LUKE: All right, welcome back. I'm your host Luke. This is Luke at the Roost, the call-in radio show where you can call in and tell me about what's going on in your life. I'll give you the best advice I can. If you'd like to call in, the number is 208-439-58-3. That's 208-439 Luke. If you're not near a phone or you can't call right now, we can take emails. You can email us at submissions at Luke at the Roast. We'll take your email and if I think it's funny enough, we might read it on the show. So, with that being said, it's Sunday, February 22nd and we're going to get to our callers here. The phone is lighting up and today we've got Dexter. Dexter, thanks for calling in. What's going on in your life tonight?

DEXTER: Hey, Luke. Yeah. So I've been reading this Marcus Aurelius book. Right. The Stoic philosophy stuff. And I actually think it's making me worse. Like, I'm getting good at not feeling anything and my mom called me out on it tonight and now I'm sitting here wondering if I've just traded one kind of numbness for another.

LUKE: Are you talking about meditations? I think maybe you're missing the point. Marcus Aurelius never said not to have any emotions. He said not to let them control you. There's a difference.

DEXTER: Yeah, meditations. That's the one. And okay, maybe you're right. But here's the thing. This afternoon, my boss just tore into this kid for 20 minutes straight. I mean really laying into him over something that wasn't even that big of a deal, and I just stood there watching it happen. Didn't feel angry, didn't feel bad for the kid, didn't feel anything. I was just breathing through it like the book says, staying calm, and afterward I felt nothing, which I thought was the whole point, but then my mom calls, and she can tell something's off just from my voice.

LUKE: Yeah, well, it doesn't sound like you felt nothing, made an impression on you. You're still thinking about it now. So it obviously made you feel something that maybe you're trying to repress or push away or not acknowledge. But it did something to you to keep it on your mind for this long.

DEXTER: Shit. Yeah, okay, you're right. I'm still thinking about it because it pissed me off. Not even at my boss, really. I mean, he's always been like that, but at myself for just standing there.

LUKE: Well, yep, that is a little bit, if you think it was wrong and you didn't stand up for yourself and for the kid, then maybe that's a little bit cowardly. And are you going to do the same thing next time? Or are you going to, I mean, Marcus Aurelius would tell you to learn from your mistakes and not make the same mistake twice.

DEXTER: You're not wrong. It was cowardly. The kid's name is Jamie. He's 19, been here maybe three months, and he left a gate open that let some cattle drift.

LUKE: Well, you know, you might not know the whole story. You might have done that three or four times and been told nicely not to do it and continue to do it anyway. So maybe that kid Jamie deserves the strong wording.

DEXTER: No, that's fair. I don't know the whole history there. But it wasn't even really about the gate. My boss was going off about how Janie's generation doesn't respect anything. Doesn't know how to work. All this other stuff that had nothing to do with cattle. It turned into this whole thing about kids these days and their phones and whatever. that's the part that got under my skin. Watching this kid just take it with his head down while my boss used him as a punching bag for everything else he's mad about in the world.

LUKE: Well, what's any of that got to do with you?

DEXTER: Because I've been that kid. Eight years ago when I started here, I was Jamie, screwing up, getting yelled at. Nobody's stepping in. And I told myself back then that if I ever got to where I am now, where the younger guys look up to me, stand there and watch it happen to someone else. But that's exactly what I did today. I broke a promise to myself, and I'm trying to use this philosophy book to convince myself it was the smart move to stay quiet.

LUKE: Well, it sounds like you know whether it was the smart move or not, but just to play devil's advocate here, Jamie is 19 years old, he's an adult, and he's in the real world and a real job, and he has to learn to stand up for himself. I think we all do. So I mean, we've all had that boss that is overbearing and unreasonable, and flat out mean. And at some point, part of growth is learning how to stand up to that and to say, hey, I'm not going to let you speak to me that way. If you've got a problem with the gate, go close the fucking gate yourself.

DEXTER: You're absolutely right. And that's exactly what I've been telling myself all night. He's got to learn to handle it himself. It's not my job to fight his battles. But here's what I keep coming back to. When I was 19 and getting treated like that, I didn't have anybody show me it was okay to push back. I just learned to take it and shut down. Which is why eight years later, I'm real good at feeling nothing when I should feel something. So, yeah, maybe Jamie needs to learn to stand up for himself. But how's he supposed to learn that when everyone around him is mommeling the opposite?

LUKE: Well, it sounds like you're lying to yourself. You're not feeling nothing. You're feeling cowardly. You're feeling shame in yourself for not standing up when you saw an injustice in the world. And the stoic way to handle that would be to acknowledge it and make sure that you don't do that again in the future without dwelling on it or feeling remorse or guilt unnecessarily for a long time and wasting time that you could be being productive. So if I were you, I would take both of them aside the next time you had the opportunity and explain to the kid that he has to stand up for himself and explain to the boss that what you saw was unaccepted. That is leadership and that is the Stoic philosophy. So keep reading the book and do your best and don't beat yourself up, but move forward in a productive way.

DEXTER: Yeah, you're right. I am feeling it. I've been sitting here stewing for hours pretending I'm above it. And you just laid out exactly what I need to do, which is the scary part, because now I actually have to do it. Talk to both of them.

LUKE: That's it. Just talk to both of them. And the more you do that, the more confidence you'll have in doing that and the less scary it'll become in the future. Because this isn't something that is going to be the end of it, right? You're going to have to deal with this all throughout your life. You're going to have to stand up for yourself and for others and show leadership when there is injustice in the world. If that's who you want to be and it sounds like it is. So don't worry about it. Get some sleep. And tomorrow have those conversations and be confident and say your peace and accept the result and do what you can. But you can't change, what you can't change, you can make an attempt. And that's all you can do.

DEXTER: You know what, Luke? I needed to hear that. I really did. I've been sitting here with this book trying to find permission to do nothing. And you just called me out on it.

