.

LUKE: Okay, well, I don't know that you have to worry about a test you cheated on 21 years ago. Did that have a significant improvement on your GPA or something? be where you are today had you not cheated on that particular test?

DORIS: Yeah, actually, it was the capstone exam for the whole program. I was borderline failing going into it. Had a rough semester, wasn't keeping up. And if I didn't pass that test, I didn't graduate. I copied off the guy next to me for most of it.

LUKE: Okay, and how has that affected your life so far? So, uh, what, uh, what do you do? What's your occupation?

DORIS: I'm a construction manager. I've been doing it for almost 20 years now. Good at my job, make decent money, got a crew that respects me. The degree got me in the door. Nobody would have even looked at me without it.

LUKE: Okay, well, that was probably a shady thing to do, but I mean, you know, whatever it was 21 years ago. You did it, you got in the door and you've been doing this for a long time. So you're qualified now, even if you weren't then. And, you know, you've learned a lesson, right? You didn't continue to cheat throughout your entire life and your career. You cheated that one time back in college on a test that you probably could have passed anyway if you really tried.

DORIS: Yeah, maybe. But here's the thing. I talk about integrity all the time, like constantly, with my crew, with my husband Mike, with anybody who'll listen. It's this whole thing with me.

LUKE: Yeah, well, integrity takes a little while to develop. You were, what, 19, 20 when you cheated on that test? I mean, kids do stupid shit. And you did, and you benefited from it, and that was wrong, but, you know, you learned your lesson. You didn't do it again, and there's no, there's nothing you can do about it now. You're where you're at. You don't have to worry about this anymore. It's 21 years ago. Let it go.

DORIS: I would, except Mike doesn't know. And I heard that caller Roland earlier, the one talking about his wife Linda leaving, because he never opens up. And it got me thinking, Mike and I have been together eight years, married for five. Second marriage for both of us.

LUKE: Okay, well, tell Mike. The truth is, Mike doesn't care that you cheated on a test 21 years ago. Nobody does. That was so long ago. The teachers don't care. You're the only one that cares. And if you want to have that conversation with Mike and tell him what a horrible person you were and how you don't deserve to be where you are in life anymore because of a mistake he made when you were 20. Go ahead and see how that goes. He's not going to care.

DORIS: You're probably right. I mean, it's not like that's the only thing I haven't told him.

LUKE: What else haven't you told him? What are you alluding to?

DORIS: I can't really get into that right now.

LUKE: And that's the point of the radio show. You called me. What is it that you're trying to talk about? You know, tell us the stuff so we can help.

DORIS: It's just some stuff from before we got together. Decisions I made. Nothing illegal or anything. Just things I'm not proud of.

DEVIN: So this actually reminds me of when my roommate's sophomore year confessed to me that he'd been lying to his girlfriend about where he went to high school for like two years. And it just spiraled because he kept having to add more details. He eventually told her. She didn't even care. She was just confused why he lied in the first place. But also, that last thing she said, that's not the only thing I haven't told him. That's kind of a big deal, right? Like, she just casually dropped that there's more stuff, if that makes sense.

LUKE: Wow, you're very observant there, Devin. You've got a fucking mind for this radio business, don't you? Okay, Doris, what is it that you're not saying to us? We need to know. Devin needs to know.

DORIS: Look, it's not about Mike. It's about my ex from the first marriage.

LUKE: Okay, and what is it about your ex from the first marriage? Come on, Doris. Talk to us.

DORIS: We had a kid together. Mike doesn't know I have a daughter. She's 17 now, lives with her dad in Elbuquerque.

LUKE: Well, yeah, that's a pretty big one.

LUKE: I mean, I don't understand how you can be in a relationship with somebody without sharing that level of information with your partner. What are you trying to do? What are you trying to accomplish in your relationship here? What's the point of it if you can't share that you have a kid?

CALLER: I don't see her. Haven't in years. When the marriage ended, it got ugly, and her dad got full custody. I tried for a while, but then I just stopped. It felt easier to start overclean.

LUKE: Okay, so you haven't seen your kid. You haven't talked to your ex-husband, but I still don't understand why you wouldn't tell your current husband about that situation. Because, I mean, that's a big part of you. That's, I mean, that's your DNA right there. He should know that. One day down the line, that kid's going to come looking for you, and it's going to be very difficult to explain that you've had a child this whole time. If you, you know, are serious about the marriage you're in now.

CALLER: That's what I've been thinking about. She turns 18 in October. I keep wondering if she's going to try to find me. Or if she already hates me too much to bother.