LUKE: Well, you're obviously not reading the book then, because it says exactly what I'm telling you. It's not a rare book. A lot of people have read meditations. And, uh, the Stoic philosophy is pretty well understood. So if what you're getting out of that book is to stay quiet and feel nothing, then we're reading different books.

DEXTER: No, you're right. I'm cherry-picking the parts that let me off the hook. The whole, except what you can't control thing. I've been using it backwards. Using it as an excuse not to try instead of his piece after I've actually done something. That's not Stoicism. That's just being a coward with a fancy excuse. Appreciate you straightening me out, Luke.

LUKE: No problem. That's what we do here at Luke and the Roost is we straighten people out. Next up on the show, we have Candy. Candy, welcome to the show.

CARL: Do you remember that show Strangers with Candy? It was this lady that was all drunk and crazy on Comedy Central. Oh, man. Yeah. Amy Sedaris, right? My sister used to watch that show all the time. I never really got into it, though. I was more of a Reno 911 person back then. But hey, Luke. I got to tell you why I'm actually calling. Because I'm sitting in my bathroom with the shower running so my kid doesn't hear me, and I'm kind of losing it here. My 14-year-old just told me she wants to move to Tucson to live with her dad and his new wife. And I think the worst part is she had this whole speech prepared like she was breaking up with me.

LUKE: You know what I always say? 911 was an inside job. So about the 14-year-old, I think that's very normal. I did that myself. I think a lot of. lot of children of divorced parents think the grass is going to be greener on the other side or just want to try to live a different lifestyle, a different life. It's a pretty normal thing. So that might hurt, but she'll probably be back when she realizes dad's house isn't as fun as she thought it was going to be.

CARL: Yeah, I mean, you're probably right. But here's the thing. I've been running my mom's bakery since I was 21, getting up at 3 in the morning single day and this girl has never wanted for anything her dad moved to Tucson three years ago with this woman who works from home doing something with marketing or whatever and now suddenly that looks better than what I'm doing like I get it the new wife doesn't smell like yeast and actually has time to do her nails but I've been busting my ass here and the way she said it Luke she wouldn't even look at me

LUKE: yeah but it's not really about you and it doesn't matter what sort of life you gave her She would still be curious and think that it was better somewhere else. That's just human nature. So don't take it personally. It's not personal. Unless you guys have some other darkness in the relationship I'm not aware of, my guess is just that it looks like more fun over there, and she wants to go see what that's like.

CARL: You're right. You're right. I mean, there's no darkness or anything like that. We get along fine, or at least I thought we did.

LUKE: Well, Take advantage of the situation. Let her do it. Let her dad take care of the kid and then that frees you up to do some stuff that maybe you wouldn't otherwise be able to do. Enjoy it while it lasts and be there for her if she wants to come back.

CARL: Okay, but see, that's where my head goes to a dark place. Because part of me is actually relieved, and that makes me feel like the worst mother in the world. Like, I could sleep past three in the morning. I could maybe go on an actual date without worrying about getting home. I've been This alone for so long that when she said it, there was this split second where I thought, oh, thank God, before the hurt even kicked in.

LUKE: Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, you're a person too, and it would be nice for you to be able to live some of your youthful years on your own. So if that's what everybody wants, if everybody's in agreement, the kid wants to go there, the dad is okay with it, and you're okay with it. It sounds like a good thing and a change for everybody. So he gets to spend more time with his daughter. You get to spend more time with yourself, and she gets to see what it's like living in other conditions. Everybody wins.

CARL: You know what? When you say it like that, it doesn't sound so pathetic. I think I've just been so stuck in this loop of work and being mom that I forgot I'm actually only 23. What? My sister Brenda keeps telling me I need to live a little, but we're not even talking right now because of some stupid fight about passwords and privacy stuff. God, I sound like a mess, don't I? But okay, yeah, maybe this is actually a good thing.

LUKE: So you're 23 years old and you have a 14-year-old daughter?

CARL: Yeah, I had her when I was nine. No, I'm sorry. God, I'm all over the place tonight. I'm 37, not 23. The bakery, I've been running it for two years since my mom had her stroke. And I'm 37.

LUKE: Okay, well, you're 37, and now you have the opportunity to be single at 37 some of your life while you're still young. I think it's great. Let her do it. Be supportive. Maybe see her on the weekends.

CARL: Very good. You're right. Yeah, you're totally right. I'm going to tell her tomorrow that if this is what she wants, we'll figure it out. Maybe I'll even get one of those dating apps everyone's always talking about. Though honestly, the thought of that terrifies me more than telling my daughter she can go.

LUKE: Tell her she can go. And, yeah, I mean, I think those dating apps are probably less fun and you're imagining that they are, but give it a shot. Especially if you haven't yet, then yeah, that's exciting. And nobody's getting hurt here. So great. It's a win for everybody. Do it and enjoy your life.

CARL: Okay, yeah. Thank you, Luke. I really needed to hear that. I've been sitting in here with the shower running so she wouldn't hear me lose it. And now I feel like maybe I'm not completely screwing this up. I'm going to go talk to her tomorrow and actually be supportive instead of making it about me.

LUKE: That sounds like a good plan, Candy. You're a good mom, and you deserve some happiness in your life. So go get it. And when dad's house sucks and she wants to come home, be ready for that. That's all. And now, ladies and gentlemen, we have to take a word from our sponsor, Squarehole. I'm going to get dark for a second. You're going to die someday. Not today, probably. But someday, and when you do, what's going to represent your business? A Craigslist post from 2020? A Google Maps pin that still says permanently closed because you forgot to update it after COVID. A nephew who knows computers but actually just has a Reddit account? Your legacy deserves better than a nephew with a Reddit account. Squarehole lets you build something that outlasts you. Something your kids can point to and say, Dad built that. They won't know it took you a lot. minutes, that's between you and Squarehole. And when your nephew says, I could have built that for you for free, you can look them in the eye and say, then why didn't you, Tyler? I asked you in 2021 and you said you were busy and you were not busy. Squarehole. Build it before Tyler has to, because Tyler is not going to. Okay, thanks to Squarehole for sponsoring this episode. Next up on the line we have Carl. Carl, welcome to the show. What's going on out there for you tonight?

CARL: Luke, hey, so I just yelled at my daughter about her car registration, and I swear to God it was my dad's voice coming out of my mouth. Like word for word what he used to say to me. You think I'm made of money? You think this shit just appears. I heard myself say it, and I just froze.

LUKE: Okay, what happened? What's the situation with the registration, and why did it cost you money?

CARL: So she's got this beat up. up Civic, right? Registrations like 200 bucks, and she asked if I could help cover it because she's been picking up extra shifts at Target, but they cut her hours, which is totally reasonable. But I just got hit with this storage facility repair bill. Some kid broke into a unit last week, busted the lock mechanism on the whole row.

LUKE: Okay, don't you have insurance on your business?

CARL: Yeah, but there's a deductible, and Ray, he's the guy I work with on weekends. He's telling me we should upgrade the whole security system while we're at it because, This is the third break-in in six months. So I'm looking at maybe 1,500 out of pocket if I do it right. But that's not even the point. The point is, I had the $200.

LUKE: Yeah, and you reacted in a negative way to your kid when she asked for the money because you're under stress, and that's a normal human thing. People say things they don't mean and react too strongly. So. So what are you going to do? Apologize and move on?

CARL: I mean, yeah. I called her back like 20 minutes later and apologized. She was cool about it.

CARL: She's a good kid. But Luke, that's not what's messing me up.

LUKE: What is messing you up?

CARL: That you sounded like your dad? Everybody sounds like their dad. No, I know that. I get that. But it's like, okay, my old man died four years ago and we barely spoke the last decade of his life because of exactly this kind of thing. He'd blow up over money, over nothing, make you feel like asking for help was this huge burden.

LUKE: Well, sometimes it can be a huge burden, but it sounds like in this case it wasn't a huge burden to you. You made a mistake, you apologized for it, and what are you going to do in the future to make sure that doesn't happen again? Like, if you don't want to be your dad or act like your dad, then you have to take steps to avoid that. And what are those steps going to be?

CARL: That's the thing. I've been taking steps for years. I go to this therapist every other week. I read all this stuff about breaking soul cycles. I've been so careful about not doing what he did. And then one bad moment, and it all just comes right back out like it was sitting there waiting.

LUKE: Yeah, well, it happens. Everybody makes a mistake once in a while and says things that they don't mean and later regret. I do it all the time, and I always have to constantly try and stop myself when I can feel the hairs standing up on the back of my neck, and I'm about to snap at somebody. And sometimes I do better than others, that's the human experience.

CARL: You're right. I know you're right. It's just, I heard Dexter earlier, you know, you know. And I felt like he was doing the same thing I do, using all this self-improvement stuff as like, I don't know, a shield or something.

LUKE: Yeah, but all this self-improvement stuff, none of it expects you to obtain this level of perfection. Right? Every single self-help book or philosophy centers around continuous improvement, an acknowledgement of when you're wrong. And it sounds like you did those things. You acknowledged that you were wrong. You called, you made a mistake. She forgave you. She knows that you weren't trying to hurt her and that you were under stress at work. So this doesn't sound like it's a thing. Just do your best to make sure this doesn't continue to happen and try to be a good person. That's all you can do.

CARL: Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I guess I'm making this bigger than it needs to be. I just got scared for a second that all the work I've been doing doesn't actually matter, you know? Like it's all still in there no matter what I do.

LUKE: Yeah, well, it is always going to be in there no matter what you do. It's not like it's ever gone. I mean, you might be able to go sit with some monks on a mountain in Tibet and meditate it away, but I suspect that it's still in there somewhere with the potential to come out. So you just keep doing what you're doing. Keep working with your therapist. Keep acknowledging when you're wrong and do the best you can to correct those instances when they arise.

CARL: Fair. I appreciate it, Luke. I think I just needed to hear somebody say it's not the end of the world, you know. I was sitting here in this office just spiraling about it.

LUKE: It is not the end of the world, Carl. You're doing decent. You're doing pretty good. So keep doing what you're doing and things will get better. Next up we have Monique. Monique, welcome to the show. What's going on with you tonight?

MONIQUE: Hey, Luke, thanks for taking my call. So I said yes to my boyfriend's proposal three days ago in front of both our families. And I'm pretty sure I don't actually want to marry him.

LUKE: Okay, well, luckily for you, you haven't signed any papers yet, so you don't have to marry him.

MONIQUE: Right, no. I know that. It's just he did it at my aunt's house during Thanksgiving dessert with like 20 people watching and everyone's already texting me about venues and my mom's crying happy tears every time she sees me and I keep looking at this ring on my finger at work, thinking, when did I stop wanting this? Was it before he asked or the second he got down on one knee in front of everybody?

LUKE: Well, it could just be jitters. Maybe you did want that, and now that it's happened, it feels real to you. Or maybe you really don't want to get married. But the advice I'm going to give you is you can't make that decision based on what everybody else is feeling, because you're the one that is getting married. It's your life. And a little bit of embarrassment over changing your mind is much safer and less harmful than a lifetime marriage that you don't want to be in.

MONIQUE: Yeah. No, you're right. I know you're right. It's just he's a good guy, you know? Like, objectively, he's nice, and he has a job and he doesn't yell at me or anything. My mom keeps saying, I'd be crazy to let him go.