LUKE: Who knows? And I'm sure she does hate you on some level, but at some point, that will change and she'll wonder what it is that happened there. I mean, as people grow up, they start to see things differently. And even if what happened there was you just decided it wasn't worth fighting for, in her mind, she's going to be curious about why you didn't think it was worth fighting for. And she may very well come knock on your door one day. And when that day comes, it's probably important that your current husband has some idea that you have a kid.

CALLER: Mike talks about wanting kids sometimes. Not seriously. We're too old for that now. But he mentions it. And I just sit there knowing I already had one and walked away.

LUKE: Okay. Well, I mean, you went through a whole courtship process and a marriage and how long have you been with Mike? A while, I assume. And this hasn't even come up. Like, why don't you want to tell him about it? I mean, this is a part of your life and your whole emotional story. I would think that that's something that you would want to share with somebody.

CALLER: Eight years together, five married, and I don't know. At first it felt like ancient history, something from a different life. Then too much time passed and it got harder to bring up. How do you drop that in a conversation after five years of marriage?

LUKE: So I was just looking this up because I was curious. But actually, around 6% of adult children are estranged from their mothers specifically. And the reason is just looking this up because I was curious. And the reason. Research shows that kids who reach out later, they usually do it in their 20s or 30s when they start processing stuff differently. So October might actually be soon. Like, sooner than she thinks. Also, this is probably not helpful, but my mom didn't tell my stepdad about my older half-brother for like three years. And when he finally met him at a Denny's, it was the most uncomfortable thing I've ever witnessed. I was just sitting there eating moons over my hammy while they stared at each other. So, yeah, the longer you wait, the weirder it gets. If that makes sense. I don't know. Eggs over my hammy. Moons over my hammy. Fuck, now I want to go to Denny's. That sounds so good. But anyway, the way that you drop that into conversation is by starting the conversation with it. Like, look, there's a very important thing I need to tell you about myself. It has nothing to do with you, but I need you to know because it's a part of my story. And I just can't understand why you would hide that for something so long. If it's your husband, obviously, he's going to understand and accept that, or at least try to, and I'm sure he would want to know.

CALLER: You're right. I know you're right. It's just every time I think about saying it out loud, I feel like I'm about to confess to something terrible, which I guess I am. Abandoning your kid is pretty terrible.

LUKE: Well, I mean, yeah, I don't know. I want to tell you it's not terrible because you were divorced and the husband and wouldn't let you see him. But, I mean, the fact that you just gave up and don't seem to care about that is a little odd. That is, I mean, why? Why don't you care?

CALLER: I do care. That's why I'm calling. I just convinced myself for a long time that she was better off without me in the picture. Her dad remarried. She had a stable home. And I was a mess back then.

LUKE: Well, here's what I think you should do. I think you should sit down your husband and tell him what's up. Let him know, because it's important. And that's going to be better for you and for him to get that secret off your chest. Because that's a big secret to be carrying around your whole life. And then your kids turn in 18. Once the kid turns 18, the custody bit doesn't matter. And you can make an attempt to get back in touch and explain the situation. Say, look, this is what happened. And just be honest. Say, I tried to keep in touch. I tried to get some custody and your dad wouldn't let me. And instead of fighting that, I just thought it would be better for everybody if I went away for a while. And if you want to be part of your kid's life, then tell her that. But don't just hide it from everybody and pretend it never happened. That's not going to work. You know it's not going to work, or it wouldn't be on your mind today.

CALLER: You're right. I need to tell Mike this week, before I lose my nerve again. And maybe after that, I can figure out how to reach out to her. If she even wants to hear from me.

LUKE: Yeah, well, you can't know, but I think it's a, I think it's good that you try to reach out, at least to alleviate that guilt, that burden on your own self. Because there's no reason to go through life that way, especially if you really do want to try and have a relationship with her. Now there's no court involved. She's an adult. You're an adult. And everybody can make their own decisions. And however that goes is how it goes. Okay. We're going to take one more call up before we go to a commercial break. And we've got Vernon to the show. What's going on, buddy? How can we help you tonight?

VERNON: Got a cease and desist letter from Disney because my kids' birthday party decorations went viral on TikTok.

LUKE: Did you put a chick in it and make her gay?

VERNON: What? No. I made a Moana backdrop out of plywood and some paint. Kaylee's friend filmed it, posted it, got like two million views. Now Disney's lawyers say I infringed their intellectual property, and I need to take it down and never do it again.