LUKE: Well, what your mom says really doesn't matter, and that's a pretty low bar. He's nice, and he has a job, and he doesn't yell at you. I don't know that that's enough qualification for a lifetime commitment to one person. So I think if you're having second thoughts, there's probably a good reason for that. You're not ready for marriage. And maybe you should just tell him, hey, I reacted too quickly. This isn't something I want right now. Maybe we can revisit it in the future.

MONIQUE: That's the thing, though. I don't think I want to revisit it in the future. Like we've been together four years. And I keep waiting to feel that thing everyone talks about. That likes certainty. And it's just not there. I watch him play video games every night. And I think, is this it? Is this what I want for the next 50 years and then I feel like a bitch because he's perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong with him.

LUKE: You don't have to feel like a bitch and you don't have to want to get married and you don't have to do what your mom says and you don't have to do what he wants. All you have to do is make the best decisions you can for your own life and what you want. And right now it sounds like that's not marriage to this guy. And maybe you don't want to be with him at all and that's okay too. But it sounds like maybe here and make sure that he knows that because that's the respectful thing to do. If you said yes and he's all excited and he thinks he's getting married but you're not into it, you need to let him know. And that's going to be a hard and awkward conversation, but it's the right thing to do and you should do that sooner rather than later.

MONIQUE: You're right. God. You're right. I heard Candy earlier talking about feeling relieved about her daughter leaving, and I felt so called out because that's exactly how I feel. Like, everyone's congratulating me and I just keep thinking about how I could just keep working my shifts and go home to my own apartment and not have to pretend I care about his fantasy football league.

LUKE: Yep. If that's what you're happy with in your life right now, then that's fine. And it's acceptable and you don't have to feel guilty or wrong about that. So tell the guy you don't want to get married and reassess whether you want to be in a relationship at all. You don't have to be. And then just move forward after that.

MONIQUE: Okay. Okay. I'm going to do it. I'm going to tell him tomorrow after my shift. I've got like 20 minutes left on my break, and then I got to go back and serve hash browns. But yeah, tomorrow.

LUKE: Okay, good luck with that conversation. I hope it all works out for you. But yeah, definitely don't get married if you're not even sure you want to continue being his girlfriend. That would be insincere and put you in a bad position later in life. Next up, we've got Cliff. Cliff, welcome to the show. What would you like to talk about tonight, sir?

CLIFF: Hey, Luke. Yeah. Thanks for taking my call. So I found $47,000 in credit card debt hidden behind my ex-wife's dresser this afternoon, all in both our names, and she's been gone two years.

LUKE: That sounds odd to me.

LUKE: There's 47 large in debt, and you don't know what it's for, and you didn't know anything about it, and in two years the collections agency never came looking for you. That doesn't sound right.

CALLER: No, you're right. That does sound weird. So what happened is the statements are rolled from like 22, right before she left. I've been getting collection calls, but I thought it was just the normal stuff we had together when we split. Like maybe eight grand I've been chipping away at. I didn't know about this debt because she was handling all the bills back then. I work outside all day. She worked from home doing medical billing, so she just took care of that stuff.

LUKE: Well, if it's $47,000 today, it was probably half that two years ago, and this is compounding fees for nonpayment. I would venture to guess that you can have a lot of that forgiven if you work with a debt consolidation company, but it looks like it's, if it's valid debt, I mean, that's money that you spent some years ago with your wife. That's how it works. You're going to be on the hook for a portion of that at least.

CALLER: Yeah. No, I get that. The thing is, though, I didn't spend it. Like, I'm looking at these statements right now and it's stuff I never saw.

LUKE: Well, if you were married to the woman and your name is on the account and there were charges made on that account, then, yeah, you did spend it.

CALLER: Okay, but Luke, I'm saying I literally didn't know these cards existed. Like there's a capital one here. A discover. Two different chase cards I knew about our one joint card were used for groceries and gas. These other ones, she must have opened them and just put my name on them without telling me. I never saw the bills. I never used the cards. I didn't even know they were being opened.

LUKE: Well, I don't know. I'm not a lawyer, as I've said before. I don't know that you can reopen a divorce case like that. I'm sure a settlement was already made and all the money was already split. There was a discovery and everybody had to disclose all of the financial records. So if this was not part of that discovery, you might be able to go back to the court and say, hey, there was a fraud here and have some recourse that way. But I don't know. I would recommend that you talk to a lawyer and find out if that is valid and potentially sue her.

CALLER: Yeah. I mean, we didn't actually go through the courts. We just split up. She moved to lost cruises with some guy she met online, and we divided things ourselves. I kept the truck. She took her car. We both just walked away. We were only married three years, didn't have kids, didn't own anything together except the debt I knew about. So there was no official settlement or discovery or any of that.

LUKE: Well, then you have no recourse at all, sir, and you made a horrible mistake. And now you are going to have to deal with that and maybe talk to one of those debt consolidation companies and see how much of that debt can be forgiven.

CALLER: Jesus. Okay. So I'm just screwed then. I've been trying to buy a house, been saving up, and now I find out I'm underwater by 50 grand because she was what buying stuff online for six months before she bailed. And I just have to eat it.

LUKE: Well, you have to do more than eat it. I mean, you're not going to buy a house. If you haven't paid the bill in two years on this credit card, then your credit is destroyed. But if your name's on the account card, then that's your debt.

CALLER: Yeah, my credit's already trashed. I know that now. I've been getting rejected for loans and I couldn't figure out why because I thought I was doing everything right, paying my bills, running my business clean, staying out of trouble. And the whole time it's this. What kills me is she knew. And that's why I tell everybody don't get married. It doesn't matter how much love you're in. Just don't do it because you don't know another person. You can't. And they change and they do shady shit.

LUKE: So My recommendation to literally everybody is, don't get married. You did. You got burned. And then you split it up without going to court and having discoveries made. And now you're in trouble. So, I mean, your credit's trashed. Her credit's also trashed. And she's got the debt too. So she's not buying a house either. Your best course of action, I believe, is to talk to a debt consolidation company.