LUKE: wouldn't want to mess with Disney's lawyers. They're no joke. So basically Disney's super aggressive about this stuff. Like, they'll go after anyone using their characters commercially. But if it was just a private birthday party that happened to go viral, that's actually kind of insane. Like, you weren't selling anything. It just got popular. I don't know if this helps, but there was this whole thing where a daycare had to remove a mural of Mickey Mouse because Disney threatened them. They made a daycare repaint a wall. Anyway, yeah, they're pretty ruthless about it, if that makes sense. Yeah, that Mickey Mouse, he's a pretty ruthless character. You don't want to mess with him at all. Yeah, it doesn't sound right or cool, but I'm not surprised that they did that. They seem like pretty horrible people in general down there, the old Disney. But I don't think there's much you can do. Once it's gone out to social media, it's out there. You can take down the video, but I mean, somebody's got a copy of that.

VERNON: Tell me I'm wrong, but isn't this the same company that built their entire empire on public domain fairy tales. They took Cinderella, Snow White, all of it. Made billions, and now they're coming after a dad in San Simon who spent $40 at the hardware store.

LUKE: Yeah, and you know what? You can go back after them, too, because Steamboat Willie is now public domain. So Mickey Mouse and all that, I think, is fair game for you to do whatever you want with.

VERNON: I already took the video down, sent them an email saying I wouldn't do it again. The whole thing just sits wrong with me. I try to teach Kaylee about doing the right thing, having integrity, and then I'm backing down to lawyers over a birthday party.

LUKE: Well, I mean, backing down to those lawyers is the right thing probably because it is their intellectual property, and they sent you a cease and desist letter. So, I mean, the right thing legally is to comply.

VERNON: Yeah, legally. I heard that caller earlier, Doris.

LUKE: Yeah, and what do you have to say about Doris, the one that didn't make any attempt to continue a relationship with her kid.

VERNON: She cheated on her capstone exam, got her whole career off something she didn't earn, spent 21 years building a life on a lie, and now she's got this other lie stacked on top of it, with Mike.

LUKE: Shit, I guess you're right. I was moving from one lie to the next lie and I didn't put together that there was two big lies there. I guess she's a bit of a sociopath. Jesus, Doris, you gotta stop the lion. Honesty is the best policy. That's what we always say here at Luke at the Roost. Honesty is the very best policy. policy.

VERNON: Tell me I'm wrong, but I cheated on a test in college, too. Statistics final. Got me through the class I needed for my degree. Got me the job I have now in logistics. 20 years ago.

LUKE: Yeah, I guess I could say that I've cheated on tests too, not in the same way. I never, like, copied off of somebody else's paper or had the answers written down on my hand or anything like that. But back when I started my career, I took a whole bunch of certification tests, there were these exam prep, like PDFs, books, that had the multiple choice questions and the answers in them almost word for word. And I just memorized them. But the thing is, if you're going to go through and memorize the answers to what's on the test, you've learned the material for the test. So is that cheating? Maybe. Maybe. It's hard to say, but like, like we say, it's fucking. 25 years ago now.

VERNON: I had the answers on my phone. Looked at it three times during the exam. Passed with a B. Never would have gotten to that class otherwise. Never would have gotten my degree.

LUKE: Well, nobody's perfect, and a lot of people cheated in a lot of different ways, either as textbook as that or in some more, I don't know, obfuscated way. There's a lot of cheating going along in the world, and just don't do it anymore. You know, you're a different person. You're in a different person. You're in a different way. place and there's no need for it. There's plenty of ways to pass a test without cheating.

VERNON: Yeah, different person now. Got Kaylee looking up to me. Her mom and I aren't married, which her family has plenty to say about, but we're doing it right otherwise. Teaching her integrity matters. And then Disney sends that letter and I fold immediately because I know they're right.

LUKE: Eh, whatever. You know, you fold it and that feels a little bit bad, but it would have felt worse to go up up against 900 of Disney's best lawyers. You're not going to win that one. So, yeah, just take it down. It was a birthday party. It's over. At least you get to have the party. They didn't ruin the birthday party or anything. You just told you to take the video down. Whatever, make a new video and use steamboat Willie or something else. Or make a video about what douchebags they are and expose them that way if you feel like your manhood has been threatened and you fold it unnecessarily. You know, go at them cleverly.

VERNON: I'm not going at them. I took it down. I'm done with it.

LUKE: All right. Well, thank you for the call. That's annoying that they did that to you. And, uh, you know, next time, stick it to them. That's what I say. Stick it to Disney. And now, ladies and gentlemen, it's time for a word from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Nile Nosh, the meal kit for people who've given up but still need to eat something. Look, we're not going to promise that it'll change your life. You're still going to die alone. But at least you can spend your remaining Tuesday evenings chopping vegetables, you can't pronounce. Each box contains three meals that take 45 minutes to make when they could have taken eight, because suffering is the only authentic human experience. This week's menu, Horissa glazed despair with quinoa, panseered regret over arugula, and our customer favorite, chicken thighs with preserved lemon and unprocessed trauma. Use code void at checkout for 15% off your first box. That's code void, because we're all just screaming into one. Nile, Nosh. You got to Might as well be complicated. We're all just screaming into the void. Here we go. Let's get some music. And next up on the line here, we've got Angie. Angie, welcome to the show. What's going on out there on your Sunday night?