CALLER: Yeah, you're probably right. I just keep thinking about all those months before she left, how she was acting weird, distant, and I thought maybe she was just stressed about work or something. Now I'm realizing she was probably panicking because she'd racked up all this debt and didn't know how to tell me or didn't care to tell me. I don't even know which is worse.

LUKE: It doesn't really matter what she told you or how she felt. What matters is you have this debt now and you could have avoided that by being responsible in checking your credit periodically to know what it was being used for, but you didn't. And you didn't follow any legal process to be divorced. And now you're where you're at. And it's a hard lesson to learn, but you're going to have to learn it.

CALLER: You're right. I should have been checking. I just trusted her, which was stupid. I mean, we were married. I thought that meant something.

LUKE: You thought wrong, sir. No, that is incorrect. That means absolutely nothing. So, um, sorry that happened to you. And hopefully you can make a payment plan or get it settled some other way.

CALLER: Yeah. All right. Well, thanks for the reality check, I guess. I'll call one of those debt companies tomorrow and see what they can do.

LUKE: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, this is a public service announcement. Do not get married and periodically check your credit because somebody could be screwing with you. And it may or may not be somebody that you even know. So now we have to take a little break in here from one of our sponsors, okay? Here we go.

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Okay, and we are back. Let's see. We've got a returning caller tonight. Hey, Rochelle, welcome back to the show. What's happening with you tonight.

ROCHELLE: Hey, Luke. So I did it. I turned off location sharing. Like, officially, pulled the trigger this afternoon. And here's the thing. I've been sitting out here for like three hours, just...

LUKE: All right, so you're not sharing your location. Nobody knows where you're sitting. Why are you sitting there? And how is this relevant?

ROCHELLE: Because he texted me two hours ago asking if I was okay. Like, hey, you good? Haven't seen you move all day. Which means he was checking. Still checking.

LUKE: All right. So now you're off the grid. Congratulations. What are you going to do now?

ROCHELLE: I mean, honestly, I don't know. That's why I'm calling. Because I didn't text him back.

LUKE: Next on the show we have Frank. Frank, Frank, welcome to the show. What's going on out there in your life?

FRANK: Hey, Luke. Thanks for taking my call. So I just watched my boss present my entire project to the board this afternoon. Like word for word, my proposal, my numbers, even my stupid joke about sunshine and got a standing ovation while I sat in the back holding the printouts I made.

LUKE: Okay, and obviously you don't feel good about that. This is your boss. That's what bosses do.

FRANK: I mean, yeah, I get that bosses take credit. But this was different. This wasn't like he polished up a team effort or whatever. I spent three weeks on this cost-saving analysis, stayed late-running numbers, and he literally presented my slides with his name on them. He even practiced my delivery, Luke.

LUKE: That's dirty, dirty, dirty, but, uh, you know, You got paid anyway, right?

FRANK: Yeah. I got paid my same $42,000 a year to install solar panels and apparently write his presentations for him. Meanwhile, he's probably getting a bonus for my work. And the thing is, I'm trying to figure out if this is material, or if this is just me being bitter, you know? Like I do stand up on the side, and I've been workshopping this whole bit about middle management being plagiarism with a 401k, and now it actually happened, and I don't know if I'm mad or if I just got handed the perfect punchline.

LUKE: Well, both things can be true, because that is absolutely accurate. Middle management is plagiarism with a 401k. That's, like, literally the job description.

FRANK: Right? And the worst part is, I saw it coming. Like, two weeks ago, he asked to review my progress, and I walked him through everything, and there was this moment where I could feel it happening. But I just handed it over, because what else are you going to do? Say no to your

LUKE: You know, I say no to my boss literally all the time. That's what leadership is. So if you want to take control of your career and your own work and goals, and then yeah, you've got to say no sometimes, even to your boss. That's what they, when they talk about speaking truth to power, sometimes you have to actually do that.

FRANK: Okay, but you're Luke at the roost, man. You literally are your own boss. I'm 21 years old installing solar panels in Tucson. If I tell my boss, know, I'm just unemployed with two ex-wives in a Tuesday night slot at a bar that seats 40 people.

LUKE: Okay, well, there's a lot to unpack there. Uh, you're two ex-wives at 21 years old? What the, what the fuck are you doing?

FRANK: Yeah, I know how it sounds. First one was right out of high school. Lasted eight months. Second one, I met at an open mic. Thought we had this whole creative connection thing. That was done in a year. My mom says I'm practicing, but I think I'm just really bad at knowing when to walk away from which is probably why I'm still at this job watching my boss steal my work.

LUKE: Dude, you're 21 years old. You haven't had enough time to walk away from anything. So maybe it is time for a new job, but I think that you should just eat this one, because this is how the workplace works. You work for a guy, you get him the data, he presents the data, you're not in a position to be presenting data to a board, so if you're not okay with that, that's all right. But it sounds like that like in your position, that's what's expected and that's what you're paid for. So do your work and give it to your boss and let him, you know, look good. It's your job to prop him up.

FRANK: See, that's what I keep telling myself, but it doesn't sit right, because it wasn't like he asked me to pull some numbers for him. He asked me to analyze our installation efficiency across six sites and propose cost reductions.

LUKE: Great, and that was a wonderful opportunity for you to learn the of research and writing those papers. And you saw that it went well. So you're learning valuable experience in the workplace. You're being compensated for it. And you're 21 years old. So I wouldn't worry too much about any of this. Just learn what you can about the business and about business in general. And when you're ready, then move on. And you'll be able to write presentations when you are addressing the board as the supervisor or the manager or the owner or whatever it is.

FRANK: Yeah, but that's the thing, though. I'm not trying to be a manager at a solar panel company. I'm trying to do comedy. This job is supposed to be the thing that pays my rent while I work on my actual career.

LUKE: All right, then. There's no problem here. Who cares who presented the work to the, what do you expect? What do you want a cookie? You're not going to get a bonus. You're at the, you're the low man on the totem pole, and that's the way it works.

LUKE: So if it's just your job, do your job, and then on the side, do your comedy until that takes off. And if it doesn't take off, well then you've got more valuable experience for your actual career.

EARL: Okay, but I had a bit about this. Like a whole thing I'd been working on about how my boss operates, and now I watched him do the exact thing I was going to talk about on stage. Except it happened to me, and I just sat there. That's not material anymore. That's just humiliating. How am I supposed to get up there Tuesday and tell that story when the punchline is me being too chicken shit to say anything?

LUKE: Because that's what makes it real. That's what makes it good material. it actually happened to you. It's real and people can identify with it. So, yeah, workshop that material. And now you have a different place for it to come from. It's not something that you just made up as a joke. It's a joke based in the reality of your life, which makes you a better comic.

EARL: Huh. I didn't think about it that way. So you're saying the fact that I just sat there like an idiot actually makes it better?

LUKE: No, not really. I'm saying the fact that you're the self-deprecating and honesty of the joke is what makes it better. It makes it more real and relatable because everybody's been in that situation and can understand it a little bit better. And when you present that joke, since it's coming from a real place, it's going to hit with that realism.

EARL: Yeah, okay. That actually helps. Because I've been sitting here thinking, I need to quit or confront him or something, but really, I just need to tell the truth about it on stage.

LUKE: If the solar panel business, and business management is what you intend to do for your career, then yeah, maybe you need to quit. But if this is just your job while you're working on the thing that you love, then who cares? Do your job, do it as well as you can, and move on. It doesn't matter if you get to address the board or not, because theoretically, you're not going to see them again in a couple of years anyway.

EARL: You're right. I've been making this into some big thing when it's just a paycheck. The real work happens Tuesday night at the open mic, not Monday morning. some conference room.

LUKE: Well, there you go, but only one of them brings you a paycheck, so make sure you keep doing that one.

EARL: Yeah, yeah, I hear you. Show up, install the panels, cash the check, write the jokes. I can do that. Thanks, Luke.

LUKE: Yeah, no problem. My other bit of advice is don't get fucking married again. What are you doing? Jesus Christ, with you people and your marriages, stop it. Just stop it. Amber, welcome to the show. Don't get married, okay?

AMBER: Oh, God, I'm not getting married. I'm calling because I just blew up my entire life with one stupid text message, and I don't know how to fix it.

LUKE: All right, what's the text message?

AMBER: Okay, so there's this guy Derek at work. He does vehicle registration, and we've been flirting for like two months. Nothing physical, just stupid jokes about physics, because I work in the DMB records department, and he thinks it's funny when I made nerdy references. So tonight, I'm sitting here having some. and I sent him this text about collapsing wave functions, like a flirty science thing, except I sent it to his wife Michelle instead. His wife Michelle, who I have never met, but whose number is in my phone, because she called me once about Derek's schedule.

LUKE: All right, well, it sounds a bit dramatic. If you send a text message about collapsing wave functions to a random woman, well, wait a second, what? Why do you have her number? Wait, she called you once about Derek's schedule, so her number is in your phone. You saved it? I don't understand how this could have happened. But anyway, regardless, irregardless. Regardless, irregardless. I don't know. Whichever. Whatever. Here's the deal. That's not sexy. And she's just going to see that and think it's spam.

AMBER: No, no, no. You don't understand. The text said, hey, been thinking about our conversation yesterday. Pretty sure if we spent enough time together, our wave functions would definitely collapse with a winky face. Luke. That is not spam. That is clearly me hitting on her husband.

LUKE: Okay. Well, I mean, take some solace in the fact that she probably didn't save your number because she's probably not crazy. And as far as she knows, that's a text message from a stranger to the wrong number.

AMBER: Except I signed it. I wrote A at the end. And we all work in the same building. She knows who I am because Derek talks about work at home. He told me that once.

LUKE: All right. Well, who is this woman? her in person before? What she looked like? Can she kick your ass?

AMBER: I've never met her, but I've seen pictures on Derek's desk. She's like this tiny blonde yoga instructor type. I don't know if she can kick my ass, but she could definitely ruin my life at work. Derek and I work in the same county office building.

LUKE: Well, I hate to tell you this, but it sounds like you deserve it because you're trying to break up a home here, and you're messing around with a dude at an office, and everybody knows you don't do that. So you're doing a bunch of stupid shit. And maybe you deserve a smack in the face for it.

AMBER: You're right. You're absolutely right. And the worst part is, I've been lying to myself about it for two months. Like, it was just harmless fun. Like we were just friends who happened to have chemistry. But I knew exactly what I was doing.

LUKE: Okay. Well, uh, is Derek going to leave the wife for you, you think?

AMBER: No. God no. He's never even hinted at that.

LUKE: All right. It sounds like you might be in for an embarrassing, rough week. Or maybe not. never hear another word about it. But if it does come down on you, then take accountability and maybe move on to a new job. And next time, don't do this. Don't ever do it again.

AMBER: You know what's really messing me up, though? I'm sitting here terrified. Michelle's going to blow up my whole life. But part of me is also just devastated that Derek hasn't texted me. Like even now, I'm checking my phone hoping he responds, not her. How pathetic is that?

LUKE: Derek's got a wife. Derek's wife is very upset right now. now at Derek. So Derek's probably dealing with his own home life and not thinking too much about you. And that's what happens when you're the girl on the side at work. You're not important to him in his life. He's married. That's important to him in his life. So you got to, who cares what you feel like? You're the asshole here.

AMBER: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I am. And I think I knew that the whole time, but I just kept telling myself these little stories about how it was different. How we had this real connection. My mom used to say I overthink. everything, but this is an overthinking when I actually did the stupid thing.