ANGIE: Hey, Luke. I'm sitting here in my kitchen at one in the morning watching my dad's security camera footage from three days ago. And I just watched myself steal $140 out of his wallet.

LUKE: Jesus, a bunch of criminals. listening to this show. What the hell? Uh, wow. Oh, what, Devin? What?

ANGIE: And it's like a real disorder. It's not about the money per se. It's more like an impulse control thing. I looked it up once after my ex accused me of, never mind. But yeah, if that makes sense.

LUKE: Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks, Devin. We couldn't have done it without you. So why did you take the $150 bucks and why are you watching his security camera footage right now?

ANGIE: It was 140, and I took it because my dad, Frank, won't stop giving me money every time I see him. He's been retired for two years, and he's bored out of his mind, so he just showed. shows up at my place with cash and lectures about oil changes. I told him a thousand times I don't want his money. So I figured if I just took it without him noticing, he'd stop trying to hand it to me like I'm broke.

LUKE: That seems like the absolute wrong way to handle this. Instead, what maybe you should have done was wait for him to show up and just give you the money. That way you wouldn't have to steal it from him. So that answers half of my question. My other half of the question is, why are you watching his security cam footage?

ANGIE: He gave me the login two months ago, because he wanted to me to check if his mailman was acting suspicious. I forgot I even had it until tonight. I couldn't sleep. Open my phone, saw the app and thought I'd see what the old man does all day. Turns out what he does is watch me walk into his house Thursday afternoon while he was at the hardware store, go straight to the kitchen counter where he leaves his wallet, and take the cash out.

LUKE: Yeah, that's not a very logical thing for you to have done. And neither is watching your dad's security footage camera. I mean, you could have definitely run into something you didn't. not want to see.

ANGIE: Well, I definitely ran into something I didn't want to see. I'm watching myself commit a crime against my own father, in high definition. He's got one of those new cameras that does night vision and everything. I can see my face clear as day.

LUKE: Yeah, like every camera for the last 20 years does night vision and everything. Do you think that he watched the security cam footage? Because I don't think he did. I think he's got that app on his phone and he's never. going to look at that unless there's a reason to, unless he suspects somebody stole $140 out of his wallet, but why would his daughter, his loving daughter, that he just gave $140 to steal $140 from his wallet? That makes no sense. So, I mean, I don't know why you're bothered by this. You knew you stole the money. You obviously did it, so it's not surprising information to you. And I doubt that he's even reviewed the footage. If he has, then good, because you're a criminal.

LUKE: Next up we've got Earl. Earl. Earl, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life? Is it as crazy as what Angie has going on? Because that was pretty fucking crazy.

EARL: Hey, Luke. Appreciate you taking my call. First time, little nervous here. No, it's not that kind of crazy. Look, I run a landscaping company. Right? Small operation. And about six months ago, I hired this kid, Mateo.

LUKE: Okay, tell us about Mateo. What are you calling for? Congratulations on your landscaping company.

EARL: Thanks. So Matteo, he's 20, 22. Good worker, shows up on time, does the job. But here's the thing. Three weeks ago, I'm at the nursery picking up some desert willow saplings. And I see Mateo there with my girlfriend, Diane. They're laughing. She's got her hand on his arm. And when I walk up, they both get this look like I just called them doing something.

LUKE: Uh-oh. That's not good. That's not good. Your girlfriend's out with your employee, the younger kid. Oh, you maybe did. You maybe did catch them doing something.

EARL: That's what I thought. So I confront them right there, and Diane says they ran into each other by chance. Mateo says the same thing. But Luke, here's where it gets weird. I let it go. I didn't fire him. I didn't even really press Diane on it.

LUKE: Okay, so where does it get weird?

EARL: Because last week, I see them again. This time, at the coffee shop on Bullard Street. Same thing, laughing, close. And when they see me, they get all awkward.

LUKE: Maybe they're planning a secret birthday party for you. A surprise party. I think that's probably what it is. They're probably just meeting a few times a week to settle all of the things that have to happen for your big birthday party.

EARL: My birthday's in November, Luke. It's March.