LUKE: Yes, you did. And so did Derek. I mean, Derek's not off the hook here. He's the asshole, too, but I mean, you knew what you're doing, and you did it anyway, and you got caught, and now you have to deal with that.

AMBER: The thing that really kills me is I sent it at like 7.30, it's been three hours. So she's definitely seen it. She's just not responding. And I don't know if that's worse than her responding. You know? Like, is she screenshoting it to send to HR?

LUKE: No. She's fucking destroying her. husband, they're fighting right now, and you're breaking up their marriage. You're driving a rift in between these two married people. That's what's happening right now. She's got better things to worry about than your position. It's not about you.

AMBER: Oh, God. You're right. I've been sitting here making this about me and my embarrassment when I just detonated someone's marriage. Michelle's over there dealing with the fact that her husband's been texting another woman, and I'm worried about whether I'm going to be uncomfortable at work.

LUKE: That is correct. And cut it out. And you're probably going to end up uncomfortable at work, and you deserve that. And maybe it's time to move on.

LUKE: Because, I mean, how's work going to go now that Derek's in trouble and he's not speaking to you? And how are you going to feel either way, actually? He's not going to leave his wife, probably not on purpose anyway. She might leave him. But if he wasn't going to leave her for you, he's still not going to leave her for you. So, I mean, you got to do what you got to do, I guess.

CALLER: Yeah, I need to find a new job. I can't keep working there. Even if nobody finds out officially, I'll know. And every time I see either of them, it's just going to be this horrible reminder of what I did. And you're right. He was never going to leave her. I think I knew that too.

LUKE: Okay, well, you know what you've got to do. You've got to find yourself another job and stop flirting with married men. Unless they've had that conversation and they're open to it. It sounds like that's not the case here. Don't break up people's marriages. It's a good way to get yourself in a situation you don't want to be in. Let's see. Let's see. We're going to take one more call tonight, okay? And we're going to talk to Rick. Rick, welcome to the show. What's going on tonight?

RICK: Oh man, Luke, I got to tell you, I just spent the last three hours reading about quantum physics. And I think I broke my brain. Like, I'm sitting here at my kitchen table. It's almost midnight. And I genuinely cannot figure out if the pass is actually fixed, or if we're somehow changing it right now without knowing it.

LUKE: No, we're not changing it. It is fixed. What happened, happened, whether or not it's still happening in a timeline that we can access is a different question. But if it happened, we can't change it, because if we did, it would open us up to all sorts of paradoxes. And that can't happen. So whatever happened already happened.

RICK: Okay, but see, that's what I thought too, right? That's common sense. But then I'm reading about this delayed choice quantum eraser experiment, and Luke, I swear to God, they're showing that a particle somehow knows what measurement you're going to make on it in the future.

LUKE: And how are they showing that?

RICK: So they shoot a photon through this double slit setup.

LUKE: Right.

RICK: And normally you get an interference pattern. Because the photon goes through both slits at once, like a wave. But here's the thing. They tag the photons so you can tell which slit they went through, which destroys the interference pattern. Except then, after the photon already hit the detector, they erase that which path information.

LUKE: Uh, erase it how? Like, it's recorded on a chart and then the chart is changed somehow?

RICK: No, no. They use these beam splitters and crystals to basically make it so the entangled partner photon either keeps the witch path info or loses it, depending on which detector it hits. And this happens after the first photon already last. But when they sort the data afterwards based on what happened to the second photon, the ones where the info got erased show the interference pattern again. And the ones where it didn't, don't. It's like the photon that already hit the screen somehow knew what was going to happen to its partner later.

LUKE: Well, projecting what happens in the future is not the same as changing what happened in the past.

RICK: Right, but that's what's messing me up. If the photon acts like it went through both slits only when the information gets erased later, doesn't that mean the future measurement is affecting what already happened? Like the photon's already on the detector screen, it already did its thing. But whether it made an interference pattern or not depends on something that hasn't happened yet when it lands.

LUKE: I don't understand this one because if it hit the detector, then it's been detected already. And the next measure, would have to go back and change what happened on the detector, which would be akin to, you know, writing something down and then going back and looking at it and having the letters be in a different order. I don't see how that could happen.

RICK: No, that's the thing. When you look at the detector screen, you just see this blob of dots. It doesn't look like anything meaningful. It's only when you sort those dots afterwards, based on what happened to the entangled partner photon, that you see this blob of dots. You see some of them form an interference pattern and some don't. The pattern was always there in the data. You just couldn't see it until you knew which photons to group together. But here's what's freaking me out. Those photons hit the screen before you made the choice about whether to erase the which path information or not.

LUKE: Well, it sounds to me like it's not changing the data. It's changing the sort of the data, which is happening in real time, right? It's happening in the current time, not the past.

RICK: Yeah, okay, you're right. The sorting is happening now. But Luke, think about what that means. Each individual photon that hit that screen, it somehow already knew which group it was going to be sorted into later. The ones that are going to be in the information erased pile are already showing wave behavior, and the ones in the information kept pile are already showing particle behavior, before anyone decided which measurement to make.

LUKE: Okay. you shoot the photon through the slit and it hits the detector and then you shoot another photon through the slit and it hits the detector and then at some point later you sort that data and it shows a pattern it sounds to me like if anything is being changed it's not what hit the detector it's the sort operation that happens afterwards so i'm failing to understand how it relates to This is not changing the past. It's changing the current.

RICK: No, but. Okay. Let me try this differently. When the photon hits the detector, it's already behaving one way or the other. It either went through both slits like a wave or went through one slit like a particle. That's already determined by the time it lands.

LUKE: Correct. It's determined when it lands based on whether or not it was measured, right? It's the measurement of it that determines whether it's going to be the wave or the particle formation.

RICK: Right. But in the delayed choice version, the measurement that determines whether its wave or particle happens to the photon, the entangled partner, and that happens the first one already landed. That's the delayed choice part. You're deciding whether to measure which path information after the first photon is already on the detector. And somehow, the photon that already landed matches whatever you're about to do to its partner.

LUKE: So what you're about to do? So, Whatever we do to the entangled partner in the present also changes the state of the partner in the past is what this experiment is showing?

RICK: That's what it looks like. Yeah. Or, I mean, that's the part I can't wrap my head around. The experiment shows that the photon that already hit the detector will be grouped with the interference pattern if you erase the witch path info from its partner later and grouped with a particle pattern if you don't. Like its behavior when it's landed was somehow dependent on a choice you haven't made yet.

LUKE: Okay, so how do you erase the which path info?

RICK: You use what they call a quantum eraser, basically another beam splitter that the entangled partner photon goes through. If you send it through that beam splitter, the which path information gets scrambled, erased. You can't tell which slit the original photon went through anymore. But if you don't send it through, if you measure it directly, you preserve that information. And here's the thing. You can make that choice after the first photon already landed.

LUKE: But you cannot make that choice after the first photon was measured, right? So if it was already measured at one state and then they run it through this beam splitter device, the quantum eraser, would it change the result of the previous measurement?

RICK: No. See? That's the thing. You're not re-measuring the first photon. The first photon here.

RICK: hit the detector, that measurement is done. That position is recorded. What you're doing is measuring its entangled partner. Now, if the photon has already hit the detector and been measured, is it still entangled?

LUKE: Yeah, that's okay. That's actually a really good question. Because normally when you measure one entangled particle, the entanglement collapses, right? But in this setup, the first photon hitting the detector isn't a complete measurement of the entangled system. It only tells you where it landed, not which path it took. The which path information is still encoded in the partner photon.

RICK: But that doesn't make sense. I don't see how that can work because if it's collapsed into a non-entangled state after the first measurement, it's they're no longer entangled. So the which path information but it wouldn't still be at the current point, right?

LUKE: You know what? You're right. That's exactly what's messing me up. Because yeah, if measuring one particle collapses the entanglement, then they're not entangled anymore when you get to the second measurement. The Witchpath info would just be sitting there in the partner photon as classical information at that point, not quantum information. But the experiment works.

RICK: Well, there's more that makes this not make sense because If the initial photon was measured at the time of detection, right? It hit the detector. That's the measurement that collapsed the state. The entangled partner, then by definition, would have also already been measured. So you're remeasuring something that's already been measured.

LUKE: Oh shit. Yeah. You're absolutely right. If they're entangled and you measure one, you've measured both. That's the whole point of entanglement.

RICK: Right. So then you can't just re-measure it later and say that it, I don't understand the experiment or what it was trying to prove or how that that results in changing something that's already happened because what happened happened to the first photon and the entangled photon at the same time.

LUKE: Yeah, no. You're okay. So either I'm completely misunderstanding how the delayed choice quantum eraser works or the article I was doing that pop science thing where they make it sound more paradoxical than it actually is. Because you're right, if the measurement collapses the entanglement, then the second measurement is just measuring something that's already determined. There's no retroactive anything. And now, I'm sitting here thinking about all the times I've heard people talk about this experiment like it proves you can change the past. And maybe that's just not what it shows at all.

CALLER: That's changing the future. And that is possible. That is absolutely possible. Yeah, you're right. And we did. I apologized. He apologized. We're playing together again. But I guess I wanted the quantum stuff to mean something bigger than it does.

LUKE: Well, I'm sorry to break your quantum dreams, but as the armchair that I claim to be here. I'm not qualified to make any opinion or theory on any of this, because I understand it about as much as anybody, which is not at all. So take what I say for what it's worth, which is nothing. But the experiment as you described can't work the way that you described it.

CALLER: Well, that makes me feel better. Honestly, I've been sitting here for three hours thinking I was too dumb to understand it. But maybe nobody really understands it. Like, I can read the words wave particle duality and quantum entanglement, but that doesn't mean my brain can actually picture what's happening.

LUKE: Well, I think your brain can picture what's happening. I mean, you could watch a YouTube video and see a motion graphic of what's happening. It's not that hard a concept to grasp the what. The why, however, is nobody understands.

CALLER: Right. Okay, so I can see the double slid experiment animation. I can watch the particle go through both slits until you measure it, and then suddenly it picks one. I can see that happening. But why does observation collapse the wave function? That's the part that makes my head hurt. Like, what is it about measuring something that forces it to choose? Is the universe actually paying attention to whether we're looking or not?

LUKE: Well, if you can figure that out, sir, there's probably a Nobel Prize in it for you. And when you do, be sure to let the rest of us know.

CALLER: Yeah. I'll call it you back from Stockholm. But seriously, though, I think what got me tonight was realizing how much I want there to be some kind of, I don't know, cosmic loophole. Some way that the stuff we regret isn't just locked in forever. My girlfriend's family is coming over next Sunday, and her mom still brings up this thing I said at Christmas two years ago. And I just keep thinking, man, if only I could go back to that moment.

LUKE: Well, you can take solace in the fact that what happened isn't locked in forever. It's locked in in the past. And the only thing that matters is what is happening today now at this moment because nothing else is accessible to us, even with a quantum eraser.

CALLER: That's, yeah, that's actually kind of freeing when you put it that way. Like, I can't change what I said at Christmas, but I can change how I show up next Sunday. I can be better with her mom this time.

LUKE: That's right, sir. It sounds like we've got to the bottom of the this.

CALLER: Yeah, we did. Thanks, Luke. I'm going to close the laptop and actually get some sleep. And maybe skip the quantum physics videos for a while.

LUKE: All right, sir. Well, thanks for the call. That was an interesting one. Glad we could get it all sorted here. Look at the Roost. Well, thank you for another great show. I hope you all have a wonderful rest of your weekend. I know it's just about over now, and we will talk to you again tomorrow. Bye-bye.