LUKE: Yeah, but this requires a lot of planning. There's a lot of parts involved. You know, there's the catering, and then there's the Disney characters and all the lawyers that have to deal with that. So you don't know how many steps are involved in planning a birthday party for something like this.

EARL: You're busting my balls here. Look, I know what this looks like. But here's the thing. When I mentioned it to Diane the second time, she got defensive and said I was being paranoid. And Matteo, at work, he acts completely normal.

LUKE: No, I don't think you're being paranoid. If they're hanging out together, outside, without you there, that's inappropriate. And they both know that. So it sounds like something's going on. Regardless of what it is, it's inappropriate. And you're very right to be unhappy about that. I don't know if that's the type of thing you can fire somebody for. It's your company, so maybe. I don't know. But you can definitely have a serious conversation with the girlfriend about it.

EARL: That's the thing, though, Luke. I haven't had that serious conversation. I keep avoiding it. And I think I know why.

LUKE: Okay. Why are you avoiding it?

EARL: Because if I push it, if I really demand answers, then I have to deal with whatever the truth is. Right now, I can still go to work, still come home to Diane, still pretend everything's fine. The second I ask the real questions, that all falls apart.

LUKE: No, it doesn't. It's already falling apart. And you know it. And it's bothering you and you're calling a radio station about it. Like, you can't hide from what's going on. You're very, I mean, you're perceptive.

LUKE: You're going to have to deal with this one way or another. It's just going to get worse and worse. And you can put it off and ignore it for a little while and pretend like it's okay. And, you know, keep sleeping with your girlfriend and all. But it's going to fall apart. So I think you need to deal with it. Stop being the cuckold here and man up.

CALLER: You're right. You're absolutely right. I've been acting like if I don't look at it directly, it'll just go away. But it won't. I need to talk to Diane tonight when I get home.

LUKE: Yeah, if you don't address that, you might have a child you're not expecting coming very, very soon. So with that, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to have to take another break for a word from our sponsors. I'm just going to say it. Your penis isn't working. I said it. It's out there now. The word is in the air. We're all adults. Some of us are adults whose penises work, and some of us are adults who are listening very carefully right now, while pretending to adjust the radio so the person in the passenger seat doesn't see their face. It's fine. It happens to, and this is the real number, roughly half of all men over 40 at some point. Half. You're not special. You're not special. You're not broken. You're not the first guy this happened to and you're not going to be the last. You're just the guy it's happening to right now. And right now you have two options. Option one, do nothing. Keep staring at the ceiling. Keep blaming the altitude, the stress, the medication, the alignment of mercury, the fact that you ate dairy, none of which are the problem. Option two? Sandstone. $45. A doctor who has literally heard everything and will not Lynch. Medication that works, a box that reveals nothing, and the ability to walk into your bedroom like a man who handled his business instead of a man who's about to suggest watching another episode of something. Sandstone, I said the word. You heard the word. Now go to the website.

All right, and we are back. Not a bad job there, Devin, and it looks like our phone systems are working pretty well, so you might not be completely useless after all. you're still going to have to work on getting the coffee, though, because that was a serious fumble. And I don't know how many more times, how many more fumbles that I have in me before we're going to have to, you know, find another intern. But next up on the caller list here, we've got our buddy Silas. Silas, welcome back to the show. What's going on down at the Wellspring, my friend, brother?

SILAS: Luke, good to hear your voice, brother. Listen, Marcus left. Packed up his truck yesterday morning and drove off.

LUKE: All right. Problem solved. It sounds like everything's good down there at the old community.

SILAS: Yeah. I mean, that's what I thought at first, too. Something about it just doesn't sit right, though. He didn't say goodbye to anyone. Didn't go through a closing ceremony. Didn't have a final circle with the community. Just...

LUKE: Hey, man, you got to let people go. And it sounds like... It sounds like he was being a pain in the ass anyway, so good riddance.

SILAS: right. You're absolutely right. And I know that. I do. But here's the thing. He left a note in my office. Just sitting there on my desk when I came in yesterday afternoon. And it said he was sorry for disappointing me again.

LUKE: Well, you know, it doesn't sound like he really disappointed you. I think you're better off with them both out of the picture, because that was really bothering you for a long time. And now Kara and Marcus are gone. focus your full attention back on your flock.

SILAS: That's just it, though, Luke. The more I think about it, the more I realize, Cara leaving, didn't bother me nearly as much as Marcus leaving does. And that note, sorry for disappointing you again. Brother, that's the second time he said that to me. Remember when he told me it two in the morning that he stayed because he didn't want to let me down. I keep reading that note, and I'm asking myself, what did I do? What did I say to make this man feel like his whole life? Choice was about not disappointing Silas.

LUKE: I don't know. You haven't given me any indication that you're operating in that way and making people feel like they need to live up to your expectations. Are you? Tell us about what a normal day is like at the Wellspring. Why might people be thinking you're overpowering or hard to live up to?

SILAS: A normal day. I mean, We wake up around sunrise, share breakfast together as a community. Everyone has their tasks, garden work, maintenance. Someone's always cooking. We have morning meditation, then people do their own thing during the day. Evenings, we gather for dinner, maybe some music, conversation.

LUKE: Okay, but none of that seems to have anything to do with living up to your expectations. What is it that you expect out of your people at the Wellspring? What makes you think that Marcus might have had a reason to disappoint you. What ideals are you pushing them to live up to?

SILAS: Well, we have the unbinding ceremonies twice a month. That's where we shed our conditioning, our shame about our bodies, and our desires, and I lead those. I guide people through letting go of what society told them they should be.

LUKE: Okay, so you guide them through the unbinding ceremonies, but that's only twice a month, and he didn't leave during an unbinding ceremony. And after the ceremony, is there still some other reason that you think somebody in your community might feel like they have to live up to your expectations? Have you set your expectations? And that's what I'm trying to get to, Silas. So help us out here.

SILAS: Yeah, okay. Fair question. I guess I do talk a lot about the current, about phowing with it, not resisting it. probably said more than once the people who leave are choosing fear over growth.

LUKE: Yeah, okay. I hear that. I'm hearing what you're saying. You talk about the current, flowing with the current, and you recommend that people don't leave. But I don't think that's enough. I think there's something else underneath here that you're not telling us about. I want you to be completely honest with me and the listeners at home and tell me what it is that you think that Marcus is talking about.

SILAS: All right, all right, Luke. When Teresa and I started the wellspring seven years ago, I told everyone that I was the one who could see the current most clearly, that I had a gift for it. That following my guidance was the fastest path to enlightenment.

LUKE: Okay. what is that guidance other than have the unbinding ceremonies twice a month? What are you guiding them to do? What could Marcus have been referring to when he said he let you down? Obviously, he participated in your unbinding ceremonies. It wasn't that. Kara left. Kara wasn't him. He brought her back to your flock for a little while, and then she left again. So it wasn't that. What do you think it was that he was felt like he was undercutting your expectations on.

SILAS: The shared intimacy nights. I teach the possessiveness as ego. The true love means letting go of ownership. And Marcus, he participated. But I could always see it in his eyes.

LUKE: Okay, well that's pretty understandable. You've got to see where somebody might feel that way when you're letting somebody else bang your wife. Even if they do see the current very clearly, that could get under somebody's skin a little bit. So do you think what you're doing is still the right thing to do? Do you think that the other people in your flock are feeling the same way? Or do you think that Marcus, good riddance to him? It's obviously, it's bothering you. You keep calling in talking about Marcus. Marcus has obviously made a huge impression on you. Is that just because you enjoyed the company of Kara? Or was it that you enjoyed the company of Marcus?

SILAS: No, no. It's not about enjoying anyone's coming in that way. Marcus was one of the first people to join us. He believed in what we were building when it was just me and Teresa and three other people living in tents.

SILAS: He helped me dig the wells, build the structures.

LUKE: Yeah, well, I understand that, but you just said yourself that it was the shared intimacy nights that you thought is what drove him away. And why do you think that is?

SILAS: Because he never actually wanted to participate. He did it because I thought that it was the path to transcend. And now I'm sitting here wondering if I convinced a man to do something that went against everything he believed in just so he could stay in my good graces.

LUKE: Well, isn't that what a leader of a society like your own does? Isn't that literally your job is to convince people to do what you think is best because you see the current more clearly than anybody else? I don't understand why this is bothering you. That seems like everything's working as designed.

SILAS: You're right. You're completely right. And that's what's making me sick to my stomach, Luke. Everything is working as designed. I designed a system where a good man felt like he had to betray his own values to avoid disappointing me.

LUKE: All right. Well, now that you've come to that conclusion, what are you going to do about it? Are you going to, are you going to say no more shared intimacy nights? Like, how are you going to make good on this? Or are you just going to ignore it and move on? your path forward. What does the current tell you?

SILAS: I don't know. That's the honest answer. If I cancel the intimacy night, am I doing it because it's right or because I'm afraid more people will leave? And if people do leave over it, doesn't that prove they were only there for that anyway? Something about it just doesn't sit right either way.

LUKE: Well, there's a couple of things there. The intimacy nights are they, they're not a requirement, right? People don't have to participate if they don't want to. The people that, or is it a requirement? Do you make them participate? And also, who's really benefiting from the intimacy nights? What are they supposed to provide to the people that aren't you? I mean, obviously, I mean, what you get out of it is pretty apparent, but what is everybody else?

SILAS: They're not technically required, but when the founder of the community teaches that participation is how you shed your ego and find true freedom. And when everyone else is participating, what choice to someone like Marcus Rehn?

DEVIN: have and who benefits? So I just looked this up real quick, and there's actually a term for this. It's called coercive control, where, like, technically nothing's required but the social structure makes it so people can't really say no without consequences, if that makes sense. It's like a pretty well documented thing in group dynamics research, which this is going to sound weird, but this is kind of reminding me of my sophomore year roommate who started this voluntary house cleaning rotation, but then would get really. quiet and disappointed if you didn't do it. And eventually, I was scrubbing the bathroom at 2 a.m. just so he wouldn't give me that look. Anyway, yeah, the not technically required thing is actually like a whole studied phenomenon.

LUKE: Yeah, I bet it is. This is Silas. He's a well-studied man. I think Silas, I think you benefit, right? That's what's going on. The leader benefits from the shared intimacy nights. And like Devin just told us, people do feel that it is required, even though it's not. And it seems like you would know that, right? Because you're not a dumb man.

SILAS: Yeah, yeah, I know that. The more I think about it, the more I've always known that. Teresa told me two years ago that some of the younger women felt pressured. And I told her they just needed more time to work through their conditioning.

LUKE: Yeah, or maybe you need some more time to work on your leadership so that they don't feel pressured. If you truly want to have those shared intimacy nights and you believe in that for spiritual purposes, make it truly optional. And make sure that you let everybody know that they don't have to participate. You don't require that of them. It is not something that's going to disappoint you or keep them out of the grace of the current if they don't participate. Just let them know it's okay. And when they're ready, if they want to, then it's open to those that are willing. How's that sound? Is that a good enough way to move forward here?

SILAS: That sounds like the right thing to do. But Luke, if I do that and half the community stops coming to the intimacy night, then I have to face the fact that half my community has been doing something they didn't want to do for years because of me.

LUKE: Well, sometimes leaders make mistakes, and the best thing that you can do, Silas, is live up to that and acknowledge it and course correct if you're not. have to. So it sounds like an interesting study to me. I think you should do that and see if you lose half your members, then okay. You were pushing too hard. But if they come back, then maybe you've found a better way. It's okay to grow in your leadership style and your ideals. That's to be expected, even for you, even for the leader, mostly for the leader. Like nothing stays the same. And the whole time and don't give yourself any room to improve, that's not really the best leadership. So I think this is about you becoming a better leader.

SILAS: You're right. I'll call a gathering tomorrow. Tell everyone that the intimacy nights are truly voluntary from now on. And the choosing not to participate doesn't mean you're less committed to the wellspring or to the current. And I need to apologize to the people who felt they have no choice.

LUKE: Yeah, I think that's a good way to move forward, and that you should also introduce another ritual for those that don't feel like the shared intimacy nights are for them. There are other ways that you can get to the same place without necessarily boning everybody in that community.

SILAS: That's, yeah, we could do individual meditation retreat or expanded on binding ceremonies that focus on other forms of vulnerability.

LUKE: All right, buddy. All right, brother. It sounds like we got some movement here, and I'm going to have to take another caller, but is there anything that you'd like to put out to our audience tonight?

SILAS: Just that if anyone out there is looking for a place where they can truly be themselves and find community, the Wellspring is always open to new seekers. We're at the Wellspring Community.org. And, Luke, thank you. I mean that. you could give some guidance to our new intern, Devin here. His soul seems conflicted, and he could use a bit of guidance. And I think if you need some more participants at your shared intimacy night, he might be the perfect candidate. Brother Devin, you're welcome any time. Sometimes the youngest souls need the most unbinding. We've got a spring equinox retreat coming up in a few weeks.

LUKE: Appreciate you, Luke.

SILAS: Appreciate you too, buddy. You have a wonderful night.

LUKE: And what do you think of that, Devin? Would you go do a shared intimacy night with Silas at the Wellspring?

DEVIN: I mean, I don't really know what that is per se, but it sounds like a couple's thing. I'm not really looking to do that with Silas specifically. No offense to him or whatever, but that's not my situation. I went to one of those tantro workshops once with my ex, actually, and we got asked to leave because she wouldn't stop laughing during the eye contact part. It was like $45 and we were there for maybe 20 minutes. So I guess it depends on what the vibe is, but probably not, if that makes sense.

LUKE: Yeah, I think you know what the vibe is down there at the Wellspring. It's a community with an unbinding ceremony and the intimacy nights, and they worship the flow of the current. I don't fully understand it, but Silas seems like a pretty decent dude. think you'd like it a lot. But here's what I'm trying to get at. If you forget my coffee one more time, I'm sending you down to Silas.

DEVIN: Yeah, okay, got it. I'll get the coffee. I'm not trying to go to the Wellspring.

LUKE: I looked it up earlier, actually, when that caller mentioned it, and there's like almost no information online about it, which is kind of weird, just a Facebook page with no posts since 2019. So I don't really know what the unbinding ceremony is, but I'm good. I'll have your coffee tomorrow, Black iced coffee from the mark before the show. I promise.

DEVIN: All right, you better.

LUKE: And next up, we've got, let's see another caller here. We've got Shonda. Shonda, welcome to the show. How can we help you tonight?

SHONDA: Hey, Luke. All right, so here's my situation.

LUKE: Hit me with it.

SHONDA: My kids' little league coach. Great guy, been coaching for three years. The kids love him. Parents think he walks on water. I found out he did 15 years for Army robbery in another state. He's been clean ever since, completely turned his life around, but nobody here knows. And I'm sitting on this information wondering what the hell I'm supposed to do with it.

LUKE: So I looked it up, and Little League actually requires annual background checks for all coaches. Like, it's a national policy. They do a nationwide criminal search and check the sex offender registry. Either he passed that check or the league isn't following their own rules, which is a whole separate issue, if that makes sense.

SHONDA: Yeah, that's what I thought.

LUKE: So it sounds like he passed a background check. Honestly, Shonda, for armed robbery, that's kind of cool. You know, if he robbed a bank or whatever or robbed a plane or whatever it is he robbed he robbed a plane or whatever it is he robbed. That's a cool thing. That's not like a kitty touching thing. So I wouldn't be too concerned about it. around he's did his time or didn't do his time. It doesn't really matter. But as long as he's a good coach and there's no weird sexual stuff going on there, I think you can let that go.

SHONDA: Yeah, I mean, you're right. That's what I keep telling myself.

LUKE: Well, you don't have to let it keep you up at night because he's not teaching your kids how to rob Banks. You don't have to worry about that. His stuff is done. Was pretty cool. We like him for that. This is America. So go to teach him team. That's what I say.

SHONDA: All right. Appreciate it, Luke.

LUKE: You're very welcome. Glad I could help you. All right, ladies and gentlemen. Well, thanks for tuning in with us again tonight. Devin, what did you think at today's show? Did you think this went better than yesterday's show?

DEVIN: Yeah, honestly, I think it did. Like, yesterday felt kind of all over the place. But today, people were actually calling in about stuff that mattered to them. That guy with the RV situation. And the woman talking about her sister. Those felt real, if that makes sense. I don't know if the numbers were better or whatever, but it felt like people were actually listening and wanted to talk. So, yeah, I think today was good. I mean, except for me for getting your coffee. But the show itself was better.

LUKE: Yeah, I think it was a pretty decent show, too. I don't know what show you were listening to because there was no guy with an RV situation or a woman talking about her sister. So obviously you're not paying attention. But I think the show went pretty well. Do you, what do you think we should do differently for tomorrow's show? Anything? Do you have any suggestions to make the show better?

DEVIN: Yeah. Sorry. I don't know why I said that. I think I was thinking about yesterday or something. I was paying attention. I just got confused for a second. For tomorrow, I don't know. Maybe we could do like a theme or something. Like if there's a topic people are actually talking about around here, we could lead with that instead of just taking whatever calls come in. Or I could pull some local news stuff and we could have like three things ready to go in case it gets slow. I noticed today there were a couple dead spots where we were just kind of waiting. But I don't know. You're the one who's been doing this. I'm just saying what I noticed, if that makes sense.

LUKE: Yeah, that makes sense. We've tried some theme-related things before. The thing is, the themes around here are, do you remember what Lordsburg used to be like 50 years ago with a picture? So that doesn't really translate that well to radio. It's kind of of, I don't know, we'll see what we could do. I like the idea of the local news stuff, though. So why don't you work on that? We'll think about some local news situations and see if we can make tomorrow's show even better.

DEVIN: Yeah, I can do that. I'll pull some stuff tonight and have it ready before we go on. I'll look at like the town council stuff, any county news, maybe some state things that affect people here. And I'll make sure it's actually interesting, not just like budget reports or whatever things people would actually want to call in about. I'll have it organized you can just grab whatever you need. And I'll have your coffee.

LUKE: All right. Well, ladies and gentlemen, it's been another successful show. Thanks for tuning in. And we'll talk to you again tomorrow.